Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

[SummerStriker]

Single stick in Krav Maga and Kali is nothing like a baseball bat.

 

[DCSpartan]

Single stick in Krav Maga and Kali is nothing like a baseball bat.

Someone comes at with you an escrima stick, walking cane, or baseball bat you should be thinking about crashing in if you get the chance, running away otherwise. You arent going to be fighting them at range.

If you have a defensive technique that only works against baseball bats, share it, we'll try it out and drill it. Like I said, no emotional attachment to past techniques if there are better ones.

 

[SummerStriker]

Someone comes at with you an escrima stick, walking cane, or baseball bat you should be thinking about crashing in if you get the chance, running away otherwise. You arent going to be fighting them at range.

If you have a defensive technique that only works against baseball bats, share it, we'll try it out and drill it. Like I said, no emotional attachment to past techniques if there are better ones.

I don't have a problem with a defined baseball bat move, but a lot of people who do Kali think they are training for a bat when really they are training to dodge something about six inches shorter. The retrada works a whole lot differently when the tip of the bat and the sweet stop are a few inches further apart.

Beyond that, crashing a baseball bat is much harder because the swing, even done right, will carry more energy than the student is used to and so they are likely to get knocked back and hurt by it because they are too soft from all the single stick polite auto stopping on blocks.

I believe in baseball bat defense completely if it is the right move, but nothing done with a Kali stick is it.

 

[DCSpartan]

I don't have a problem with a defined baseball bat move, but a lot of people who do Kali think they are training for a bat when really they are training to dodge something about six inches shorter. The retrada works a whole lot differently when the tip of the bat and the sweet stop are a few inches further apart.

Beyond that, crashing a baseball bat is much harder because the swing, even done right, will carry more energy than the student is used to and so they are likely to get knocked back and hurt by it because they are too soft from all the single stick polite auto stopping on blocks.

I believe in baseball bat defense completely if it is the right move, but nothing done with a Kali stick is it.

you arent going to block either with your arms, so you need contact with the body. Agree the length is a factor, but you need to be going all in on making contact.

Your best bet is for the numbskull is telegraphing the swing and really pulling back on the bat.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

It's not used for pulling though it's for pushing. Think of it more like a pitchfork and the thumb is one of the prongs, the fingers the other prong and you have the opponents arm in between.

Yeah exactly, like how Disciplus describes. James Mcsweeney shows it here just with different entry at 5:30
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That's one of the best clinch videos I've seen, very nice.

That's the move I was thinking of, but I was taught it a little different. I was taught to pinch my head to my shoulder then push away then down. That way you almost get a shoulder lock to stop the guy muscling out.

 

[SummerStriker]

It's not used for pulling though it's for pushing. Think of it more like a pitchfork and the thumb is one of the prongs, the fingers the other prong and you have the opponents arm in between.

Yeah exactly, like how Disciplus describes. James Mcsweeney shows it here just with different entry at 5:30
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I don't understand how these moves work.

It reminds me of when I took Silat, or hell, even Systema. I don't understand how you can bend someone down with one hand sideways on their face. If someone got the double collar tie on me, I don't really believe I could get them to bend over by pushing on the side of their head with one hand, no matter how hard I tried.

What am I missing?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Which ones troubling you summer?
If your pushing against the top of somebody's head and pulling on their arms, you can generate a lot of leverage. I've never used the first one but it looks legit, the last one I use a lot.
As for pushing somebody over with one hand, if I catch somebody right I can bend them with a shoulder roll, that's just using my neck and shoulder.
Give them a try and see how you get on.

 

[SummerStriker]

Which ones troubling you summer?
If your pushing against the top of somebody's head and pulling on their arms, you can generate a lot of leverage. I've never used the first one but it looks legit, the last one I use a lot.
As for pushing somebody over with one hand, if I catch somebody right I can bend them with a shoulder roll, that's just using my neck and shoulder.
Give them a try and see how you get on.

Yeah, I plan on giving them a try. The only ones I ever use are the big, gross motor ones: crossface and pummel, push their head down for top position, and posture up and run them to the wall or body lock. I've always wanted to learn some of these kinds of counters but I've never been able to make them work well.

Sense you guys think this video is good, I'll see if I can use them tomorrow night.

That last sweep looks really cool.

I was more worried about the earlier ones like at 2:44.

Thanks

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Yeah, I plan on giving them a try. The only ones I ever use are the big, gross motor ones: crossface and pummel, push their head down for top position, and posture up and run them to the wall or body lock. I've always wanted to learn some of these kinds of counters but I've never been able to make them work well.

Sense you guys think this video is good, I'll see if I can use them tomorrow night.

That last sweep looks really cool.

I was more worried about the earlier ones like at 2:44.

Thanks

See the thing is, you can't let the guy establish control, as soon as he pulls your head down the first move won't work anymore. You have to use this the second you feel the double collar attach. The guys also not going to bend in two like the demonstration. His head will come down and across some, but not all the way over.

 

[kpt018]

Does anyone in here think there's a benefit to training from difficult positions (on the floor, choked from behind, bear hug, etc.), like what is trained in Krav?

I've trained both (KM a very reputable school in my area) and I think Muay Thai does every aspect of striking better and it's not close. I also have no doubts that good Thai boxers can easily translate their training to self defense. I do believe that training from compromised positions and trying to simulate surprise, fighting in the cold, etc., does have benefits for self defense.

I think the gun disarms can be mostly bullshit, but the bat/stick/knife stuff seems good. I'm not fucking batman, so I would never try it in a real situation.

Obviously the best thing for self defense is awareness (which in turn helps avoid it).

 

[HighestHand]

^^

Let's just say that if you have sparring experience (dodging strikes, takedowns, groundwork, basically MMA or even just striking or jj) then adding Krav Maga to your arsenal is very helpful via knowledge of fighting dirty.

Besides, the gun disarms and stuff aren't for when you're being robbed and stuff so you can do that. It's for when he wants to kill you and it is a last ditch effort to survive.

 

[SummerStriker]

See the thing is, you can't let the guy establish control, as soon as he pulls your head down the first move won't work anymore. You have to use this the second you feel the double collar attach. The guys also not going to bend in two like the demonstration. His head will come down and across some, but not all the way over.

Makes sense, thanks!

I'll try it out.

 

[kpt018]

^^

Let's just say that if you have sparring experience (dodging strikes, takedowns, groundwork, basically MMA or even just striking or jj) then adding Krav Maga to your arsenal is very helpful via knowledge of fighting dirty.

Besides, the gun disarms and stuff aren't for when you're being robbed and stuff so you can do that. It's for when he wants to kill you and it is a last ditch effort to survive.

I agree with your first point, but I think the "dirty fighting" is overblown a bit. Anyone can fight dirty. I think the bigger advantage is training from disadvantaged positions. Most of the Krav guys I have trained with have backgrounds in other arts.

And yes, I get what the gun disarms are for. I just think that the time can be more wisely spent on other stuff, but I get it. I think the knife/stick/bat defense stuff is pretty good.

 

[HighestHand]

I agree with your first point, but I think the "dirty fighting" is overblown a bit. Anyone can fight dirty. I think the bigger advantage is training from disadvantaged positions. Most of the Krav guys I have trained with have backgrounds in other arts.

And yes, I get what the gun disarms are for. I just think that the time can be more wisely spent on other stuff, but I get it. I think the knife/stick/bat defense stuff is pretty good.

True, dirty fighting is over blown but only to martial artists. Of all the fights you see (real life or video) you pretty much only see guys trying to sucker punch each other in the face. These are untrained people. You rarely or never see guys going finger breaks eye gouge or groin shots. All they care about is blasting the head.

If you're trained, you're trained to do what you do. That's a pretty unpopular point around sherdog but I agree with it. If you do MMA, you're not looking for the occasional nut shot, you look for take down or control or to knock out. If you're untrained you'd have so much adrenaline running through you, you won't know what to do.

I personally have only been in two fights and both were broken up. When I was untrained, some guy who knew wushu tried to kick me in the head and I retaliated by grabbing his leg and punched him in the stomach and then we both rolled to the ground before being separated. I wasn't thinking about eye gouging or groin shots and neither was he. Another one I had a punch to my face after talking shit (my wrong doing) and I staggered then I took him down after a couple of BJJ classes. We were separated before any more punches were thrown. Once again I was going to punch him in the head and he already punched me in the head. When adrenaline rolls, all you care about is punching that guy in the head. But then again, it may only be me. I'm sure more trained people will be able to see it coming and attack calmly.

I'm not saying NO one ever thinks about it, but statistics don't lie. Go watch real street fights and see how many eye gouges or groin shots are used. 1 out of 5 at most. And that one guy probably really knows what he's doing or he's really damn calm.
All I'm saying is, trained people over blow the whole dirty tactics thing but you still don't see the extremes during a fight.

 

[SummerStriker]

True, dirty fighting is over blown but only to martial artists. Of all the fights you see (real life or video) you pretty much only see guys trying to sucker punch each other in the face. These are untrained people. You rarely or never see guys going finger breaks eye gouge or groin shots. All they care about is blasting the head.

If you're trained, you're trained to do what you do. That's a pretty unpopular point around sherdog but I agree with it. If you do MMA, you're not looking for the occasional nut shot, you look for take down or control or to knock out. If you're untrained you'd have so much adrenaline running through you, you won't know what to do.

I personally have only been in two fights and both were broken up. When I was untrained, some guy who knew wushu tried to kick me in the head and I retaliated by grabbing his leg and punched him in the stomach and then we both rolled to the ground before being separated. I wasn't thinking about eye gouging or groin shots and neither was he. Another one I had a punch to my face after talking shit (my wrong doing) and I staggered then I took him down after a couple of BJJ classes. We were separated before any more punches were thrown. Once again I was going to punch him in the head and he already punched me in the head. When adrenaline rolls, all you care about is punching that guy in the head. But then again, it may only be me. I'm sure more trained people will be able to see it coming and attack calmly.

I'm not saying NO one ever thinks about it, but statistics don't lie. Go watch real street fights and see how many eye gouges or groin shots are used. 1 out of 5 at most. And that one guy probably really knows what he's doing or he's really damn calm.
All I'm saying is, trained people over blow the whole dirty tactics thing but you still don't see the extremes during a fight.

Nothing trains you for the nut shot more than MMA. A professional fight I personally know and can quote, "I always look for the kick to the nuts first round. As long as it looks like an inside leg kick I get away with it and everyone I fight is too stupid to take their five minutes. I don't mind one warning."

If I ever fight an MMA fighter I'm guarding my junk 100%.

 

[kpt018]

True, dirty fighting is over blown but only to martial artists. Of all the fights you see (real life or video) you pretty much only see guys trying to sucker punch each other in the face. These are untrained people. You rarely or never see guys going finger breaks eye gouge or groin shots. All they care about is blasting the head.

If you're trained, you're trained to do what you do. That's a pretty unpopular point around sherdog but I agree with it. If you do MMA, you're not looking for the occasional nut shot, you look for take down or control or to knock out. If you're untrained you'd have so much adrenaline running through you, you won't know what to do.

I personally have only been in two fights and both were broken up. When I was untrained, some guy who knew wushu tried to kick me in the head and I retaliated by grabbing his leg and punched him in the stomach and then we both rolled to the ground before being separated. I wasn't thinking about eye gouging or groin shots and neither was he. Another one I had a punch to my face after talking shit (my wrong doing) and I staggered then I took him down after a couple of BJJ classes. We were separated before any more punches were thrown. Once again I was going to punch him in the head and he already punched me in the head. When adrenaline rolls, all you care about is punching that guy in the head. But then again, it may only be me. I'm sure more trained people will be able to see it coming and attack calmly.

I'm not saying NO one ever thinks about it, but statistics don't lie. Go watch real street fights and see how many eye gouges or groin shots are used. 1 out of 5 at most. And that one guy probably really knows what he's doing or he's really damn calm.
All I'm saying is, trained people over blow the whole dirty tactics thing but you still don't see the extremes during a fight.

Fist off, I don't think you should be eye gouging guys if we are talking about your typical dumb ass testosterone monkey dance. You're going to spend a lot of time in jail if you maim some dude because he pushed you. There are obviously situations where it's warranted (like the guy is choking you or has a weapon or something).

Second, I have experienced first hand and witnessed multiple times that a nut shot does not always end a fight. No shit, I seen a guy get kicked in the nuts full blast and not even realize it until the fight was over. He then puked and curled up in pain. Moral of the story is adrenaline does crazy stuff to numb pain. I've been blasted myself and as much as it sucks, it wasn't a fight ender. In fact, it made me want to hurt the guy more.

Come to think of it, I've seen people take shots playing sports and not go down right away.

Also, you likely would run into someone who is high. There's a good case to be made that pain compliance techniques, groin shots, etc. will not work at all.

And I'm not arguing that KM is a waste of time, my old school trained some good stuff that I think is useful. I just don't think it's tough for a Thai boxer or any other martial artist/boxer/whatever to adjust to a self defense situation. All they have to do is think about what they want to do if some shit goes down.

And as you eluded to, controlling your adrenaline is a huge part of it.

 

[JohnSouth]

It always goes back to Israelis soldiers.

Like they ever fight people with these techniques or it ever mattered if they did and the poor nerf herders they fight with guns are in the stone ages. Why in the hell would they ever have to punch/disarm them? Even if one guy died to a knife they're not losing.

The Israelis could have nothing but mcdojo hapkido and still do fine.

Cops have radio and a badge and a gun, I'd worry more about that.

Meanwhile you are sitting there with your Krav Maga with no badge, no gun and no radio.

Good luck soldier.

 

[JohnSouth]

Fist off, I don't think you should be eye gouging guys if we are talking about your typical dumb ass testosterone monkey dance. You're going to spend a lot of time in jail if you maim some dude because he pushed you. There are obviously situations where it's warranted (like the guy is choking you or has a weapon or something).

Yes, you need a less destructive way to deal with things.

Without real fighting skills you have to surprise the other guy with a barrage of strikes until he can't get up.

Then there is the likelihood of losing a fight to some punk with only a few months of MMA training.

Ouch.

 

[kpt018]

Yes, you need a less destructive way to deal with things.

Without real fighting skills you have to surprise the other guy with a barrage of strikes until he can't get up.

Then there is the likelihood of losing a fight to some punk with only a few months of MMA training.

Ouch.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think KM is a total waste. It's good for specific scenarios and certain types of training, IMO.

But if you want to fight with your hands, learn boxing. If you want to add elbows, knees and kicks, learn Muay Thai. If you want to grapple, learn wrestling and/or BJJ.

If you want to learn about real world violence, read about it and apply your martial arts training accordingly.

I know KM attempts to be a jack of all trades but they literally do each aspect of fighting worse then the respective arts.

 

[HighestHand]

No offense summer, but your friend is kind of a douche. IMO he is not a sportsman and it's things like that that kind if give MMA a bad name when people catch on to him

You both do make some good points but my original point was that KM is a good thing to know if you already take MT, JJ or MMA. I'm sorry if I couldn't make it more clear.

Like you said, some times nut shots aren't fight Enders but KM is a bunch of combos and stuff and it really goes like this:
Nut shot>punch>elbow knee>more nut shots>more things.

And even then KM doesn't just teach any nut shot. They blow it up... MT clinch nut shot with knee or full on soccer kick with shin to nuts. Ouch!! That's a pretty fast way to end a fight.

And of course I'm not saying to do this to everyone that pushes you. Of course try to be a better man and walk away but if things get out of hand, it really comes in handy.

These things are good to know. But honestly, KM only really works if you take anything like MMA or MT. If you're only taking KM once a week for hobbies then chances are you will get annihilated.