New to BJJ...How hard should I roll ?? (old thread, 2010)

[Jbeefnet1771]

I was a high level (wrestled collegiate D1) wrestler 20+ years ago. Brown belt now. I dont wrestle much these days, but I can still smash the non BJJ'ers in takedown, but I wouldnt consider myself half what I was way back. Amazes me how a young , college level wrestler will give me fits with some basic BJJ training. Can be tough on the ego but it's good to accept that and use more BJJ (and more effort to) and use it to learn and get better. Unfortunately BJJ is so effective, many stop grinding as hard at practice once they are good. But against a wrestler and at the highest level BJJ comp, you better grind like a wrestler does or get beat! Anyways, my advice is to mix it up. Dont stop going hard, but also pick rolls where you'll use the techniques of the day and work on some flow to. Dont go hard all of the time. I hope that's where your professor is coming from.

 

[sb413197]

Does a leg drag and near side underhook pass count as a grind pass?

That should be totally fine, and if he sits down then you are fine playing top.

Basic rule: don't do stuff that has no technical value and hurts your partner - pushing your fist into his throught with no valid choke, grinding the blade of foream into the face, grinding your knee on his face/head (instead of lower chest/belly), exploding into submissions, rear-naked-choking someone's face/nose, grinding your knee in his groin during knee-slice passes, neck cranks done with little control that shouldn't work, anything that involves slamming/impact etc.

Pressure is always good and legit and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I actually think pressure passes can be safer, because you can apply it slow and steadily - never hurt anyone with a nice slow/steady pressure pass. Speedy passes are fine too, done correctly.

 

[rmongler]

Basic rule: don't do stuff that has no technical value and hurts your partner

Hurting your opponent has lots of technical value though.

 

[jack36767]

That should be totally fine, and if he sits down then you are fine playing top.

Basic rule: don't do stuff that has no technical value and hurts your partner - pushing your fist into his throught with no valid choke, grinding the blade of foream into the face, grinding your knee on his face/head (instead of lower chest/belly), exploding into submissions, rear-naked-choking someone's face/nose, grinding your knee in his groin during knee-slice passes, neck cranks done with little control that shouldn't work, anything that involves slamming/impact etc.

Pressure is always good and legit and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I actually think pressure passes can be safer, because you can apply it slow and steadily - never hurt anyone with a nice slow/steady pressure pass. Speedy passes are fine too, done correctly.

Thank you, that's how I try to roll, and that's why I was surprised because it's been a while since I was told or felt I rolled with the extra-curricular type stuff

 

[sb413197]

Hurting your opponent has lots of technical value though.

Touche

 

[trustdoesntrust]

That should be totally fine, and if he sits down then you are fine playing top.

Basic rule: don't do stuff that has no technical value and hurts your partner - pushing your fist into his throught with no valid choke, grinding the blade of foream into the face, grinding your knee on his face/head (instead of lower chest/belly), exploding into submissions, rear-naked-choking someone's face/nose, grinding your knee in his groin during knee-slice passes, neck cranks done with little control that shouldn't work, anything that involves slamming/impact etc.

Pressure is always good and legit and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I actually think pressure passes can be safer, because you can apply it slow and steadily - never hurt anyone with a nice slow/steady pressure pass. Speedy passes are fine too, done correctly.

I feel like there are three different but related concepts: pressure, strength, and intensity. When told you're rolling too hard, what they probably mean is that you're going at a different intensity. Over the years, I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about somebody being too strong or applying stifling pressure, but I've heard (and certainly received) numerous complaints about somebody being too intense. You can apply solid pressure without going at high intensity, and you can utilize strength without mauling your sparring partners.

 

[sb413197]

I don't doubt it. It seems like most bigger gyms have a couple people with an interest in weight lifting, but even the strongest don't go heavy or look "big" compared to people at the gym.

Interesting point - I kind of backed off lifting for the last few years (never stopped, but gave it less attention), having been a former amateur powerlifter. I'm a purple belt now and have really been getting back into it - deadlift is back to 515 again now and on its way back up towards my old PRs. From reading on here it seems that purple belt is when a lot of guys start getting back into strength training again - you feel comfortable about your control and manage your cardio better, and really appreciate having that strength again.

 

[RJ Green]

My old football coach used to say "there's a difference between hurt and injured."

I've always liked that quote, even if I did give myself TBI for the glory of a child molester.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Hurting your opponent has lots of technical value though.

Hurting is just a byproduct of your body being forced into doing mechanically incorrect things. I never try to hurt anyone, but I sure as hell try to put them in mechanically weak positions. Which, well, hurt.

 

[Curly Peibce]

When someone tells me that i'm using too much strength or rolling to hard when i'm not really using the presh I throw off my Gi top and start doing lat spreads until everybody leaves the building.

 

[magick]

I'll accept that you might not be the best natural athlete around, but athleticism is something you can develop and having gone through the rigors (and not being that far removed from) a collegiate wrestling program I'd be pretty surprised if you weren't stronger, faster, and had better reaction times than most of the people you roll with at BJJ. That's athleticism, even if you had to develop it the hard way. That's what's germane to the conversation: does this guy see you doing things athletically that his people can't do, and does he resent that? The fact that you had to earn your way there wouldn't really matter if he's an egotistical LARPer intent on maintaining his own imagined superiority.

I agree with this.

Not to be pedantic, but this is how Merriam-Webster defines athletic-

Definition of athletic

1. 1: of or relating to athletes or athletics <an athletic scholarship> <athletic teams> <athletic events>
   
   
2. 2a : characteristic of an athlete <athletic talent> <a strong, athletic build>b : vigorous, active <an athletic lifestyle>c : active or gifted in sports, games, or exercises <He's not very athletic.>
   
   
3. 3: used by athletes <athletic shoes/equipment> <the school's athletic fields>
   

If you were a D1 wrestler, then you're probably athletic, since you were an athlete. Your natural talent may not have been on par with others, but you were an athlete nonetheless.

And that puts you WAY ABOVE randos who have never worked up to high level competition in a sport in sheer ability.

I suppose there's not much for you to do besides just laugh at those who get their egos hurt and blame it on you spazzing.

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

@jack36767 I think people don't know what they are looking at sometimes.

For example, there was this guy that used to come to kick boxing / mma sparring years ago that had 150 pounds on me. He played college football. Despite his size, he could jump kick, kick over his head, breakfall, bob and weave... it was terrible. So we are sparring. I'm on the side lines watching, standing next to the Judo coach who is also an old karate man. He looks at me and says, "I don't see what the problem is. Why is that guy beating everyone? Just kick him in the knee."

It irritated me. I wanted to say, "then you get up there and show us how it's done because last time he hit me like I meant it, I had trouble shoveling snow six months later."

When I roll now, I do a lot of half guard. I get the darce killer sweep on people at every gym I visit. I get it on purple belts. I get it on people bigger than myself. I get it all the time. I get it because people think you are suppose to wizzer all underhooks no matter what, and that I'm able to roll them over because of the advantage my fatness gives me. Most people are not capable of understanding the darce killer sweep unless it is explained with the authority of a black belt. They will just feed it over and over and over like broken robots, because someone with authority told them to always put the wizzer on all underhooks. They'd rather tell me to "use technique" than size. Then they'll feed the same stupid sweep again.

When someone tells you that you are going too hard, even though you aren't hurting anyone, what they mean is, "you look bad because you aren't making me feel good by retreating through the prescribed list of customary, non pressure techniques. Please act right."

Do have a link or so ething to this sweep, ive just started back traini g after a few years off and keep fi di g myself gettinh caught with the darce from half guard (by 1 person in particular)

 

[SummerStriker]

Do have a link or so ething to this sweep, ive just started back traini g after a few years off and keep fi di g myself gettinh caught with the darce from half guard (by 1 person in particular)

I couldn't find it. It's in here somewhere:

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

I couldn't find it. It's in here somewhere:

Cheers mate

 

[Kaffe]

I feel like in a lot of gyms that don't practise modern jiu jitsu.
They tend to see modern jiu jitsu moves as uncontrolled quick and spazzy.

for example standing passes are inherently faster and more explosive than slow pressure passing.

warning signs seem to be: starting all the rolls from the knees or inside closed guard.

Funnily enough I have the exact opposite experience. In the worst gyms fast passing has been seen as technical, while low and slow has been seen as too rough, intense and muscular.

I remember being told to be more technical by a blue belt "instructor" in one club I visited after one of the sweetest over unders I have ever performed.

My warning sign is when people talk about being more technical without being able to go into specifics. That almost always indicates that they are clueless posers/pussies/wankers.

 

[Corso10tx]

I rolled with an older 200# brown belt in his 50s and it was rather uncomfortable because he would keep stopping me and said I was too rough because I was using my speed. The problem is that He will use his weight on me if I stopped using my speed, I am 130#. So I changed my game and practice my escapes but he correct me again for exposing my back because I was practicing worst position/side control. I was told not to roll hard.

 

[Smato_rules]

I had something somewhat similar happen when I first started at my new gym. They are nova uniao gi only and I came from a no gi top game heavy gym. I got a few taps on some blue belts and reversals, all while going what I thought was moderate intensity and certainly not higher than my opponents. After getting a talk by the coach I did guard only for a while and actually had some blue who was a bit larger than me try to fight me because I swept him from bottom side. Anyways long story short I played dead fish for a while and tried to work my guard and escapes and eventually got back to my old game. I could have been a bit jerky due to time off but still claim I wasn’t going too hard.

I guess it’s just not a good look To go into a new gym and do well, idk. I’d find another gym or let them beat you up for a month

 

[Corso10tx]

I had something somewhat similar happen when I first started at my new gym. They are nova uniao gi only and I came from a no gi top game heavy gym. I got a few taps on some blue belts and reversals, all while going what I thought was moderate intensity and certainly not higher than my opponents. After getting a talk by the coach I did guard only for a while and actually had some blue who was a bit larger than me try to fight me because I swept him from bottom side. Anyways long story short I played dead fish for a while and tried to work my guard and escapes and eventually got back to my old game. I could have been a bit jerky due to time off but still claim I wasn’t going too hard.

I guess it’s just not a good look To go into a new gym and do well, idk. I’d find another gym or let them beat you up for a month

Absolutely! I went to worst position like giving my back to practice but he being a brown belt stopped and started correcting me for giving the back.

 

[Gandhi]

How do you know if u are going to har

IMO there's no such thing as "too hard" - that is defined by your cardio. If you can keep up the pace, great.

There IS such a thing as TOO ROUGH though. A lot of wrestlers will try to pass the guard by grinding their forearm into your face, posting off your head, slamming, can-openers etc etc. I know how to deal with (better anyway) this now after years of training but it took a long time to learn how to do that - I used to dread training with wrestlers because I would invariably end up with bumps and bruises. I'll bet that you do stuff like that without even realizing it. Or maybe not, and your gym is being weird about you training hard.

I would suggest you play guard in training, all the time. You can play a sweep-oriented game to get back to your comfort zone but always start in guard - hard to complain if you're doing that. You'll need to get good at guard anyway and it will be a weak point for you for a long time. It's tricky for guys coming from other backgrounds - your scrambling, takedowns, balance, cardio etc are probably already beyond many blackbelts, but other stuff is very much white-belt level - work your weak points and keep improving your ability to use your strong points. Maybe look at training less of a "win-lose" kind of thing and more of just a learning experience to improve in different areas - although obviously training is competitive, it isn't a competition.

But kinda hard to say without seeing it in person. The issue might be in part with the gym too.

How do you know if u used too much strength?

If you are tired after the roll

Bernardo Faria

 

[Foppa21]

I've been training BJJ for about six weeks and I'm completely addicted. With that being said I'm a little confused about how intense I should go when I grapple. A little about me; I'm a former Marine and current LEO. I've trained alot in different Self Defense and hand to hand tactics. I love the fact that in BJJ you roll or spar daily, to use the techniques you've learned.

As I train more I am noticing different training partners roll at different levels of intensity. Particularly there is on guy who goes at about 110%. He regularly uses forearms across the face, uses elbows to push of and yesterday even used his fist to push my face down on to the mat. When going for subs, especially arm bars he backs into them 100%. I've grappled everyone in my gym and no one else is like that. My instructor even sometimes told us not to do these types of things, while teaching a technique, because that is "dirty" Jiu Jitsu. this guy obviously doesn't take heed to it. Oh yeah He's also a white belt (3 stripe I believe). No else in my gym rolls this way. (At least the ones I've rolled with)

When ever I roll, I try to use technique and stregnth, as much as I can. I train cause I enjoy it and to learn things I can apply to my profession. To those of you who have been Grappling for a while how do you handle people like this?? or is this how it's supposed to be when you roll in practice? I could do these things also, but I'm not trying to hurt anyone and I don't wanna any injuries either, which is what this willi eventually lead. I haven't said anything to him about it, cause everyone else he rolls with seems to deal with the same thing and doesn't say anything either. Plus I'm the new guy so I don't complain. Any comments would be appreciated.

You should talk to your instructor or training partner. You may think you're going light but in reality you're not. At 6 weeks, few if any have a sense of how hard they're going. Heck I know guy that have trained for years that still don't know lol.

There shouldn't be any forearms or elbowing. I wouldn't even really push the face with a palm let alone a fist. Cross faces, I'm ok with them. It's a form of control.