Money aside, what is wrong with Trump's wall?

[Fawlty]

I haven't railed on them in a way that I haven't railed on anyone else who dismisses an idea/question because of the origin of the idea/question rather than it's merits. When I rail on the right for dismissing ideas from the left just because they're from the left, I brand them with the same label.

Unfortunately, plenty of people are mindless anti-Trump bots. They are irrational. I've been saying this since he announced his candidacy - that people need to stop writing him and his ideas off just because he spent the 2nd half of his career on reality t.v. But they didn't and because they didn't take him seriously, they're spending their time now trying to come up with explanations for why they were so wrong.

I see the wall the same way. Trump said it so the knee jerk reaction is that it's implausible followed by arguments to justify the emotional response. But, imo, if you stop and think it through a wall is an effective deterrent if you can find a way to do cost effectively. That's the premise of this hypo - assuming that if could be done without a financial issue would it still be a good idea. So I answered it.

AS for people who would oppose a Kasich wall being the same as the people who would oppose a Trump wall - sure, if we're referencing people on the left who are anti-everything aimed at reducing illegal immigration, except increased business penalties. But since Trump is the one who said it, we're dealing with the specific anti-Trump shallowness of thought.

And a wall wouldn't hurt families. They can simply pay to enter legally and visit their families...like everyone normally does. As for the economy, if you're referencing the effects of illegal labor on the economy...perhaps it is beneficial to the nation, in the long run, to reduce those effects. Cheap, illegal labor might be a barrier to innovation.

Ultimately, if there's plenty to discuss other than the money...people should discuss it rather than blanket writing it off because of a barrier that may/may not be manageable.

No sale.

 

[panamaican]

No sale.

I didn't expect one.

 

[TheFirstEMP]

Google the 40%. Start there. I'm not your teacher.


It's called being smuggled in you moron

Makes a claim and expects others to find a source. Ya, those stats are BS.

 

[Rod1]

No, but if people keep breaking into your store then most people put up some form of deterrent. Barred windows, stronger locks, those metal grates that they pull down after closing up.

Shoplifting requires one solution, breaking and entering requires another.

You think that most illegals cross through the non-walled areas?

You guys crack me the fuck up, i would be surprised if any of you have actually visited the area once in your lifetime.

 

[Rod1]

Lol. Get out. Illegals don't just walk across the borders. 40% of our illegals (at least) fly here. 30 of Mexicans fly here. Roughly 90-95 of all illegal Mexicans here arrived here in an automobile or boat

Meaning what's the point of building a giant super wall that will keep at most 5% of the problem at bay. 5% at most.

Such a stupid idea lol

Shh dont break their circlejerk.

 

[Rod1]

I think we should build a moat too in case they get over the wall, filled with sharks and crocodiles, maybe a mine field after that.

If anyone makes it through all that then fuck it, they deserve to be let in.

Its called the Rio Bravo.

 

[Rod1]

It's a hypothetical. Criticizing the premise of the hypo doesn't make sense to me. Isn't this how plenty of problems get solved?

If X wasn't a factor, would Y still be a good idea? If "yes" then can we find a way to deal with X and make it less of a factor? If "no" then let's find something else.

If a wall is an effective strategy, money aside, then you can ask the next question which is "Is there a smart way to handle the money aspect?" That's another yes/no question. If the answer is "no" then the project lacks merit. But if people never even explore the possibility of "yes" then they're closing a door irresponsibly.

Lots of great ideas arise precisely because people try to find a way to get to a good outcome by addressing the biggest hurdle in a more creative way. The money is the biggest hurdle here but the money isn't the idea. It's the barrier to the idea.

There are externalities to a wall beyond the economic cost.

You may as well say that if money is not an issue you could pay 1 million dollars to every illegal to go back home and stay there.

 

[panamaican]

You think that most illegals cross through the non-walled areas?

You guys crack me the fuck up, i would be surprised if any of you have actually visited the area once in your lifetime.

Well, I didn't say that so I'm not sure where you're going.

I said breaking and entering requires one solution and shoplifting requires another. Your post was that responding to shoplifting by closing the store is a bad idea. I'm just pointing out that illegal entry isn't the same type of crime as shoplifting, it's more like breaking and entering. And when a shopkeeper encounters breaking and entering, they respond with more physical barriers.

In fact, they gradually increase the strength of those barriers until they find an effective level or they do indeed close down the store.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Naive children indeed

The guy who believes Noah fit two of every animal on a wooden arc is calling people who question whether a massive wall that might be circumvented is a worthy investment naive children.

That's rich.

 

[Rod1]

Does Mexico have a wall in its southern border?

Yes, and it was enforced under Obama, you see Mexico has been the buffer zone for decades between the wars you guys created and your border.

Obama gave millions to Mexico to enforce the south border in order to stop the flow of central americans, with huge human costs since central americans now have to go through cartel country.

 

[panamaican]

There are externalities to a wall beyond the economic cost.

You may as well say that if money is not an issue you could pay 1 million dollars to every illegal to go back home and stay there.

Sure, there are externalities beyond the economic cost but that wasn't the question asked. Seriously, why is this so hard to deal with? If the money isn't an issue, what's wrong with the wall? I saw a bunch of responses that said that "you can't ignore the cost"...sure you can, that's what hypothetical questions exist to do.

Now, if someone wants to wax philosophic on the specific issues that are independent of the cost then they should do that. Criticizing the question instead of answering it doesn't make sense to me.

If I make up the hypo "If you could breathe on the moon, would people live there?" I would hope the answer isn't "But you can't breathe on the moon therefore I will not engage in this thought exercise."

 

[IIIIIIII]

building the type of wall that trump wants will hurt relations between both countries. people seem to forget that the united states and mexico work together on many fronts. the hypocrisy of america, is that immigration is mainly the fault of america, because they hire illegal mexicans for labor. stop hiring illegals to save money, and a wall wouldn't be needed to begin with.

 

[Rod1]

Well, I didn't say that so I'm not sure where you're going.

I said breaking and entering requires one solution and shoplifting requires another. Your post was that responding to shoplifting by closing the store is a bad idea. I'm just pointing out that illegal entry isn't the same type of crime as shoplifting, it's more like breaking and entering. And when a shopkeeper encounters breaking and entering, they respond with more physical barriers.

In fact, they gradually increase the strength of those barriers until they find an effective level or they do indeed close down the store.

In my analogy shoplifting was illegal entry you guys changed the analogy.

And no its not the same as breaking and entering because you normally dont have tons of strangers entering your house during the day. While the US Mexico border procesess over a million people a day and near 2 billion worth of trade.

Of course shit is going to slip through the cracks when you have such a bulk of trade and human movement.

Thats why comparisons with militarized borders are a joke, these borders are completely closed, so its easier to block, if the US and Mexico were enemies, then yes, create a 30 mile buffer zone and mine it.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Google the 40%. Start there. I'm not your teacher.

Man am I tired of this style of argumentation.
Make a claim, post a fucking source and don't give others homework.

 

[Rod1]

Sure, there are externalities beyond the economic cost but that wasn't the question asked. Seriously, why is this so hard to deal with? If the money isn't an issue, what's wrong with the wall? I saw a bunch of responses that said that "you can't ignore the cost"...sure you can, that's what hypothetical questions exist to do.

Now, if someone wants to wax philosophic on the specific issues that are independent of the cost then they should do that. Criticizing the question instead of answering it doesn't make sense to me.

If I make up the hypo "If you could breathe on the moon, would people live there?" I would hope the answer isn't "But you can't breathe on the moon therefore I will not engage in this thought exercise."

The biggest issue would be the disruption of people who live next to the border which are mexican and american farmers and ranchers, the other issue would be the ecological cost to the enviroment as several animals cross the border everyday.

Also the fact that you will be limiting Americans access to the Bravo river.

 

[Rod1]

Every complaint about the wall, aside from the financial one, is meaningless.
"Oh no! Terrain that isn't perfectly flat! AAhhhh!"
You're either shooting down the idea because you dislike Trump, or you're the sort of person who gets nothing done because you can't see yourself overcoming obstacles... obstacles like walls... walls designed to keep out people like you.

"Environmental impact!" Pfff. Really? Do you live off the land, in a hut, subsisting on freshly-fallen fruit?

"It won't work." It'll work better than no wall.


I hope the wall is built. I hope we can see it from fucking space, because, if nothing else, it'll be awe-inspiring.
I doubt it'll be nothing else though.

In the age of electronic surveillance people think of walls simply because its symbolic.

The problem with the US-Mexico border is not a wall is lack of surveillance.

 

[lfd0311]

Man am I tired of this style of argumentation.
Make a claim, post a fucking source and don't give others homework.

Bro, do your research, bro. Come at me bro. Google some obscure stuff, then come at me, bro....

 

[electricfuneral]

the wall seems to be the most plausible part of the plan. How does he get the millions of immigrants deported?

 

[TheComebackKid]

The guy who believes Noah fit two of every animal on a wooden arc is calling people who question whether a massive wall that might be circumvented is a worthy investment naive children.

That's rich.

This was the comment I agreed with:

Because the left are idealists and not realists. They believe walls represent divisiveness and that the progressive thing to do is to tear down walls so that all cultures can live together in harmony holding hands. They are naive children, unfortunately a lot of them never grow out of it.

Their world view and ideology is what makes them naive children not questioning the worthiness, or effectiveness, of the wall.

 

[chardog]

There are externalities to a wall beyond the economic cost.

You may as well say that if money is not an issue you could pay 1 million dollars to every illegal to go back home and stay there.

you understand that building a wall is fairly inexpensive compared to housing illegal immigrants right?

you dont care that illegal immigrants are a net loss to the nation in the sum of ~100 billion yearly, but an inexpensive wall you care about?

if you're worried about the wall being too expensive, hire illegal immigrants to build it, we have no shortage. Brick and mortar is relatively cheap building material. Steal from the highway budget, make it happen. At worst, the wall instills confidence that america is at least willing to look at the illegal immigration problem. Surveilance costs would go down with a nice wall.

There's much bigger fish to fry than an inexpensive wall, liberals like you just want open borders and mexicans that will vote for your team. You simply dont care about the economic burden since you're also on welfare and want it expanded.