1. The official Sherdog Store is back! Check it out! » Discuss it here! »

Kyukushin/Judo

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by thaiking, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. Darwinist Super Simian

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Akureyri, Iceland
    I assumed that more or less as a given. You need wrestling no matter what you study. But as offensive arts on the ground and standing up, Muay Thai and BJJ have a very successful track record of being just that little bit better than Judo and KK Karate, Kickboxing etc....., simply because you have more options and familiarity with a wider range of effective weapons.
     
  2. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    16,962
    Likes Received:
    2,869
    Location:
    East Lansing, Michigan
    I hear you.

    Submission-wrestling/catch/shoot-wrestling has a pretty good track-record as well, I would say, especially in the hands of truly adept amateur wrestlers. There's something to recommend using takedowns to initiate grappling from advantageous positions...though, of course...catch-wrestling is a bit more of an athletic style that might not work as well for people lacking in either speed, strength or both.

    What has to be admitted though, is that catch-wrestling does indeed work better from top-position...and the failing of some fighters, such as Kiyoshi Tamura, has been a lack of the amateur wrestling ability necessary to really complete his style. Tamura is an all-time great anyway, but better amateur wrestling skills would have really made him even better.
     
  3. tudor_bjj Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,658
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Romania
    The style it's called Budokai. The grand master is Jon Bluming. The most well-known fighter is Semmy Schilt (this year's K-1 champ). There are 10 dan in Budokai, cause it's different than Kyokushin.
    In competition they are allowed to punch, kick, knee the face (they wear big helmets and MMA-style gloves). They are allowing only 2 x 30 sec. action on the ground in a fight. On the ground you can do chokes, leg locks etc. and can only hit the body with the hand. It's a good mixture, but they are not focusing on the ground work.
    I trained a romanian K-1 style champion in BJJ (for the gound work) in order to get his 2 Dan BB in Budokai. The exam looked like this: 20 x 1,5 min. fights on the ground, kumite: multiple attackers - throw them with judo tech., kumite: mult. att. - kyokushin style fighting, kumite - 40 x 1,5 min., kata, throwings, physical exercises etc. It was tough!
     
  4. Half Boston Crab Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    1,879
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lund, SWEDEN
    Well it's mostly the no head punching rule that I think is a little strange, since it kinda develops a low guard and stuff.

    But if you mix it with boxing to learn to punch high, it obviously works for guys like Andy Hug and Glaube Feitosa etc., so it's all good.
     
  5. blanko Guest

    feels,

    while there might be some truth to your statment... you forget that punching to the face is an "universial attack"; meaning if you see two kids fight: they are going to punch each other in the face, if you see fighters go at it in the UFC: they punch each other in the face, if you see two drunk adults fight in the street: they will punch each other in the face... Not punching to the face/getting punched in the face creats lost of problems.
     
  6. stephensharp Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Andy Hug, Bas Rutten. 'nuff said about KK.
     
  7. Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    bjj for ground game, wrestling for takedowns, and MT for stand up.


    either combo is lacking in one deparmtne
    KK, Judo has little ground game
    BJJ, MT has little take downs.

    Need to train something to mix it all together. Thats what makes fedor so deadily.
    He is amazing with his hands/legs.. from the clinch he can take anyone down, on the ground he has amazing punching skills as well as formitable submission/positioning.
     
  8. morganfreeman Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    new france
    If you were to ask gsp, he'd probably tell you he hasn't trained kyokushin for years. The influence of the style is obvious when you watch him fight, but he trains boxing and muay thai to get ready for a fight. Kyukushin is great, but like judo, if you are looking to fight any time soon, it is not efficacious to try to learn for immediate results. The fighters who have used kyokushin or judo successfully generally acquired a strong base early on, and then made the neccessary adjustments by training in a style or within a framework closer to the sport they intended to compete in (eg fedor stopped training judo and now trains combat sambo, Feitosa and Filho train under k1 rules and supplement with boxing, gsp trains at boxing and muay thai clubs, etc).

    If you have ten years, you will learn things from training judo and kyokushin that are often missed by practitioners of other arts, but there will still need to be a peroid of adjustment. If you have any interest in fighting in the next couple of years a blend of muay thai and bjj will give you the most bang for your buck. All you need to do is a quick cost-benefits analysis. For me, the idea of doing a blend of the two has an appeal, but if I ever decide to fight, it won't be any time soon, so it's really just a matter of doing what I enjoy more. If I were planning on training in arts that would have me ready to compete in mma in the next two years, the appeal would diminish considerably.
     
  9. WEICHAFE White Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CHILE
    I don't think Fedor has ever been in a Bjj class in all his life...
    Just the good old judo...
     
  10. Soulfly Guest

    Put your heart into training, and you can make it work.

    There is no "secret formula" of styles that makes good MMA, otherwise it would be called BJJ/MT Tournaments.
     
  11. stephensharp Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Yup, Fedor is a Combat Sambo/Judo guy. Combat Sambo is like Judo with striking and leg locks.
     
  12. morganfreeman Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    new france
    and bjj is just judo with more extensive groundwork and more legal submissions, sub wrestling is just bjj without a gi, wrestling is just judo without a gi with more leg attacks and no groundwork, etc. Fedor trains grappling for mma. He has a background in judo which he uses within the context of the sport he now competes in, with additional techniques to accomodate the new rule system. If he was in brazil, they would call it bjj, if he were in america they might call it pancration or subwrestling, but since he's in russia, they call it combat sambo.

    the techniques of any grappling sport all consist of the same elements, tweaked to meet the demands of the rules of competition. the reason combat sambo looks like judo with leglocks and strikes is that the practitioners largley come from a background that includes decades of training within the context of a competitive sport that includes alot of upper body throws and leg sweeps utilizing a gi (judo or sport sambo) and have since added strikes and leglocks, in addition to a number of chokes and shoulder locks that would not be allowed or emphasized in the sport they spent a great deal of their lives training in. The techniques seen in sambo are not at all dissimilar to those of any number of grappling styles. The difference is the background each practitioner brings to it and the background of the instructor and training partners they learn the system under.

    A bjj practitioner will be shown more or less the same throws and takedowns a wrestler or judoka learns, but their ability to pick them up and use them in competition depends largely on the emphasis placed on those techniques in training or the amount of training they recieved prior to learning bjj.At the end of the day, we're all just trying to do the same things within the context of the various systems of rules we train and compete under, but the average person training combat sambo will not end up looking like a judoka with additional submissions and strikes unless they have the experience of training under a system of rules similar to a judoka, or in the company of trainers/training partners with that sort of background.
     
  13. thaiking Guest

    Probably both, but I am leaning towards Kyukushinkai because it costs 100 month ulimited compared to muay thai here in the city that goes for 180 and more for taining. Judo I am not sure about maybe I might go do BJJ with Fabio Clemente in NYC after the new year. I would like judo but they dont compete as much as BJJ does.

    I have trained Muay Thai for about give or take 4 years and I am getting real bored wih it. To be honest if you train muay Thai for 1 year you learnd everything you need to know about traning. I also said my whole like that Black belt means nothng, but I guess the older I am getting I kind of would like to have one at least lol ( gonna get blasted for this) Kyuk is a great systm and does very similar things to muay Thai but I would say a lot better conditioning that is why I picked Kyuk compared to other traditional systems. It is probably the only TMA that rains supreme to the others.

    Again the grappling I have no experiance at all with. So it will be a toss up between BJJ and Judo. NY is a big city that offers bot with real quality trainers so I have a good pick, Most likely I might go to Alliance with Fabio clementein the city.
     
  14. Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    yeah but he was doing sambo for a long time.. which i said gives him decent all around ground skills. Never said he was a submission guru like nog or anything.
     
  15. Foolkiller You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Messages:
    8,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Part of the only one holistic system of systems
    I think that has a lot to do with loyalty to his deceased sensei. It was only after he died of cancer GSP turned to BJJ. I guess he felt it would be wrong to train under anyone else other than the guy who gave him his black belt.
     
  16. thaiking Guest

    I only read that fedor was a BB in Combat sambo never saw that he did Judo
     
  17. Ko Soto Gari Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2003
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    0
    He came in 3rd at Russian Nationals in Judo. You don't do that by being a "Sambo" guy, like many on here want you to believe.
     
  18. Darwinist Super Simian

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    18,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Akureyri, Iceland
    Yeah, no kidding.

    Coming in third in the Russian Nationals is more prestigios than winning the Nationals in most countries, including the US.
     
  19. randomg1t EVERYTIME CHAMPION

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    16,845
    Likes Received:
    2,890
     
  20. IronWarrior White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you train kyokushin/judo throw some boxing in to round it out, again it all depends on the fighter also.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.