MMA has NOT evolved!

[WeirdFacts]

Meh....cutting weight has improved? I see more people going to the hospital now than ever before from poor weight cutting

Actually they go to the hospital for cutting TOO MUCH weight. Cutting weight has improved and now it's easier to cut too much and end up in a hospital.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I sort of agree with you but not entirely. I feel sure you would agree it has evolved since the very first UFC's. That is painfully obvious. I assume you mean maybe since the era of gloves and the additional rules that were implemented in order to get sanctioned in more states.

YEs, I am not speaking to the era when guys were picked because they had no MMA training and came in solely as a boxer trying this new street fighting thing.

I am speaking to the era of professional MMA and org's with athletes dedicated and cross training specifically to the sport.

I have thought for a while that the degree of evolution has been overstated.

yes

Vitor Belfort is a good illustration of someone who competed close to the beginning and has been relevant up until very recently...and my personal opinion is that 19 year old Belfort was better than TRTitor yet the latter was very recently striking fear in the very top of the ranks and came very close to defeating Jon Jones himself.

Perfect example of what I am referring to.

If a fighter from the start of Vitor's career or even in a decade after is ever mentioned versus a top fighter today the automatic reply of many is he would have zero chance because the sport has evolved. Many seem to think any in todays top 10 would easily beat former champs because 'evolution'.

I would bet on the Vitor of 1996 doing very well at LHW or HW or MW depending on where he set his mind and training and competing. And yes he was juiced to the gills but lets not pretend that is not a factor today.

All that being said, I do think its apparent that evolution is happening, but not on the scale some like to claim; not to the point that the old guard couldn't compete at the top with today's field. As far as I can tell, there's more of a consistency of talent now. Fifteen years ago you had outliers way ahead of everyone else and today there is much more parity. I believe the best today is marginally better than the best of yesteryear.

This is exactly how I feel. There is a consistency, much higher training levels, better nutrition, and many more people able to make a career in MMA and never work any other job. All of that bolsters mostly the middle ranks and makes it tougher to get to a championship fight. That is where the evolution really happened. But at the top ranks, those guys were always dedicated and cross training so the biggest factor is athleticism and ability to impose your skills and will. And if the top guy of yesteryear just happened to be a much better athlete and skilled overall then the benefits todays HW may get wouldn't be enough to over come that.

 

[MikeMcMann]

The sport has definitely evolved. You'd have to be of extremely rudimentary knowledge about MMA technique to not see that. You don't need to train yourself to get that necessary information, just actively try to understand what's going on during the fights you watch.

One thing that has decreased is likely PED cheating though, which will likely hit the largest guys the worst.

Ya unfortunately obviously the OP was not clear. My bad.

I tried to acknowledge the underlying sport has evolved (better training, nutrition, knowledge) and then tried to say my focus was on the athletes and particularly the top athletes because whenever a Fighter X versus Y debate arises where one is an past era top guy and another a current era there is a flurry of instant judgement that the older era guy could never compete today because the sport's athletes have evolved and therefore the top fighters are just that much better.

A perfect example someone cited would be Vitor Belfort. If we suggested a guy who started in 1996 could be competitive recently in any of MW, LHW or HW and they did not have Vitor's recent successes it would be dismissed instantly that anyone from 1996 could still compete because the athletes have evolved so much. We know Vitor (on drugs) could still compete well past his prime against guys (often also on drugs) in the latter eras.

So again I am referring to that hand waive dismissal as if the skill, athleticism and other factors of the specific fighter do not matter more amongst top guys than the advantages gained through the better training and diet, etc that benefit more today.

 

[justbetter]

You used to get a Kimura submission in almost every Pride event. Nowadays, you may see one per 20 events. Have fighters devolved, where nobody has the skill to pull them off like in Pride days? Or has fighting evolved where defending against one is basic shit.

 

[MikeMcMann]

i won't refute you. who the fuck am i, right? i don't fight, i barely train.

but Chael does below. it's only the first few minutes - once he gets to Randy should be considered GOAT you've heard his points. and like him or dislike him (i am closer to the dislike side of that spectrum), he is knowledgeable on all subjects fighting. that is undeniable.

so can you listen to that and then rebut him, point by point? thanks. i look forward to reading what you have to say.

I think Chael usually spews a lot of garbage meant to agitate for mass consumption so I really don't want to listen to the whole thing.

I started and his first point was absolute garbage ("things evolve and things have to get better. Its basically biology, you evolve or go extinct") because while true that is not the case within the life span of an individual. Chael shows a basic misunderstanding of biology here as things DO NOT evolve from generation to generation so quickly let alone in the span of one fighters career.


if you want to bullet point his major points I would be happy to address (and likely destroy) them.

 

[VIPERdude]

Well look at the SF acquisition by the UFC as many of those HW's were old Pride guys past their prime.

Prior to the merger they were often dismissed in ranking talks on this site because they were old guard and the new Breed including guys like Shaub and MeatHead were too athletic. Laugh now but that was often the instant dismissal back then. Then the acquisition happened and how many of those old Pride guys made it into the top 5, 10 or 20 at HW and how long were they relevant despite being well past their prime runs?

You make fair points, I have no argument with this. Im happy to see somebody finally on Sherdog posted a legit thread. Unfortunately decent posters are a dying breed.

Ultimately I think the fact they say its evolved is pushing the notion to casuals that it is no longer a Cage fight with no rules ....human cock fighting if you will.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I agree at least as far as to say that people overrate the evolution of MMA.
To truly get higher quality fighters we will need more young athletes aspiring to become MMA fighters, a bigger talent pool, so there is a bigger chance for great athletes with the right mental side as well.


Haha sounds wrong to say "higher quality fighters". I don't mean in a bad way, just that it would help to get more athletic freaks in to MMA, but I recognize that pure athletic talent is not enough. They need fight IQ and toughness as well. So more "A level athletes" = bigger chance some have the right attributes or can develop them to a high level.

agree with this 100%.

I think in the top days of Pride and the early days of Zuffa UFC there was a rush of very high athletic guys who had not made it into any other pro sport who thought they could maybe jump into this new and exciting sport of MMA and make a big splash and maybe make some huge money. So we had a big influx of very good skilled guys and arguable the golden age of MMA.

As time has past the money in MMA has improved but so to has the knowledge that only an elite rare few will really make any real money compared to the risk they take and that influx is more measured now and we certainly have not seen it grow proportionally in my view. The talent pool for MMA is still pretty thin thus why tire changers can still rise to the top of HW with decent basic skill and heavy hands if they cross train.

What MMA needs is for a percentage of the thousands of young kids dreaming of being a Golden Gloves champ in boxing to instead start focusing on MMA at those ages and also training for other pro sports. they need athletes with CHOICES to stream to MMA and not just the guys who have no other choice.

 

[Thug Rose]

i dont think mma will ever evolve past the crosstraining athlete who starts his mma career in his late 20s. it will always be a fallback sport. mma is more like a wwe alternative than a real competitive sport. i dont think there is any incentive to develop a real training system. after all the "sport" will never be more than 2 guys with tattoos getting in a cage and beating each other up for violence-loving audience.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Well some fighters are just ahead of their time

Gsp was very good at 3 aspects of fighting when most of his opponents were good at 1 or 2

How many top 10 guys gsp beAt would still be top 10 today?

Would gsp still have an impressive run in today’s ufc?

I don't think pre USADA Hendricks was a much different fighter than Prime Kos, Both great wrestlers with KO power if they could connect. I don't Lawler represented anything at WW that GSP had not seen or handled before. I think Condit in his prime would compete fine as would Nick DIaz and many more.

Ya I think Prime GSP would have a very similar run today.

 

[Tuf_guy]

Now it's like "Hey hun, want to see this girl jam a baseball bat in her ass while her best friend, that's tied to a chair, squirts all over her face because another girl is using electromagnetic sex toys on her crotch? Oh yea, that last girl is getting fucked in the ass by a guy that's hung like a horse. All this is happening in a cafe in Prague. Sound okay?"

 

[Joseph_McBride]

10 years ago UFC fighters didn't even do simple things like double up on a jab. Nobody gets caught in triangles or armbars anymore, accept women like McMann because wmma is further behind in its development. For God's sake ppl like Houston Alexander & Jason Lambert would've been top 10-15 ranked in tha UFC at one point if UFC had rankings back then. Guys like Villante & Cummins beat them easily. Tim Sylvia & Arlovski ruled HW lol

 

[sonofjay817]

YEs, I am not speaking to the era when guys were picked because they had no MMA training and came in solely as a boxer trying this new street fighting thing.

I am speaking to the era of professional MMA and org's with athletes dedicated and cross training specifically to the sport.

yes

Perfect example of what I am referring to.

If a fighter from the start of Vitor's career or even in a decade after is ever mentioned versus a top fighter today the automatic reply of many is he would have zero chance because the sport has evolved. Many seem to think any in todays top 10 would easily beat former champs because 'evolution'.

I would bet on the Vitor of 1996 doing very well at LHW or HW or MW depending on where he set his mind and training and competing. And yes he was juiced to the gills but lets not pretend that is not a factor today.



This is exactly how I feel. There is a consistency, much higher training levels, better nutrition, and many more people able to make a career in MMA and never work any other job. All of that bolsters mostly the middle ranks and makes it tougher to get to a championship fight. That is where the evolution really happened. But at the top ranks, those guys were always dedicated and cross training so the biggest factor is athleticism and ability to impose your skills and will. And if the top guy of yesteryear just happened to be a much better athlete and skilled overall then the benefits todays HW may get wouldn't be enough to over come that.

Yeah, the more I read of some of your follow up posts, I realized you and I feel pretty much the same about the situation. By the way, I think prime Frank Shamrock could very well be a dominant champion in today's 170 or 185lbs division. He was great in any era if you ask me but I grant he may have been juiced to the gills as well.

 

[ritchest_eva]

I think the fighters have a much better well rounded game instead of being solid in just 1 aspect you have to be well rounded fighter to be at the top

 

[savemgs]

Prime JDS
Ubereem
Current Miocic

So basically all the elite HW strikers of post 2010

A guy who made his MMA debut in the same year CC i believe.
Who suffers from Andre on oski syndrome.

And in the case of JDS had a difficult time defeating a past his prime CC. Not that there's any shame in that.

So that only gives you the champ. And honestly I'm not sure about that.

So most of the heavyweights right would probably get owned why a guy whos Peak was in 2005.

 

[Tuf_guy]

Ya i mentioned training but training, fighter pay, attendance were not what I was referring to.

I was specifically trying to isolate Fighter V Fighter matchups that get instantly dismissed due to some suggestion that todays fighters are too evolved therefore they beat easily any top prior era's fighters. That is what I do not agree with.

I think this argument lends itself to overstatements being made. There are absolutely differences. The thing that makes it almost bizarre to tout the leaps and bounds of evolution is the fact that none of the shit MMA fighters do is new. All of the techniques were there for the learning since the beginning. Boxing is much bigger. Crazy to remember Diego Sanchez arguing that it wasn't true that boxing technique could be used in MMA - and for him to have probably been proven right... yet that idea and his interest in implementing boxing were the beginning of his undoing as a serious contender and healthy man with a brajn functioning at its own relative capacity.

I often want to argue against the "New Breed" thing, because a lot of new fans make dumb arguments about it (although maybe less often lately).

The new breed talk didn't start at heavyweight, though. When I first saw Rich Franklin, he was being called a part of the new breed of fighters in '05.
Then around '05/'06 there was then talk of a new breed of heavies - but that sas in relation to huge heavyweights... maybe even around the time Randy lost at Heavyweight.

But back to ridiculous statements. People say shit like any fighter now would own any lf the previous generations. One guy even said that BJ Penn could never beat the guy who just whooped his ass last - saying it didn't matter that BJ is old, the sport has evolved, and the same guy would beat him at any point of BJ's career. The same guy who was then beasted by Frankie in his next fight. That's ridiculous.

 

[Maori]

In any thread where someone brings up a top fighter from years back and how they would match up in a Prime V Prime against a top fighter today we invariably get a very reflexive reply that the fighter from years back would lose because the sports Evolved as if that and that alone would determine the outcome.

I am here to argue that the sport has not had any significant evolution and far more important is how good an athlete and how good a fighter that person was.

What has evolved is training as all fighters now are far better cross trained and there are less easy fights against one dimensional and part time fighters. That evolution I will concede but that was never an issue for the top guys V top guys. That is more an issue for the guys in the ranks.

This New Breed, sports evolved nonsense was first being spouted and adopted when the major HW's were split. The UFC had a crop of mostly new and younger HW's and Strikeforce had a stable of mostly older HW's whose prime years were either behind them or fading fast. The UFC wanted to glorify their New Breed by saying the Sports Evolved and all those older guys may have great resumes and name recognition but they could never compete with our new young guns. Many fans bought into that marketing spin and still parrot it today.

We now know after those HW divisions were merged that, that was BS and not only could that old guard compete but they quickly took over a major portion of the top ranks, even HW's who were considered well past their prime runs were still able to maintain at or near the top.

And I get it as invariably fans will rank 'what they watch and see today' and they find themselves vested in as they cheer for one guy over the other, over stories they have heard about older fighters or in watching them in re-runs. Its not the same when it comes to how vested you are in a fighter. But that does not make what you see today necessarily better than what happened yesterday. You need to step back from that bias as there is no new breed and the sport has not evolved yet. Training has.

Edit addition:

Spoiler

i guess i should be more clear as i already stated that the training has evolved. The money has also evolved which is drawing in more athletes who can train and work full time in MMA where that was not possible prior. And I stated that has strengthened the tiers below the elite fighters pretty significantly.

But WHAT I AM REFERRING TO is that the level of athletes at the top, who have mostly always had good access to cross training have not evolved in such a way that you can say it would be no contest between a top star or yesteryear and a top star today.


(and no I am not going back to the earliest days of the UFC when most of the athletes were hand picked to fight for a reason)

The thing with heavyweights is power never dies, this is why the older stable is able to compete

 

[SomniumRabidum]

All the elite strikers in 2000-2010 are sloppy brawlers at best for current day

That's just wildly false.

 

[FKA]

It's Almost laughable how much people dismiss the pioneers and legends of the sport that were considered top talent in their day.

If you didn't live through the experience if watching these guys in real time you just don't get it.


PRIDE guys are STILL in UFC rankings.......nuff said lol.

From 185 down the talent hasn't necessarily evolved it's become more solid as you don't have many gimme fights but it isn't light years ahead or anything.

From 205 - up.......it hasn't evolved whatsoever.....

 

[HI SCOTT NEWMAN]

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Lets be honest Tank Abbott in his prime would put a lot of the current UFC HW's in a coma, guys like Cyril Asker, Christian Colombo, Walt Harris, Mark Godbeer to name only a few would get murdered by Tank. He would kill them. They are so bad and garbage and all part time fighters themselves, Asker being a full time police officer and Harris being a full time security guard, they are not good fighters.

Tank was bench pressing 680 Ibs max when he was 30 years old, these guys today could they even bench 6 Ibs? they are awful. I'm not impressed.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Yeah, the more I read of some of your follow up posts, I realized you and I feel pretty much the same about the situation. By the way, I think prime Frank Shamrock could very well be a dominant champion in today's 170 or 185lbs division. He was great in any era if you ask me but I grant he may have been juiced to the gills as well.

Ha I feel the same about Frank. I think Anderson in his prime would have beat him but Frank certainly would have had a chance to win that fight. But as the MW division upsized i think Frank would have had to fight at WW in the UFC.