MMA has NOT evolved!

[Wicked_1]

A lot of the evolvinge just like in all sports, is from a wider pool of athletes . Also from far better training. All because of popularity of the sport. When there is more money to be made, more people try it. When more people try it, obviously u get more talent across the board. More competition. The basic techniques are still the same, with only minor updated moves. Bjj is still bjj, boxing and wrestling.. Still boxing and wrestling. Gsp getting on the scene.. Beat by hughes... Then later koed by serra... Takes him right out of goat conversation. He also was like bones.. A huge fighter for the class. BJ... Small, serra, sherk.. Etc were all way smaller than him. Not by weight on weigh in.. But size. He had decisions against similar sized guys. He cleaned out a weak division. The same division Matt Hughes cleaned out before him. And lots were the sames guys.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Also, if we're talking about "MMA" as a whole there's:

USADA, mainstreamization of the sport, production, fighter pay, more MMA promoters than ever, more MMA fighters than ever, more MMA fans than ever, international expansion of MMA, new rules, etc.


All this is part of the evolution of MMA.

Ok I was not clear enough obviously.

I was speaking with regards to top fighters of yesteryear V a top fighter today debate where often before you can even get into attributes so many write it off as ridiculous to compare them because 'MMA has evolved and therefore fighters of yesteryear would have no chance today'.

I was not referring to how the orgs in MMA have changed.

 

[Squarechoke]

The sport has definitely evolved. You'd have to be of extremely rudimentary knowledge about MMA technique to not see that. You don't need to train yourself to get that necessary information, just actively try to understand what's going on during the fights you watch.

One thing that has decreased is likely PED cheating though, which will likely hit the largest guys the worst.

 

[demetrio]

If MMA has not evolved, then all great fighters from the past have contributed ZERO to the sport. MMA is just as good as if those fighters had never created anything new or interesting for others to learn and improve upon.

What an odd way to appreciate their work and legacy.

 

[grimballer]

Of course it has

S/c much better now

Athletes are bigger m more athletic

Fighters are more complete (you really think someone with Matt Hughes skill level would be contender today?

 

[12ga.]

Watch Tony Ferguson. Lifts chin high to dodge punches. Misses and goes forwards like a rolodex instead of back. Rolls and ppl think he hurt rather than rolling to extreme. Pulls wrestlers on top of him. This guy will be studied like geniuses after gone but you can see it now.

 

[christer]

I agree at least as far as to say that people overrate the evolution of MMA.
To truly get higher quality fighters we will need more young athletes aspiring to become MMA fighters, a bigger talent pool, so there is a bigger chance for great athletes with the right mental side as well.


Haha sounds wrong to say "higher quality fighters". I don't mean in a bad way, just that it would help to get more athletic freaks in to MMA, but I recognize that pure athletic talent is not enough. They need fight IQ and toughness as well. So more "A level athletes" = bigger chance some have the right attributes or can develop them to a high level.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think a lot of fans misunderstand evolution in mixed martial arts, just like most layman misunderstanding evolution in nature. In nature, evolution isn't survival of the best, it's survival of the fittest, and fitness is environment-dependent. The state of an ecosystem under evolution is not continuous improvement, it's continuous response to what existed before it (as well as other major changes, such as climate, although that can also be driven by the biological organisms living in it).

Likewise, often evolution within a mixed martial arts context isn't movement toward things that work better, it's movement toward things that work against whatever came before it. The top guys of a given period probably do well against the ones from 3-4 years prior, but 10-12? Who knows?

That's not to say there isn't any genuine improvement, especially when comparing to 1993 and the like when there was a lot of genuine, untested bullshit floating around. But would today's top guys thrash the top guys of 2002-2008? It's entirely plausible they'd actually get thrashed, due to USADA if for no other reason.

I would not bet my house on a Grand Prix style tournament today where you took the top HW's of the UFC and put them against the top HW's of Pride during Fedors run or the top HW's of Strikeforce at their peek.

And USADA is gutting this era now.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I understand what you are saying and you've said it very well.

My first question would be what do we mean by the "sport has evolved??" This needs to be defined first before we can discuss further.

Defining the sport has evolved may be subjective therefore the spectrum of opinion may be vast.

An example wud be some people may consider training improvement to be part of "sport has evolved"

Ya i mentioned training but training, fighter pay, attendance were not what I was referring to.

I was specifically trying to isolate Fighter V Fighter matchups that get instantly dismissed due to some suggestion that todays fighters are too evolved therefore they beat easily any top prior era's fighters. That is what I do not agree with.

 

[Gangstub]

Yep, because Royce coming back in 06 was able to choke everybody out.

 

[Final Say]

It's impossible for the sport to not have evolved

The high water mark for skill, mastery of technique and talent is higher. Also, the pool of people trying their hand is bigger. It's common sense.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Except for gsp litterally says himself that the game is constantly evolving and he's still learning every day as a Martial artist.

And athletes being more cross trained by definition is a evolution of the sport, the competition has become more complete therefore the competition has evolved therefore the sport has evolved.
Pretty simple

Yes again for the hundredth time i mentioned things like training evolving in the OP.

that was not my focus. My focus is on the athletes and the idea that fighters have evolved such that maybe in a few years someone will say Prime GSP would stand no chance against the top 10 of WW today because they have all evolved.

Sure techniques, training and diet will still continue to evolve going forward and guys like GSP will try to train to gain every inch of benefit but that does not automatically mean that because the top 10 at some future point are using better techniques they would all beat GSP at his prime from yesteryear as the level of athlete and skill he had is not just over come because a new guy has better training, etc.

The top guys today have better nutrition, training, etc but that does not mean all the top HW's from Pride or SF at their best could not compete as they were phenomenal specimens themselves.

 

[3sumrock]

Elite Pride hw back then pretty much would get destroy by today elite hw like Overeem,cain and stipe

 

[TriangleMonkey]

I think the evolution only has been in the amount of gyms and availibilty to compete in the sport.

Back in the 90’s it was taboo, homemade gym, borrowing the back section of some mats somewhere to get training in. And finding fights was a motherfucker, let alone get paid well.

Now MMA training is commercialized like crazy, almost to Mc-dojo level in some cases......

But TS, you are very right. The top fighters would be fine. The techniques have been the same for eons, and so have genetic freaks.

 

[MikeMcMann]

USADA set UFC specifically back about 7 years

I agree with lot of what you said I just cant think of many fighters from the old guard that did come back that were victorious over a newer younger name. ie Jens Pulver, BJ penn, Shamrock, Ortiz etc. They all were still able to compete and didn't do well. Most stars of yesteryear were one dimensional up until about 2005 fighters started to become well versed in everything. A one dimensional fighter just wont have much success today. Even Cro Cop came in UFC still very healthy and had last won the grand prix before PRIDE was bought by UFC. He was beaten by younger more well rounded talent like we never seen Cro Cop beaten before.

When you say what we see today doesnt necessarily mean its better than what happened yesterday.. That may be true but you really cant scale that because it just doesnt happen ENOUGH in order to really know.

Well look at the SF acquisition by the UFC as many of those HW's were old Pride guys past their prime.

Prior to the merger they were often dismissed in ranking talks on this site because they were old guard and the new Breed including guys like Shaub and MeatHead were too athletic. Laugh now but that was often the instant dismissal back then. Then the acquisition happened and how many of those old Pride guys made it into the top 5, 10 or 20 at HW and how long were they relevant despite being well past their prime runs?

 

[beastman]

At the end of the day, it will always just be a fight. All the techniques are out there. The top guys will always be the ones that have the mental edge.

 

[noc]

Is evolving, the sport is in diapers.. started just in 2001 i think
We need soccer kicks, stomps and 3 rounds of 10 minutes each

 

[grimballer]

Yes again for the hundredth time i mentioned things like training evolving in the OP.

that was not my focus. My focus is on the athletes and the idea that fighters have evolved such that maybe in a few years someone will say Prime GSP would stand no chance against the top 10 of WW today because they have all evolved.

Sure techniques, training and diet will still continue to evolve going forward and guys like GSP will try to train to gain every inch of benefit but that does not automatically mean that because the top 10 at some future point are using better techniques they would all beat GSP at his prime from yesteryear as the level of athlete and skill he had is not just over come because a new guy has better training, etc.

The top guys today have better nutrition, training, etc but that does not mean all the top HW's from Pride or SF at their best could not compete as they were phenomenal specimens themselves.

Well some fighters are just ahead of their time

Gsp was very good at 3 aspects of fighting when most of his opponents were good at 1 or 2

How many top 10 guys gsp beAt would still be top 10 today?

Would gsp still have an impressive run in today’s ufc?

 

[ColombianFist]

in terms of evolution, not much since you have strikers, wrestler and grapplers. but the evolution was that you see more well rounded fighters with similar skills overall but focusing on one aspect. and better cross training; otherwise people like khabib are still smeshing with wrestling or maia submitting everyone once he takes them to the ground.

 

[mangokush]

MMA in the UFC has actually devolved.

For it to evolve it must have PRIDE rules which should have been enacted years ago

Currently MMA is too watered down to be taken seriously.

Seems to be only about humping the opponent against the cage these days and running.