Kyukushin/Judo

Kforcer said:
Ah, I think it is a big stretch to say that MT/BJJ is the best blend around.

Why...?

One word. Wrestling.

I assumed that more or less as a given. You need wrestling no matter what you study. But as offensive arts on the ground and standing up, Muay Thai and BJJ have a very successful track record of being just that little bit better than Judo and KK Karate, Kickboxing etc....., simply because you have more options and familiarity with a wider range of effective weapons.
 
Darwinist said:
I assumed that more or less as a given. You need wrestling no matter what you study. But as offensive arts on the ground and standing up, Muay Thai and BJJ have a very successful track record of being just that little bit better than Judo and KK Karate, Kickboxing etc....., simply because you have more options and familiarity with a wider range of effective weapons.

I hear you.

Submission-wrestling/catch/shoot-wrestling has a pretty good track-record as well, I would say, especially in the hands of truly adept amateur wrestlers. There's something to recommend using takedowns to initiate grappling from advantageous positions...though, of course...catch-wrestling is a bit more of an athletic style that might not work as well for people lacking in either speed, strength or both.

What has to be admitted though, is that catch-wrestling does indeed work better from top-position...and the failing of some fighters, such as Kiyoshi Tamura, has been a lack of the amateur wrestling ability necessary to really complete his style. Tamura is an all-time great anyway, but better amateur wrestling skills would have really made him even better.
 
The style it's called Budokai. The grand master is Jon Bluming. The most well-known fighter is Semmy Schilt (this year's K-1 champ). There are 10 dan in Budokai, cause it's different than Kyokushin.
In competition they are allowed to punch, kick, knee the face (they wear big helmets and MMA-style gloves). They are allowing only 2 x 30 sec. action on the ground in a fight. On the ground you can do chokes, leg locks etc. and can only hit the body with the hand. It's a good mixture, but they are not focusing on the ground work.
I trained a romanian K-1 style champion in BJJ (for the gound work) in order to get his 2 Dan BB in Budokai. The exam looked like this: 20 x 1,5 min. fights on the ground, kumite: multiple attackers - throw them with judo tech., kumite: mult. att. - kyokushin style fighting, kumite - 40 x 1,5 min., kata, throwings, physical exercises etc. It was tough!
 
feels:
How is fighting bare-knuckle strange? Even though we don't allow hand strikes to the head, there are plenty of strategies for downing an opponent. Rounds are usually too short to "wear down" an opponent and are fought at a much faster pace than any other combat sport. The objective for the fighter is produce one solid strike that's capable of putting the opponent down whether it's a uppercut to the liver or a kick/knee to the head. Sure, we exchange a lot of shots that don't connect as intended, but it's not a race to see who gets knocked out first like how Gary Goodridge fights.

It is also rare for world-class Kyokushin fighters to break their hands. Wrist and hand strengthening is basic procedure during training. And many Kyokushin dojos always stress the importance of keeping the hands and wrists strong in order to prevent injury. A broken hand or wrist may happen occassionally, but what combat sport doesn't produce injured fighters?

I'll admit, kumite is fought a strange distance compared to other combat sports; thus, many fighters have a difficult time adjusting in order to fight up close. Stand-up fighting, in general, isn't the most realistic in terms of combat either, whether it's Muay Thai or Kickboxing. All those sports have rules, too. It's only a matter of how well a fighter handles himself within the limitations of those rules. People can say that most Kyokushin fighters lack head punching defense, which is true. But I can tell you that a Muay Thai fighter or Kickboxer would be a fish out of water fighting under Kyokushin or WTF rules.
Well it's mostly the no head punching rule that I think is a little strange, since it kinda develops a low guard and stuff.

But if you mix it with boxing to learn to punch high, it obviously works for guys like Andy Hug and Glaube Feitosa etc., so it's all good.
 
feels,

People can say that most Kyokushin fighters lack head punching defense, which is true. But I can tell you that a Muay Thai fighter or Kickboxer would be a fish out of water fighting under Kyokushin or WTF rules.

while there might be some truth to your statment... you forget that punching to the face is an "universial attack"; meaning if you see two kids fight: they are going to punch each other in the face, if you see fighters go at it in the UFC: they punch each other in the face, if you see two drunk adults fight in the street: they will punch each other in the face... Not punching to the face/getting punched in the face creats lost of problems.
 
bjj for ground game, wrestling for takedowns, and MT for stand up.


either combo is lacking in one deparmtne
KK, Judo has little ground game
BJJ, MT has little take downs.

Need to train something to mix it all together. Thats what makes fedor so deadily.
He is amazing with his hands/legs.. from the clinch he can take anyone down, on the ground he has amazing punching skills as well as formitable submission/positioning.
 
Superbeast said:
Kyokushin Karate is not just for self defence. Ask GSP, Glaube Feitosa and Francisco Filho. KK can be just as effective as Muay Thai, it all comes down to the practitioner. Sherk trains Muay Thai but he got beat on his feet against GSP.

If you were to ask gsp, he'd probably tell you he hasn't trained kyokushin for years. The influence of the style is obvious when you watch him fight, but he trains boxing and muay thai to get ready for a fight. Kyukushin is great, but like judo, if you are looking to fight any time soon, it is not efficacious to try to learn for immediate results. The fighters who have used kyokushin or judo successfully generally acquired a strong base early on, and then made the neccessary adjustments by training in a style or within a framework closer to the sport they intended to compete in (eg fedor stopped training judo and now trains combat sambo, Feitosa and Filho train under k1 rules and supplement with boxing, gsp trains at boxing and muay thai clubs, etc).

If you have ten years, you will learn things from training judo and kyokushin that are often missed by practitioners of other arts, but there will still need to be a peroid of adjustment. If you have any interest in fighting in the next couple of years a blend of muay thai and bjj will give you the most bang for your buck. All you need to do is a quick cost-benefits analysis. For me, the idea of doing a blend of the two has an appeal, but if I ever decide to fight, it won't be any time soon, so it's really just a matter of doing what I enjoy more. If I were planning on training in arts that would have me ready to compete in mma in the next two years, the appeal would diminish considerably.
 
Gsoares2 said:
bjj for ground game, wrestling for takedowns, and MT for stand up.


either combo is lacking in one deparmtne
KK, Judo has little ground game
BJJ, MT has little take downs.

Need to train something to mix it all together. Thats what makes fedor so deadily.
He is amazing with his hands/legs.. from the clinch he can take anyone down, on the ground he has amazing punching skills as well as formitable submission/positioning.

I don't think Fedor has ever been in a Bjj class in all his life...
Just the good old judo...
 
Put your heart into training, and you can make it work.

There is no "secret formula" of styles that makes good MMA, otherwise it would be called BJJ/MT Tournaments.
 
WEICHAFE said:
I don't think Fedor has ever been in a Bjj class in all his life...
Just the good old judo...

Yup, Fedor is a Combat Sambo/Judo guy. Combat Sambo is like Judo with striking and leg locks.
 
stephensharp said:
Yup, Fedor is a Combat Sambo/Judo guy. Combat Sambo is like Judo with striking and leg locks.

and bjj is just judo with more extensive groundwork and more legal submissions, sub wrestling is just bjj without a gi, wrestling is just judo without a gi with more leg attacks and no groundwork, etc. Fedor trains grappling for mma. He has a background in judo which he uses within the context of the sport he now competes in, with additional techniques to accomodate the new rule system. If he was in brazil, they would call it bjj, if he were in america they might call it pancration or subwrestling, but since he's in russia, they call it combat sambo.

the techniques of any grappling sport all consist of the same elements, tweaked to meet the demands of the rules of competition. the reason combat sambo looks like judo with leglocks and strikes is that the practitioners largley come from a background that includes decades of training within the context of a competitive sport that includes alot of upper body throws and leg sweeps utilizing a gi (judo or sport sambo) and have since added strikes and leglocks, in addition to a number of chokes and shoulder locks that would not be allowed or emphasized in the sport they spent a great deal of their lives training in. The techniques seen in sambo are not at all dissimilar to those of any number of grappling styles. The difference is the background each practitioner brings to it and the background of the instructor and training partners they learn the system under.

A bjj practitioner will be shown more or less the same throws and takedowns a wrestler or judoka learns, but their ability to pick them up and use them in competition depends largely on the emphasis placed on those techniques in training or the amount of training they recieved prior to learning bjj.At the end of the day, we're all just trying to do the same things within the context of the various systems of rules we train and compete under, but the average person training combat sambo will not end up looking like a judoka with additional submissions and strikes unless they have the experience of training under a system of rules similar to a judoka, or in the company of trainers/training partners with that sort of background.
 
BabyPhenom said:
Its a good combo. Are you planning to compete in MMA or you just enjoy training?
Probably both, but I am leaning towards Kyukushinkai because it costs 100 month ulimited compared to muay thai here in the city that goes for 180 and more for taining. Judo I am not sure about maybe I might go do BJJ with Fabio Clemente in NYC after the new year. I would like judo but they dont compete as much as BJJ does.

I have trained Muay Thai for about give or take 4 years and I am getting real bored wih it. To be honest if you train muay Thai for 1 year you learnd everything you need to know about traning. I also said my whole like that Black belt means nothng, but I guess the older I am getting I kind of would like to have one at least lol ( gonna get blasted for this) Kyuk is a great systm and does very similar things to muay Thai but I would say a lot better conditioning that is why I picked Kyuk compared to other traditional systems. It is probably the only TMA that rains supreme to the others.

Again the grappling I have no experiance at all with. So it will be a toss up between BJJ and Judo. NY is a big city that offers bot with real quality trainers so I have a good pick, Most likely I might go to Alliance with Fabio clementein the city.
 
WEICHAFE said:
I don't think Fedor has ever been in a Bjj class in all his life...
Just the good old judo...
yeah but he was doing sambo for a long time.. which i said gives him decent all around ground skills. Never said he was a submission guru like nog or anything.
 
morganfreeman said:
If you were to ask gsp, he'd probably tell you he hasn't trained kyokushin for years.

I think that has a lot to do with loyalty to his deceased sensei. It was only after he died of cancer GSP turned to BJJ. I guess he felt it would be wrong to train under anyone else other than the guy who gave him his black belt.
 
I only read that fedor was a BB in Combat sambo never saw that he did Judo
 
thaiking said:
I only read that fedor was a BB in Combat sambo never saw that he did Judo

He came in 3rd at Russian Nationals in Judo. You don't do that by being a "Sambo" guy, like many on here want you to believe.
 
Ko Soto Gari said:
He came in 3rd at Russian Nationals in Judo. You don't do that by being a "Sambo" guy, like many on here want you to believe.

Yeah, no kidding.

Coming in third in the Russian Nationals is more prestigios than winning the Nationals in most countries, including the US.
 
If you train kyokushin/judo throw some boxing in to round it out, again it all depends on the fighter also.
 
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