Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

[Discipulus]

I actually like that SS's friend acknowledges that. There is literally nothing but honor stopping fighters from going for that one nut shot or eye poke.

Groin shots are the kind of thing that I'd only go for if the opponent opens the door first. I'd never deliberately be the first one to hit my opponent in the balls. But you can be damn sure that if I suspect he's hitting me low on purpose, I'm gonna start loading up on some very low uppercuts. I won't link it again, but in a great interview Nacho Beristain talked about one of his fighters winning a world championship as a result of low blows; the opponent was fouling him over and over without the referee stepping in, and Nacho flat-out ordered his fighter to hit him low. After some protest he did as he was told, and won the fight.

Think of Collazo vs Khan. Khan fouled Collazo constantly in that fight, holding him, pushing his head down, holding and hitting, etc. Collazo did nothing but throw his hands up in exasperation, which only made him look like he was getting outworked, which he was. By the time the ref actually got around to deducting a point from Khan, Collazo was frustrated enough to get his own point deduction on a blatant foul just moments later.

Basically, he lost the fight because he wasn't willing to respond to fouls in kind until he was so frustrated that he couldn't do it with subtlety and poise. As a result, he never looked like he was in control, and he was worn down by Khan's superior strategy. In combat sports, you have to be able to show the guy that he can't bully you, whether it's within the rules or not. Even if you end up getting a point taken away, you send a clear message to your opponent by getting dirty back. We've seen an awful lot of terrible officiating over the years, so it always shocks me when fighters think they can rely on the referee to save them from a dirty opponent.

 

[HighestHand]

Yeah that's what I mean there's really no honor in a shot like that. I supposed I would get pissed too if someone does it to me. I may do it back on purpose if he's being a duck about it but I would never initiate it.

Those people he calls stupid are way better sportsman than he is.

This brings up a question, how many fouls is enough for you? Obviously the first one may be an accident and the second one too, and the second one too like the GSP fight vs... I forget... Matt Hughes part II? So when enough?

 

[Discipulus]

Yeah that's what I mean there's really no honor in a shot like that. I supposed I would get pissed too if someone does it to me. I may do it back on purpose if he's being a duck about it but I would never initiate it.

Those people he calls stupid are way better sportsman than he is.

This brings up a question, how many fouls is enough for you? Obviously the first one may be an accident and the second one too, and the second one too like the GSP fight vs... I forget... Matt Hughes part II? So when enough?

I think it depends on context, but I've never been in that situation so it's hard to say. Maybe someone with more experience can give their opinion. Or maybe this should be it's own thread.

 

[JohnSouth]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think KM is a total waste. It's good for specific scenarios and certain types of training, IMO.

But if you want to fight with your hands, learn boxing. If you want to add elbows, knees and kicks, learn Muay Thai. If you want to grapple, learn wrestling and/or BJJ.

If you want to learn about real world violence, read about it and apply your martial arts training accordingly.

I know KM attempts to be a jack of all trades but they literally do each aspect of fighting worse then the respective arts.

I agree, it's good for a mugging or sudden attack where you can surprise an untrained fighter but not good for a situation where the guy is any good and he is ready for you.

You have to wonder about the value of training to only fight people who can't fight by surprise. They had one of these IDF commandos in the cage once, he didn't do too well.

There are some times where you have to kick some guy's ass and it's not really self defense it's more like "stay away from my girl" or he's talking way too much shit. You don't want to maim him and it's not going to be a sucker punch.

It sucks to think you are not much better than everyone else despite wasting your time at KM classes every week.

 

[Tank_Kam]

Thanks for the new Sig

LOL! nice

 

[SummerStriker]

He's not my friend.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

What happens when you guys fight a woman? Kick to the cooch?
Seriously though, most fights I've seen end with one guy curled in a ball and the other fella gets tired and leaves, that or they get dragged apart. If somebody tried to gouge my eyes or break my finger, I would be stomping and soccer kicking them for a long time. You playing dirty means they play dirty, live with the consequences.

 

[HighestHand]

I apologize for the assumption summer.

@Disciplus, maybe if he could come up with a remotely decent reason. But in my knowledge there's really no honor in initiating a foul attack on every guy in the first round just to gas them a bit.

And Nakmuay I disagree sometimes a preemptive strike can be a potential fight ender. Not always but it happens.

 

[kpt018]

What happens when you guys fight a woman? Kick to the cooch?
Seriously though, most fights I've seen end with one guy curled in a ball and the other fella gets tired and leaves, that or they get dragged apart. If somebody tried to gouge my eyes or break my finger, I would be stomping and soccer kicking them for a long time. You playing dirty means they play dirty, live with the consequences.

Be careful or the consequences for you would be jail time. The judge isn't going to care if he tried to hit you in the nuts. If he's eating out of a straw in a hospital because you went Pele on his ass after he was down, it's not going to be good.

And lol @ kick to the cooch. That does work too man.

 

[kpt018]

I agree, it's good for a mugging or sudden attack where you can surprise an untrained fighter but not good for a situation where the guy is any good and he is ready for you.

You have to wonder about the value of training to only fight people who can't fight by surprise. They had one of these IDF commandos in the cage once, he didn't do too well.

There are some times where you have to kick some guy's ass and it's not really self defense it's more like "stay away from my girl" or he's talking way too much shit. You don't want to maim him and it's not going to be a sucker punch.

It sucks to think you are not much better than everyone else despite wasting your time at KM classes every week.

For sure. If you want to be good fighters you are going to have to become one (by training with and sparring against other good fighters). That's the big knock in traditional arts but also KM. Limited, if any, live sparring.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Be careful or the consequences for you would be jail time. The judge isn't going to care if he tried to hit you in the nuts. If he's eating out of a straw in a hospital because you went Pele on his ass after he was down, it's not going to be good.

And lol @ kick to the cooch. That does work too man.

Realistically I haven't been in a bar fight since before I started training, I'm a grown up.
I'm just point out that fist fights are one thing, if you try frigging biting people and poking people in the eyes and you end up in trouble, your not going to get beat up, your going to get stomped into a bloody mess. It's escalation.
As far as the legal aspect, if you get into a fight and the cops pick you up, chances are if it's a couple of bloody noses and a split lip you'll both get a night in the cells and fine. If one of you has bite marks and ruptured eye ball, your going down.

 

[kpt018]

Realistically I haven't been in a bar fight since before I started training, I'm a grown up.
I'm just point out that fist fights are one thing, if you try frigging biting people and poking people in the eyes and you end up in trouble, your not going to get beat up, your going to get stomped into a bloody mess. It's escalation.
As far as the legal aspect, if you get into a fight and the cops pick you up, chances are if it's a couple of bloody noses and a split lip you'll both get a night in the cells and fine. If one of you has bite marks and ruptured eye ball, your going down.

No, I gotcha. Your point about escalating during a fight is a good one.

And at my age a bar fight is going to be rare.

I just think people completely miss out on reality sometimes. Like the dude who thinks you should preemptively eye gouge someone. Great, that's called assault idiot (and is serious). It just sounded like you may have thought it's ok to stomp someone out because they escalated it first. And while you're right, that's reality, there's also the reality of what happens after.

 

[HighestHand]

No, I gotcha. Your point about escalating during a fight is a good one.

And at my age a bar fight is going to be rare.

I just think people completely miss out on reality sometimes. Like the dude who thinks you should preemptively eye gouge someone. Great, that's called assault idiot (and is serious). It just sounded like you may have thought it's ok to stomp someone out because they escalated it first. And while you're right, that's reality, there's also the reality of what happens after.

Dude I meant preemptive dirty strikes when you're actually IN combat. Hence the "fight ender" part. No need to call me an idiot. And that doesn't limit to eye gouge, you can nut shot the dude.

Some guy picks a fight with you and doesn't back down and you try to walk away but he swings at you. So you're going to slug it out with him? I wouldn't. And as long as there are witnesses around, and you acted like you were going to back down and he wouldn't let you, you're going to be off the hook man. IF you were trying to back down and the dude wouldn't let you go, then even a crappy lawyer can argue his way out of this one. If there are no witnesses, then get the hell out.

and @Nak. "if you try frigging biting people and poking people in the eyes and you end up in trouble, your not going to get beat up, your going to get stomped into a bloody mess. It's escalation."
If you were in a fight with someone, a fight you didn't want to be in, and the dude starts swinging and you poke his eyes and nut shot him, you already have the advantage. You have the upper hand here so how on earth is he going to stomp you into a bloody mess?

Besides that fact, most people on the street are NOT you. They are NOT trained and are probably drunk or trying to give themselves an ego boost. If you were UNTRAINED, and in the fight you got him with a dirty shot first, whats stopping you from "stomping him into a bloody mess" instead of the other way around?
So stop associating to what you think you would do to what an untrained guy starting shit in the street will do.

 

[kpt018]

Dude I meant preemptive dirty strikes when you're actually IN combat. Hence the "fight ender" part. No need to call me an idiot. And that doesn't limit to eye gouge, you can nut shot the dude.

Some guy picks a fight with you and doesn't back down and you try to walk away but he swings at you. So you're going to slug it out with him? I wouldn't. And as long as there are witnesses around, and you acted like you were going to back down and he wouldn't let you, you're going to be off the hook man. IF you were trying to back down and the dude wouldn't let you go, then even a crappy lawyer can argue his way out of this one. If there are no witnesses, then get the hell out.

and @Nak. "if you try frigging biting people and poking people in the eyes and you end up in trouble, your not going to get beat up, your going to get stomped into a bloody mess. It's escalation."
If you were in a fight with someone, a fight you didn't want to be in, and the dude starts swinging and you poke his eyes and nut shot him, you already have the advantage. You have the upper hand here so how on earth is he going to stomp you into a bloody mess?

Besides that fact, most people on the street are NOT you. They are NOT trained and are probably drunk or trying to give themselves an ego boost. If you were UNTRAINED, and in the fight you got him with a dirty shot first, whats stopping you from "stomping him into a bloody mess" instead of the other way around?
So stop associating to what you think you would do to what an untrained guy starting shit in the street will do.

Well, if you were attacked, that isn't preemptive, is it? And if that's what you meant, ok, I am not calling you an idiot but someone who would actually attack first with an eye gouge.

As for your comments to Nak, well, he's right in many cases.

If two dudes were arguing and going to fight, it's just that, a fist fight. If one uses dirty tactics, or a weapon, etc., he escalated it. The other guy will either GTFO there or escalate his violence.

I have no idea how you jump to conclude who wins (the whole thing is in your head) but the stakes have been raised in this case. It's no longer "I'm going to be more manly and punch you in the face" it's now "I'm going to put you in the hospital".

 

[Ayin]

Yes, and in this situation of a life threat they train muay thai, boxing, bjj, mma or krav maga?

They train whatever they are trained in. You make it seem like soldiers/police/ect get some kind of choice as to the skills they are taught in regards to hand to hand combat. They don't. They are taught whatever they are taught, and in general they are taught a quick and simple, but not overly effective (and not taught that well) form of Hand to Hand combat that they will likely never use, which they are never intended to use.

But im sure someone wil come and say there are plenty police officers practicing BJJ in theyr dojos. I really guess is a matter of choice. What about that? Can you respect that?

And here you are, actually mistaking a skill that group (military/police) are voluntarily learning in their off time, with something they are taught as part of their job, just as I said you were doing above.

Muay Thai doesnt cover weapon defense . . . or being attacked from behind . . . or anything else like real life.

You're right, it, and most effective arts, teach you to remain calm and focused, and defend yourself against a single conditioned, equally focused and also skilled opponent, likely of your own size or near it.

Before you conclude: 'See! There are weight classes and time limits! And certain attacks are prohibitied!' Consider that, VERY LIKELY, the art you are trying to talk up DOESN'T prepare you to adequately defend yourself against even one skilled and conditioned opponent of approximately your own size, yet likely claims that it somehow CAN allow you to defend yourself against multiple attackers, weapons, ect.

If you can't beat one person who is about your size under limited rules, how are you going to do more than that? If you can't count to ten, how are you going to count to one-hundred?

It teaches you, like most striking arts, to circle around and try to find range in a wide open environment

leaving certain parts of body wide open to damage. That may work if you are lucky, but in a real fight such scenarios are actually very, very rare. [/QUOTE]

First of all, for Muay Thai specifically, it teaches you to circle around/out, but certainly NOT in a wide open environment. In fact, it teaches you in a constrained area with corners, and teaches you how to avoid becoming trapped in those corners, how to maneuver away from them, how to trap your opponent in them and how to maneuver them into them. It teaches spacial awareness, and the benefits of using your environment. You just see a 'ring', because you don't know what you're talking about.

Does reading this help? Has your opinion changed? Do you feel the need to go out, become educated and stop speaking out of ignorance?

leaving certain parts of body wide open to damage. That may work if you are lucky, but in a real fight such scenarios are actually very, very rare.

This is too dumb to even discuss.

And assuming you will never get in a fight with a guy with a knife, or a baseball bat, or a broken bottle, or a gun just concedes the fight to your opponent before it has begun.

And again, we come back to the same point. If you can't adequately defend yourself against a single dedicated and skilled attacker of near equal size in a rules limited environment, how do you think you're going to do so in any of these above situations?


If you want to be as ready as possible for physical combat, you should first make yourself a skilled combatant in 'limited' rules environments. Once you have these foundational skills, expand out for other situations (weapons, ect).

The problem with most 'Special Forces' bullshido is that they skip the first part, which is hard to do and even harder to be able to PRETEND to do, and go straight to the second part, which is easy to pretend to be able to do.

 

[HighestHand]

Well, if you were attacked, that isn't preemptive, is it? And if that's what you meant, ok, I am not calling you an idiot but someone who would actually attack first with an eye gouge.

As for your comments to Nak, well, he's right in many cases.

If two dudes were arguing and going to fight, it's just that, a fist fight. If one uses dirty tactics, or a weapon, etc., he escalated it. The other guy will either GTFO there or escalate his violence.

I have no idea how you jump to conclude who wins (the whole thing is in your head) but the stakes have been raised in this case. It's no longer "I'm going to be more manly and punch you in the face" it's now "I'm going to put you in the hospital".

Okay, I may have used pre-emptive in a wrong context, but what I meant is that you use the dirty attacks first in midst of all the thrown punches. Maybe I should have said instead "retaliate by initially..." But I do agree with you that randomly eye gouging guys just because he bumped you is idiotic and maybe even evil.

And regarding Nak's comment, you can't say for sure that whoever escalated it will lose. Nak's saying that if some guy starts using dirty tactics, then the other guy will also start and then stomp the first guy into the ground. I believe that logic is flawed.

His exact quote is "If somebody tried to gouge my eyes or break my finger, I would be stomping and soccer kicking them for a long time."
Now maybe Nak would do that, maybe he wouldn't. But imagine if the other guy isn't trained like Nak is.

If the first guy uses dirty tactics first, then he already has the second guy (insert the theoretical untrained nak here) stunned and in my opinion is in a MUCH higher chance to finish the fight with other combos coming. I never said that the first guy will definitely win, I'm saying what's stopping the first guy who used the dirty tactics first to "stomp that guy" as opposed to the second guy who was on the receiving end of the dirty tactics to "stomp the first guy" as Nak said.

 

[Ayin]

It should be noted, REALLY noted, that most 'dirty tactics' aren't fight-enders. Most of them are attacks that will do damage, yes, but are rarely capable of inflicting the kind of damage needed to totally stop someone hell-bent on hurting you.

For example, there is a "dangerous, violent, and unstable" (his families words) semi-homeless drug addict floating around my are who doesn't like me too much. If we run into each other, biting him, eye gouging him, hitting him in the groin, none of these are attacks that I would put faith into stopping him, or anyone else who is REALLY dedicated to hurting you, which is what these 'dirty' martial arts are all about teaching, moves for teh realz/"The Street!"

You know what I WOULD put faith in to stop him? Broken bones. Fully applied chokes. Knock outs or solid shots to the body.

If you're trained, you're trained to do what you do. That's a pretty unpopular point around sherdog but I agree with it. If you do MMA, you're not looking for the occasional nut shot, you look for take down or control or to knock out. If you're untrained you'd have so much adrenaline running through you, you won't know what to do.
.

One of the reasons it's such an 'unpopular' point is that it's ridiculous to think that an untrained person will panic and do nothing, and that a trained person will remain calm and yet ONLY be able to apply the specific things they've learned.

Most 'martial arts' train people in un-applied skills in unreasonable situations but somehow feel they will be able to make them work in 'self defence' situations when they can't even make them work in a duel (a one on one fight with limited rules in 'fair' conditions).

Martial arts that actually train to apply their skills (like Muay Thai, but lets use boxing as the example here) see their competitors skilled enough and CALM enough under pressure (do to becoming comfortable with the idea and experience of someone actually fighting them) to also be able to improvise under pressure.

Boxing is FILLED with examples of 'dirty fighters' who can land attacks to the groin, ect. They can land these attacks in the midst of a full contact fight against a fully skilled and resisting opponent who is also trying to hurt them, often with a huge level of stealth (for the ref not to see).

This brings up a question, how many fouls is enough for you? Obviously the first one may be an accident and the second one too, and the second one too like the GSP fight vs... I forget... Matt Hughes part II? So when enough?

Hughes vs GSP 2 is a terrible example, or rather a better example of someone faking a foul. There were good breakdowns and interviews after the fact about it. What it really showed was that some guys (GSP) are willing to abandon an effective and legal technique if it even gives the appearance of cheating, and other guys are very willing to pretend, like half of Koschek's fights, and faking fouls or taking advantage of the appearance of them.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

And regarding Nak's comment, you can't say for sure that whoever escalated it will lose. Nak's saying that if some guy starts using dirty tactics, then the other guy will also start and then stomp the first guy into the ground. I believe that logic is flawed.

His exact quote is "If somebody tried to gouge my eyes or break my finger, I would be stomping and soccer kicking them for a long time."

We'll done you read the sentence, now put it in the context of the paragraph.....
I'm being as simple as possible, but your obviously the lowest common denominator, I'll try one last time.

If you be nasty to man, man be nasty to you. When you try to permanently disfigure person, person will....?
Google escalation.

 

[SummerStriker]

There are different levels of fighting dirty. When I do small glove sparring, for my own amusement, when I come up against someone who fights with their hands open, I'll jab but instead of trying to hit their face, I'll grab a finger. If from free movement range I ripped someone's finger off sideways, he might have a problem: worst still if I were to dance off sideways, let him catch his breath, and then say, "check your finger bro," so that he gets the full experience of pain through the adrenaline.

On the other hand, trying to stick your thumb in their eye while they are throwing dominant clinch knees is going to get your ass beat.

Dirty fighting isn't one size fits all. You have to apply it in the greater context of good tactics.

 

[kpt018]

We'll done you read the sentence, now put it in the context of the paragraph.....
I'm being as simple as possible, but your obviously the lowest common denominator, I'll try one last time.

If you be nasty to man, man be nasty to you. When you try to permanently disfigure person, person will....?
Google escalation.

I didn't think what you said is even arguable.

Two guys start mouthing off - at this point it's not physical.

One guy pushes the other - it's physical and now escalated to a fist fight.

The guys are fighting and one picks up a brick/kicks to the nuts/bites/insert dirty tactic - this is no longer simply a fist fight, someone could get hospitalized.

One guy pulls out a gun - this shit is now to the death.

It's totally uncontroversial and anyone who hasn't lived under a rock realizes this is how violence typically occurs and how it can escalate. Of course this is one type of violence and one example (we aren't talking about a guy who is looking to rob you, gang violence, etc.).