Kyukushin/Judo

[BestMMA]

Statistically wrestling and bjj (Grappling) are the best styles in MMA.

List of UFC champions (only with Judo background) = 0 :icon_chee:icon_chee

 

[mego]

to each their own, instructors over styles, good combination of striking and td defense and tds themselves

 

[EE6_TBOIO_MATb]

It's a nice mix, but it leaves out a huge aspect of MMA : the boxing part.

Neither will teach you that, and you need a fair amount of that to survive in MMA.

 

[blanko]

any stand up style that doesn't allow you to punch the face is flawed.

 

[Q mystic]

wow. this thread is back from 2005

 

[killer_kicks88]

all you need is something standup based and something ground based...FWIW I'm a kyokushin shodan...and i have to keep boxing here and there to stay used to the punches...I'm also about half way up the latter in judo (very ground heavy school, and lots of no-gi too). So the truth is, we can't tell you if it'll be good, because all these schools train differently, but if you're training under a japanese trained kyokushin karateka...you should be fine......and if your judo school doesn't neglect newaza (think dong-bar!) then you really should be fine there too. GL

 

[BJJK1]

kyukushin+judo almost = daido juku...also known as kudo.

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all that superior, inferior talk is more appropriate in the heavy weight forum.

 

[BJJK1]

any stand up style that doesn't allow you to punch the face is flawed.

that's why kyokushin guys never do well in K1...sammy schilt should just quit now, he'll never win with a flawed system.

 

[Darwinist]

For what it's worth, Daido Juku is the fucking bomb. That's more hardcore than I

 

[NinjaKilla187]

any stand up style that doesn't allow you to punch the face is flawed.

Yup, and its too bad too. Back in the day, Kyokushin was the best thing going. When they dropped punches to the head instead of going to hand protection and/or headgear it kind of crapped out.

And anybody wondering about the qualifications of an instructor need look no further than the list here. http://www.ibk.nl/black-belts/2.html

 

[Blast D*]

Kyokushin Karate is not just for self defence. Ask GSP, Glaube Feitosa and Francisco Filho. KK can be just as effective as Muay Thai, it all comes down to the practitioner. Sherk trains Muay Thai but he got beat on his feet against GSP.

you honestly think GSP was still even training in Karate when he fought Sherk? no, he had advanced to Muay thai and boxing for good.

 

[Ryo]

Statistically wrestling and bjj (Grappling) are the best styles in MMA.

List of UFC champions (only with Judo background) = 0 :icon_chee:icon_chee

Um... list of UFC champions with only a BJJ background = 0

List of UFC champions with only 1 background, and never trained in anything else = 0

 

[Ryo]

you honestly think GSP was still even training in Karate when he fought Sherk? no, he had advanced to Muay thai and boxing for good.

GSP is heavily influenced by his Karate background. Infact in his first amatuer MMA fight, the only thing he had trained was KK Karate. He knocked a boxer out with a high kick.
He trains Muay Thai and Boxing now because it's strickly sport style fighting. He trains rediculous amounts of time around the clock. They stick to a clear cut regiment. No need to throw on a gi and train bareknuckle fighting when your gonna be wearing gloves and fighting in a cage in boarding shorts and clocking eachother in the head.

Has nothing to do with effectiveness. Neither does it mean he is not still a Karate style standup fighter. It's very obvious from the way he fights. He still fights in a very Karate like style. In the same way as Lyoto Machida. I can't believe people still talk crap about the effectiveness of Karate. You would think with the numerous pros who stand by it, and the many many great Kickboxers it has produced (The best in the world) people would start wising up a bit.

Some of the best fighters in the world have come from both Judo and Karate. There can be absolutey no doubt about the effectiveness of either.

 

[TsukinoKage]

Theorizing is great, but in practice Kyokushin matches are a whole 'nother animal. Muay Thai itself has a whole different strategy than MMA striking, but I think it much closer approximates it than KK.

KK matches are basically a blitz on who is the toughest and can hit hardest. I'm not ragging on technique, because KK can be very technical, but when a knockdown or backing up results in an automatic loss, you really have to tailor your strategy to suit the rules. I'm not even gonna go into the "no head shots" rule, because that obviously changes the game completely. Exactly as a guy said before, the range and strategy in KK is different than any other sport out there. Just watch any match and realize it looks completely different than any kickboxing/MMA.


Even the KK greats like Hug and Filho had to deal with inferior boxing through their whole careers, and those are two of the best KK fighters of all time. If you're gonna bring up Schilt, I think the more relevant discussion is his massive reach advantage rather than any specific style he trained in. The guy could be a Kung Fu fighter for all we know, his jabs basically beat out any punch in the sport. Are we gonna say "Karate training taught Semmy how to stick his giant hand out and KO people from 10 feet away"?


As for Judo, it's a great overall grappling style, but a vast number of their techniques are gi dependent. Everyone says "you can adapt it" but that's basically eliminating all types of setups, footwork, chains and grip fighting strategy in favor of basic over/under hook clinches. If you do that, why not just train wrestling? Why not save your time learning 20 different entrances and grips you'll never use for a seionage when you could go to wrestling practice and learn the arm throw without any no-gi modifications or adaptation?

Not only that, but a lot of the throws are so Ippon-focused that they favor velocity and landing a clean point over control, which basically lands you in a shitty positio. That's why you see Karo, supposedly one of the best-adapted Judo MMA fighters, having a higher percentage of landing in a good position with a basic double leg than he does with his Judo throws (why would you throw someone just to end up on the bottom?) And sure, they have groundwork too, but if you're focusing on MMA, why not just learn from the best, who are most clearly the BJJ guys?

 

[Q mystic]

Um... list of UFC champions with only a BJJ background = 0

List of UFC champions with only 1 background, and never trained in anything else = 0

Royce Gracie

 

[Q mystic]

Theorizing is great, but in practice Kyokushin matches are a whole 'nother animal. Muay Thai itself has a whole different strategy than MMA striking, but I think it much closer approximates it than KK.

KK matches are basically a blitz on who is the toughest and can hit hardest. I'm not ragging on technique, because KK can be very technical, but when a knockdown or backing up results in an automatic loss, you really have to tailor your strategy to suit the rules. I'm not even gonna go into the "no head shots" rule, because that obviously changes the game completely. Exactly as a guy said before, the range and strategy in KK is different than any other sport out there. Just watch any match and realize it looks completely different than any kickboxing/MMA.


Even the KK greats like Hug and Filho had to deal with inferior boxing through their whole careers, and those are two of the best KK fighters of all time. If you're gonna bring up Schilt, I think the more relevant discussion is his massive reach advantage rather than any specific style he trained in. The guy could be a Kung Fu fighter for all we know, his jabs basically beat out any punch in the sport. Are we gonna say "Karate training taught Semmy how to stick his giant hand out and KO people from 10 feet away"?


As for Judo, it's a great overall grappling style, but a vast number of their techniques are gi dependent. Everyone says "you can adapt it" but that's basically eliminating all types of setups, footwork, chains and grip fighting strategy in favor of basic over/under hook clinches. If you do that, why not just train wrestling? Why not save your time learning 20 different entrances and grips you'll never use for a seionage when you could go to wrestling practice and learn the arm throw without any no-gi modifications or adaptation?

Not only that, but a lot of the throws are so Ippon-focused that they favor velocity and landing a clean point over control, which basically lands you in a shitty positio. That's why you see Karo, supposedly one of the best-adapted Judo MMA fighters, having a higher percentage of landing in a good position with a basic double leg than he does with his Judo throws (why would you throw someone just to end up on the bottom?) And sure, they have groundwork too, but if you're focusing on MMA, why not just learn from the best, who are most clearly the BJJ guys?

Some good points. I don't think that there is much that I learned in stand-up after my 1st 4 years in judo that I would use in nogi stand-up(except just better mechanics of my own physical abilities ie balance, trajectories etc). After that 4 years tho I was primarily training 'techs' what will work vs my experienced, often repeated opponents in judo rules contest. At 4 years tho I had a good grasp of plenty that translates very easily to nogi. I had plenty shoulder and hip throws down as well as plenty trips and foot-sweeps. They were very strong basic mechanics that I was able to use quite well in wrestling right off the bat. I do feel that you will learn more pick-ups after 4 years or so in judo and that they can be beneficial. I didn't really work them tho, personally.

I think the most I learned on the ground that would most be beneficial in grappling or mma might have been around the 3-7 year period. I mean, I learned the basic subs pretty soon and they would work on opponents that were newer as well but it took some time before we were actually trained to the more complex(tighter) sub game. As for ground work in scrambling, I learned switchs, sit-thrus and sit-outs in wrestling in the 1st year and not in judo till about the 2nd or 3rd or longer.

This is the type of system I learned and it might differ from club to club from what I read but it is a 'system' of learning in judo for a reason that I tend to believe in. Judo is just a slow process and I believe more methodical than the what the majority have the patience to learn and appreciate.

I do believe that Karo does have the most and 'most glamorous' throws in mma(only partially cuz he's lighter) but, IMO, he is the 'only one' that often overthrows...(partially cuz he's lighter). You watch the lightweights in judo and some of them guys throw each other like both are somersaulting in the air.LOL. Overthrows can be dangerous and should be easy to prevent imo. But double legs can be dangerous as well as a great move. The have been more subs losses from the shot than any throw I have seen as well as that I have seen more throw KO's happen the shooter of doubles than the shot on....or its gotta be close anyway. But we all do them cuz they can work.

Just like in bjj and wrestling, there is plenty in judo that we wouldn't see in grappling or mma and those guys in any, who are interested in grapplin/mma would do extra well to pay extra attention to the basics of each. Thats all that I have seen that consistantly works is the basics.

 

[YeahBee]

Every champ started out in a specialized field

I think you need to do that to become as good in one area as you need to be

Franklin is a MMA guy from the start he has no background in wrestling, bjj or thai, thus he gets overwhelmed by the thai guy and would have lost to the BJJ guy if he had had gas

GSP seem to be the "only" wellrounded guy that can and does really triumph ,and he is one heck of a wrestler now, Imagine if he had started with wrestling instead of karate?

 

[radman]

Kyokushin Karate is not just for self defence. Ask GSP, Glaube Feitosa and Francisco Filho. KK can be just as effective as Muay Thai, it all comes down to the practitioner. Sherk trains Muay Thai but he got beat on his feet against GSP.

But they modified it to Strike the head. But seriosously you can learn these differenct disciplines, but for MMA you have to modify it for MMA.

With Judo, since their competitions primarily dont allow you to pull guard, your going to use your Judo help you with takedowns and pinning and some submissions from the top.

If you choose Judo, I hope your school has been influenced by BJJ and Wrestling- I.E. Oishi Judo in NYC.

Oh yeah, I had the opportunity to train Kyokushin when I was a kid, but now Im lucky to train in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo.

Ironically what I learn in Judo and BJJ complement each other when Im training either of these discplines.

 

[Ahee. GX]

you honestly think GSP was still even training in Karate when he fought Sherk? no, he had advanced to Muay thai and boxing for good.

Yeah who cares.
Andy Hug and a ton of k1 guys are pure Kyokushin and they've won alot.

Everyone saying boxing is the best for mma, well, any stand-up style without grappling experience or take-down defense = owned.

 

[Plissken]

Kyokushin Karate is not just for self defence. Ask GSP, Glaube Feitosa and Francisco Filho. KK can be just as effective as Muay Thai, it all comes down to the practitioner. Sherk trains Muay Thai but he got beat on his feet against GSP.

He's also about 5 inches shorter than GSP with super short arms though.