New to BJJ...How hard should I roll ?? (old thread, 2010)

[SummerStriker]

If you are training with self defense bjj types they would just claim that athleticism might work on the mat but is useless on the street.
The serious sport guys are accepting of using strength.

I mean, there are weight classes in the game but not in real life. Being the strongest 150 pound dude at NAGA doesn't mean shit to some 280 pound gym rat that's been squatting for 10 years to overcome his insecurity about his thin legs.

Do you imagine your fights are with people you picked or with people who picked you?

A bouncer I used to know was that 150 pound NAGA champ. He'd walk off whenever someone was in need of an ass kicking, let one of the other bouncers try to talk him down, walk around the whole floor, and then no matter what the situation had escalated or deescalated to, he'd flying slam into their back and try to bowl them over while putting on an RNC.

It worked just fine on huge people, but then that doesn't really qualify as self defense either.

 

[yetanother]

I mean, there are weight classes in the game but not in real life.

There are absolute weight divisions in BJJ.

 

[SummerStriker]

There are absolute weight divisions in BJJ.

only the realist of real dudes compete in that.

 

[yetanother]

only the realist of real dudes compete in that.

I always fight in the absolutes when possible. It's a waste of time and money not too.

 

[chubbman]

telling some one athletic not to use there athleticism is like telling a fat guy not to use his weight to pin someone down. why would you take away someones strengths? as long as you are not hurting anyone, you are not rolling to hard.

 

[SummerStriker]

telling some one athletic not to use there athleticism is like telling a fat guy not to use his weight to pin someone down. why would you take away someones strengths? as long as you are not hurting anyone, you are not rolling to hard.

If you didn't notice, martial arts are mostly about ego gratification. That's why people who are the biggest assholes talk so much about humility and honor.

Don't make people feel bad.

 

[Codger]

Telling someone to not over-rely on their natural attributes so they get better at the technique side is fine. It's advice I give myself.

 

[jamiejamie6661]

The biggest spaz I ever trained with regularly (I mean still spazzing after 1+ year of training), had no idea he was spazzing. Furthermore, he was more sensitive than anyone I trained with of other people's intensity. E.g. He thought someone shrimping and moving quickly to reguard was that person going "hard", and he would spaz out in response.

As has been mentioned, there are really only two likely descriptions of your situation:
1) You are a spaz
2) The coach doesn't know what he is looking at

I didn't see if you answered this, but the legitness of your coach, would be a good way of deciding which option is likely.

 

[jack36767]

The biggest spaz I ever trained with regularly (I mean still spazzing after 1+ year of training), had no idea he was spazzing. Furthermore, he was more sensitive than anyone I trained with of other people's intensity. E.g. He thought someone shrimping and moving quickly to reguard was that person going "hard", and he would spaz out in response.

As has been mentioned, there are really only two likely descriptions of your situation:
1) You are a spaz
2) The coach doesn't know what he is looking at

I didn't see if you answered this, but the legitness of your coach, would be a good way of deciding which option is likely.

I also have explained in detail how I know I wasn't

 

[Daniel Fox]

The biggest spaz I ever trained with regularly (I mean still spazzing after 1+ year of training), had no idea he was spazzing. Furthermore, he was more sensitive than anyone I trained with of other people's intensity. E.g. He thought someone shrimping and moving quickly to reguard was that person going "hard", and he would spaz out in response.

As has been mentioned, there are really only two likely descriptions of your situation:
1) You are a spaz
2) The coach doesn't know what he is looking at

I didn't see if you answered this, but the legitness of your coach, would be a good way of deciding which option is likely.

I don't understand why everyone is so quick to judge Jack36767, and immediately assume that he is a spaz. For Christ sake the guy was a Division I collegiate wrestler. If you are a wrestler everyone automatically assumes that you are a spaz. Yes, as a whole wrestlers do train harder and more aggressively, however if we were uncontrolled spazs like everyone thinks we are, how would we be able to compete? We would be injured all the time! Wrestlers may be more aggressive, however we look after the safety and welfare of our teammates and training partners. In my opinion the better the wrestler you are training with the less likely you are to get hurt. I do not doubt the truthfulness of his story, and whether people want to acknowledge it or not, there are many BJJ schools (NOT ALL) that are anti-wrestling. It would not surprise me if a mediocre high school wrestler who has something to prove was a spaz, but someone at Jack62767 level is probably safer to train with than most white belts.

 

[haji]

BJJ only works because you can train with intensity without hurting other people. If you take away that aspect you have Aikido. A thing where everything works on paper but only when your opponent moves the way you want them to move.

YES!
Sure if the other guy weighs 130 and you are 190 (or he is 70 years old and you are 40, etc) go light. Otherwise get after it.

 

[Ryoto Machida]

I really love my gym. There's a new white belt who was a collegiate wrestler. Best test for my guard! We have a strong competition mentality, although we do have a number of hobbyists, which is cool. Our instructor takes the reigns on matching up all the rolls. He doesn't let the hobbyists get killed, and he makes sure the competitors get tested. Plus, he know which upper belts are mature enough not to kill the hobbyist white belts. It's pretty ideal

Unfortunately I hear about too many schools that are too much one or the other.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ehhhh they're prob just trying to come up with a reason the new guy is smashing them.

Most likely. Especially if they're 'self defense' oriented, that usually is an indicator of ego in my experience (since competition beats the ego out of you, and self defense guys usually don't compete a lot). What rank are you in BJJ? Sadly, some people still don't understand that grappling skills are transferable and a rolling style they might not question in a purple or brown belt they might say is too intense for a white belt to be using, even if that white belt is a high level grappler from some other discipline. It could also be a case of related intellectual laziness, e.g. 'this white belt is smashing a bigger blue belt, he must be going too hard' in which case only you getting tapped would be satisfactory that you were rolling at the right level. It's too bad there isn't a better school nearby, I might just go to the MMA gym if the situation doesn't improve.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I really love my gym. There's a new white belt who was a collegiate wrestler. Best test for my guard! We have a strong competition mentality, although we do have a number of hobbyists, which is cool. Our instructor takes the reigns on matching up all the rolls. He doesn't let the hobbyists get killed, and he makes sure the competitors get tested. Plus, he know which upper belts are mature enough not to kill the hobbyist white belts. It's pretty ideal

Unfortunately I hear about too many schools that are too much one or the other.

I don't like this term 'hobbyist' so much. It feels more like an excuse to be bad than anything. BJJ is not, mostly, about getting a good workout or socializing. Those are ancillary benefits, but the core of it is about fighting, whether that's sport, self defense, or MMA. If you're going to come to BJJ, you should be interested in getting good at fighting within the limited realm circumscribed, and if you aren't you should find some other hobby. What hobbyist should mean is that you might not compete, probably don't do outside S&C for BJJ, and that you don't have an ego about getting beat by the serious competitors. If should not mean that you don't show up and roll to the best of your abilities, or that you expect people to take it easy on you or expect the coach to coddle you. No one would think it was okay to be in a band and not care about playing your instrument well, or go to yoga and not care about stretching and mindfulness. Why people think it should be acceptable to go to jiu jitsu and not care about getting good at grappling against a resisting opponent is beyond me. This is not to say that upper belts need to crush white belts or huge dudes need to crush small dudes, but if you show up to class and roll with someone better than you you should expect to get it put on you a bit.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Oh I agree. Like i said the weird vibe was the instructor and how he acted The Who time and after, I've never encountered someone above purple with that kind of vibe or attitude.

On a side note note, I wish more former college football and basketball players would get into bjj and mma. That way the stupid fucks can see some real athletes and stop whining about the "athlete" wrestlers . Though the martial arts jargon and excuse making would be funny

In all fairness, weren't you a D1 or D2 collegiate wrestler? You saying you're not athletic is laughable. You might not be athletic compared to LeBron James (or Jordan Burroughs), but compared the average BJJ guy you're probably at the upper end of athleticism.

 

[jack36767]

In all fairness, weren't you a D1 or D2 collegiate wrestler? You saying you're not athletic is laughable. You might not be athletic compared to LeBron James (or Jordan Burroughs), but compared the average BJJ guy you're probably at the upper end of athleticism.

No im not, it's not false humility, I walked on originally and earned my way to competing for a starting position. While there is always the might have beens. I have actually shocked many VERY good coaches and teammates with what I accomplished despite very real athletic limitations. While my success most definitely had a ceiling that honestly I would have overcome, It's why I don't have time for the athleticism excuse. I'm an athlete in that I trained all the time but not athletic in any sense at all. It is not laughable, and there are plenty of qualified people who can verify it

In fact that's the weirdest thing I've encountered since graduation, getting treated like one of the talented jocks who didn't have to work the way other people did, both in training and in the real world

 

[Uchi Mata]

No im not, it's not false humility, I walked on originally and earned my way to competing for a starting position. While there is always the might have beens. I have actually shocked many VERY good coaches and teammates with what I accomplished despite very real athletic limitations. While my success most definitely had a ceiling that honestly I would have overcome, It's why I don't have time for the athleticism excuse. I'm an athlete in that I trained all the time but not athletic in any sense at all. It is not laughable, and there are plenty of qualified people who can verify it

In fact that's the weirdest thing I've encountered since graduation, getting treated like one of the talented jocks who didn't have to work the way other people did, both in training and in the real world

I'll accept that you might not be the best natural athlete around, but athleticism is something you can develop and having gone through the rigors (and not being that far removed from) a collegiate wrestling program I'd be pretty surprised if you weren't stronger, faster, and had better reaction times than most of the people you roll with at BJJ. That's athleticism, even if you had to develop it the hard way. That's what's germane to the conversation: does this guy see you doing things athletically that his people can't do, and does he resent that? The fact that you had to earn your way there wouldn't really matter if he's an egotistical LARPer intent on maintaining his own imagined superiority.

 

[jack36767]

I'll accept that you might not be the best natural athlete around, but athleticism is something you can develop and having gone through the rigors (and not being that far removed from) a collegiate wrestling program I'd be pretty surprised if you weren't stronger, faster, and had better reaction times than most of the people you roll with at BJJ. That's athleticism, even if you had to develop it the hard way. That's what's germane to the conversation: does this guy see you doing things athletically that his people can't do, and does he resent that? The fact that you had to earn your way there wouldn't really matter if he's an egotistical LARPer intent on maintaining his own imagined superiority.

Fair enough I see your point, on the bright side, second time visiting was better, it was with a different instructor. So I have 3 more sessions before I decide, like I said the vibe was off but if the people are cool and the other instructors are cool I'll consider staying

 

[RJ Green]

I'll accept that you might not be the best natural athlete around, but athleticism is something you can develop and having gone through the rigors (and not being that far removed from) a collegiate wrestling program I'd be pretty surprised if you weren't stronger, faster, and had better reaction times than most of the people you roll with at BJJ. That's athleticism, even if you had to develop it the hard way. That's what's germane to the conversation: does this guy see you doing things athletically that his people can't do, and does he resent that? The fact that you had to earn your way there wouldn't really matter if he's an egotistical LARPer intent on maintaining his own imagined superiority.

 

[jamiejamie6661]

I also have explained in detail how I know I wasn't

I don't understand why everyone is so quick to judge Jack36767, and immediately assume that he is a spaz.

Fair. Maybe "spaz" was the wrong word.

More accurately, I mean, rolling harder than is normal at that gym. My point was that people often have a poor idea of how hard they roll.

Regardless, I maintain my point. Either you are rolling harder than you think, or the coach doesn't know what he is looking at.