MMA has NOT evolved!

[MikeMcMann]

Not really

Hendricks had wrestling n mixed it up well with his striking

Kos was good wrestlers with power n didn’t mix up his wrestling n striking well. When he needed a td he would just go for it n overpower his opponent with speed n athleticism.

Alves was short n stocky n could stuff telegraphed td from guys like Hughes n kos. Gsp ability to mix it up gave him problems

Someone like Hendricks had the opportunity to study gsp fights n make a game plan to counter his style

It’s not really gsp no longer in his “prime”, his style got figured out n Hendricks had tools to beat him.






Gsp had many td vs both guys

The thing with both those guys is they’re very active off their back.

Both are also high volume guys with good cardio which makes td harder in later rounds

ok. you are obviously a GSP hater so I am not going to bother much. To think such major surgeries at that point in your career have no impact and to ignore that stylistically many thought Diaz and Condit should be some of GSp's easier fights as was being said prior due to their poor tdd says enough about you. GSP has had few fights were the guys were not either active off their back or super hard to keep on their back. Penn, Kos, Alves, Hughes, Miller, Trigg, Fitch, Shields were all guys most would struggle to get and keep on their backs. Diaz and COndit would be the easiest of that list. But yes, yes to any hater of any Champ who has moved on we always here the same thing on sherdog of 'no the division has jsut moved past them'. Es normal.

and Alves is not short. He is basically the same height as GSP and by stocky you should say jacked as stocky often involves a little pudgy which Alves was not. He was considered one of the biggest guys in the division for quite a while.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Look...

Sport as a whole evolves (especially mma being still relatively young)

No one is denying that, especially me.

New guys coming in are: (in general)

More well rounded

Have better conditioning

Are bigger

in general (over time) yes. But it is way over estimated on this site to the extent that they think prior guys, even elite prior guys would not even be able to make the under card today due to this rapid evolution. That is what I am discussing and saying is wrong. Not that it happens over time.

Look at someone like max Holloway

He had 2 fights with aldo n both were almost exactly the same

Aldo simply doesn’t have size or cardio to keep up with max n got finished both times in 3rd round

Now of course you can claim also is “past his prime” n the fight would look different if in his prime, but look at the guys aldo beat in his career. How many would be able to compete with today’s max?

Of course Aldo fight age is starting to factor in.

Every champ is eventually going to lose to a contender unless they retire champ which is rare. To start defining those losses as evolution automatically is asinine. Maybe the new guy was just better.

Is every time fighter A loses to fighter B an example of evolution or just when a champ does. Can guy not just lose to someone who at teh time is better?

How about Robert Whittaker?

His tdd n ability to get back up is not an example of evolution of the game?

Do you think TDD and getting back up is new? Is his more evolved than Prime Chuck Liddell's was or Prime Rampages was?

That said as I stated up thread we are talking past one another as I AM NOT SAYING skills and the sport are not evolving as I have stated over and over and you are either ignoring or trolling me.

In case you are trolling I will just resort to cutting and pasting this going forward and will no longer address those fake points you pretend I am disputing.

...I have stated over and over that the type of evolution I addressed in the OP of this thread is what people refer to is this evolved NEw Breed of fighter who they say are fundamentally better, since they have evolved, than the old guard fighters in such a way that you cannot even compare the two anymore.

if that is true than old guard fighters like Lawler would not be able to get better as well by using the same techniques and still compete. It would prove their is no evolution in the fighters themselves and only in the techniques and whether it is an old guard guy like Lawler or a newer guy they can both get the same benefits as they are still basically the same.

 

[george14]

I guess if you look at it like that, but that's just a bunch of shit you made up.

It's no different than me saying the evolution of MMA has nothing to do with the natural ability of Fighters, and that it's all about the improved training methods and techniques.


I like my version better because obviously human beings don't evolve in a decade. Only a complete idiot would think that. The only explanation for why Fighters are better today than they were yesterday is because of improved outside factors like training and technique improvements.

At the end of tbe day, this is just a bunch of dudes talking on the Forum like they're somehow more enlightened than one another in regards to some subjective topic.

Subjective topic yet you are over here calling people "fucking retards".

In the above post you said "I like my version better" yet you acknowledge its subjective.

 

[george14]

Look...

Look at someone like max Holloway

He had 2 fights with aldo n both were almost exactly the same

Aldo simply doesn’t have size or cardio to keep up with max n got finished both times in 3rd round

Now of course you can claim also is “past his prime” n the fight would look different if in his prime, but look at the guys aldo beat in his career

How many would be able to compete with today’s max?

Frankie Edgar? Ricardo Lamas? Cub Swanson?

These are top 5 guys still.

 

[dualityzme]

American rules always favoured the wrestler too much.

That's what killed it.

It's the ring vs. cage

I suspect that the elite fighters in the UFC would look much different had they adopted a ring instead of a fence, presumably to make it seem edgy?

 

[Bumblebeef]

i won't refute you. who the fuck am i, right? i don't fight, i barely train.

but Chael does below. it's only the first few minutes - once he gets to Randy should be considered GOAT you've heard his points. and like him or dislike him (i am closer to the dislike side of that spectrum), he is knowledgeable on all subjects fighting. that is undeniable.

so can you listen to that and then rebut him, point by point? thanks. i look forward to reading what you have to say.

sorry but chael talks shit here.
i dont watch sports lie basketball or boxing because there is a new greatest of all time.
stupid from him.

 

[imbossing]

I feel you might be right. When I watch ufc I feel like I'm not watching elites fights. It seems like there are too many prospects,(Erik Silva,) that never evolve. The competition has gone down. Today's fighters are not natural born fighters from back in the day.

 

[grimballer]

ok. you are obviously a GSP hater so I am not going to bother much. To think such major surgeries at that point in your career have no impact and to ignore that stylistically many thought Diaz and Condit should be some of GSp's easier fights as was being said prior due to their poor tdd says enough about you. GSP has had few fights were the guys were not either active off their back or super hard to keep on their back. Penn, Kos, Alves, Hughes, Miller, Trigg, Fitch, Shields were all guys most would struggle to get and keep on their backs. Diaz and COndit would be the easiest of that list. But yes, yes to any hater of any Champ who has moved on we always here the same thing on sherdog of 'no the division has jsut moved past them'. Es normal.

What are you talking about?

Against condit gsp had 7 td n Diaz 9

Both fights were unanimous 50-45 decision (except one judge giving round 3 to condit after that head kick kd)

The difference with these guys is they didn’t get tired like other gsp opponent which make td harder in later round.

Was gsp post surgery? Probably not, but don’t act like it was night n day. He was still dominating same aspects of the game.

and Alves is not short. He is basically the same height as GSP and by stocky you should say jacked as stocky often involves a little pudgy which Alves was not. He was considered one of the biggest guys in the division for quite a while.

Gsp is not standing straight there.

Also alves has 68” reach n is supposedly 5’9 (69”)

Compare that to gsp reach of 76” n it’s easy to see why he tried to move down a weight class

 

[grimballer]

in general (over time) yes. But it is way over estimated on this site to the extent that they think prior guys, even elite prior guys would not even be able to make the under card today due to this rapid evolution. That is what I am discussing and saying is wrong. Not that it happens over time.

I’m pretty sure most ppl talk about skill set n not the hypothetical:

“if fighter x from 10 years ago had today’s training”

Like

“would chuck Liddell with his 05 skill set still be top guy today?”

A lot of ppl feel chuck would have too many holes to be top fighter today.

Now would chuck be able to adjust or would green chuck be elite fighter?

It’s hard to tell, but I’m sure most would say yes

Of course Aldo fight age is starting to factor in.

Every champ is eventually going to lose to a contender unless they retire champ which is rare. To start defining those losses as evolution automatically is asinine. Maybe the new guy was just better.

But max is a type of fighter aldo didn’t have to deal with during his run

He’s much bigger with better cardio n good chin.

N if the new guy is just better, isn’t that the evolution of the sport?

Is every time fighter A loses to fighter B an example of evolution or just when a champ does. Can guy not just lose to someone who at teh time is better?

Depends on the fight

If it’s a fluke ko, then maybe not

If it’s a total domination where the champ is clearly overmatched then you can argue it’s evolution

Do you think TDD and getting back up is new? Is his more evolved than Prime Chuck Liddell's was or Prime Rampages was?

His is definitely next level


That said as I stated up thread we are talking past one another as I AM NOT SAYING skills and the sport are not evolving as I have stated over and over and you are either ignoring or trolling me.

In case you are trolling I will just resort to cutting and pasting this going forward and will no longer address those fake points you pretend I am disputing.[/QUOTE]

I already addressed your point with most objective answer

Athletes are:

Bigger, stronger, better conditioned n have more well rounded game then before

Everything else

Like: “would fighter x from 2005 beat fighter y from 2017”

Is only speculation

 

[MikeMcMann]

What are you talking about?

Against condit gsp had 7 td n Diaz 9

Both fights were unanimous 50-45 decision (except one judge giving round 3 to condit after that head kick kd)

The difference with these guys is they didn’t get tired like other gsp opponent which make td harder in later round.

Was gsp post surgery? Probably not, but don’t act like it was night n day. He was still dominating same aspects of the game.



Gsp is not standing straight there.

Also alves has 68” reach n is supposedly 5’9 (69”)

Compare that to gsp reach of 76” n it’s easy to see why he tried to move down a weight class

GSP was still struggling to get td's especially compared to pre surgery. Even Diaz was stuffing him. I am not saying GSP did not win convincingly, as he did, I am saying he went from the least hit to the most hit because his transition game is greatly diminished. That makes TD's more predictable. Sorry but Condit and Diaz do not represent some great evolutionary leap forward in the division. They are also old guard guys. And guys like Alves, Fitch, Shields, Kos were not tiring either against GSP.

Also Alves and GSP are pretty much the exact same height. They list GSP as 5'10 but he is not quite. he is 5'9.5 max. I've met him many times. Alves is 5'9. If you think the picture is skewed go watch many of the videos on weigh in day as no one watching them comes away thinking Alves is smaller. Going into the fight everyone, and i mean EVERYONE, was talking about Alves being bigger. SO again your hate requires you to try and rewrite history. Reach is not the only stat that matters in size.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I’m pretty sure most ppl talk about skill set n not the hypothetical:

“if fighter x from 10 years ago had today’s training”

Like

“would chuck Liddell with his 05 skill set still be top guy today?”

A lot of ppl feel chuck would have too many holes to be top fighter today.
...

What are the holes you see in Prime Chucks game that todays fighters do not have?

He was a solid kickboxer, with one punch KO power and decent hand striking, and had a solid wrestling base which made him tough to take down and even tougher to keep down and he had solid bjj defense.

Please explain?

 

[MikeMcMann]

N if the new guy is just better, isn’t that the evolution of the sport?

NO.

And that is my problem. You guys do not know what evolution means and you think it means winning.

Every time a guy beats another guy or a football team beats another football team and then loses to them the next time does not mean they lost because the sport and team evolved.

In the NFL for instance you could say the sport had several evolution stages. First when the sport became big enough and the money big enough that athletic kids were streaming towards football as a career when they had choices to go elsewhere. The replacement of the part time football players who had day jobs out of season and played football in season by guys who had been streaming to that career all their lives was a big jump forward as now the cream had to seperate from a larger crop.

Another big evolution was when high schooler all got steroid access and were entering University ranks already as giant, powerful men.

if you are going to say every Sunday game the winner was more evolved and that is why they beat the loser then I don't know what to say about you. If they lose to the same team or person in the weeks following did they de-evolve? Is it not just possible they are similarly evolved (meaning same access to everything) but one guy or team is just better.

 

[bhp02]

Prime Royce Gracie would get destroyed in todays MMA.

All the sports are evolving..
Including MMA..
Dumb ass to think nothing has changed

 

[Ladder Master]

It is evolved at the elite level, specifically with striking

All the elite strikers in 2000-2010 are sloppy brawlers at best for current day

I Just wanted an excuse to post this. Nice Striking sequence.

 

[Bubblun]

I Just wanted an excuse to post this. Nice Striking sequence.

This fight is one of the many examples of evolution of mma.
Most people here can't even name these two young fighters, but they already have better striking than every fighter in their weight class before 2010.


To be honest, excluding the few fighters from a striking background, the striking in mma was piss poor till very recently.

 

[MikeMcMann]

This fight is one of the many examples of evolution of mma.
Most people here can't even name these two young fighters, but they already have better striking than every fighter in their weight class before 2010.


To be honest, excluding the few fighters from a striking background, the striking in mma was piss poor till very recently.

You are a hyperbole machine. No they do not have better than every single fighter in their weight class pre 2010.

Also if I can find examples of terrible striking today does that mean today things have actually devolved as you seem to think examples of specific fighters equals evolution and IT DOES NOT. Cherry picking examples =/= evolution in either direction.

 

[sb413197]

It's gone backwards.

In the mid to late 2000s, the sport was on a straight upward trajectory. It looked like it was going to become a mainstream sport so we had a lot of talent coming into the game.

Fast forward to today and it just isn't the same. There are a few talented fighters, most of which are already champions - but we don't seem to have many superstars coming up through the ranks these days. I don't see many new Jon Jones/BJ Penn/GSP/Anderson Silva/Fedor level dudes coming up.

The sport isn't "dying". But it has returned to late 90s/early 2000s type state in terms of talent.

 

[Bubblun]

You are a hyperbole machine. No they do not have better than every single fighter in their weight class pre 2010.

Also if I can find examples of terrible striking today does that mean today things have actually devolved as you seem to think examples of specific fighters equals evolution and IT DOES NOT. Cherry picking examples =/= evolution in either direction.

Listen dude, arguing about if mma "evolved" or not is a waste of time, you have to be blind to not see that, so i am not going to respond to every single one of your posts forever.

This sport is 25 years old, there have never been so many practitioners, so many gyms, so many coaches and so much money in the sport as today, and it's only going to become bigger worldwide.

Fighters never been so good and "old" fighters that are still on top are getting better, that's the reason why they are still ahead of the game.

Before the name of GSP was used as an agument against "mma evolution", because the guy started fighting 15 years ago.

Listening to every single damn interview GSP did before UFC 217 he said that the reason why he returned is that he has never been so good as a fighter and he could not accept to retire not having fought in his prime.
For instance:

35 seconds in this video and again at 2 minutes and 35 seconds


2 minute in this video



GSP not only says that he is in his prime, he also says that "the sport has evolved a lot since I left", and he left in 2013 NOT ages ago, and "if I would have returned the same GSP of old, that GSP would have got his butt kicked".

And then GSP goes in there at UFC 217, before he had trouble hurting welterweights, now every punch he threw had knockout power, against a middleweight.
He dropped Bisping with a left hook, a punch he never used effectively before.
That's called "evolving" in my view, or "getting better" as a fighter, if you like.


Funny that some weirdos that are "experts" in fantasy "prime xxx vs prime xxx" matchups use "pre-Serra GSP" as "prime GSP", pretty much going against evidence and even GSP words and his coaches words.

This is faith vs evidence, so if you want to believe in a fantasy world where mma has not changed over the years, go ahead.

 

[superpunch]

- No submissions from guard anymore
- Strikers rarely get taken down
- Mount is not a death sentence anymore
- Losing your back is not a death sentence anymore
- Everyone knows how to jab
- Everyone knows basic boxing footwork
- Guys on bottom push themselves up against the cage instead of trying to avoid it

The sport has evolved tremendously a lot

 

[superpunch]

I Just wanted an excuse to post this. Nice Striking sequence.

This fight is one of the many examples of evolution of mma.
Most people here can't even name these two young fighters, but they already have better striking than every fighter in their weight class before 2010.


To be honest, excluding the few fighters from a striking background, the striking in mma was piss poor till very recently.

Also both guys had huge reaches, like ~77" at 145 lbs. Guys are getting bigger. That's also a huge evolution.