Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

Ok, last time then I'm done.
I cant handle this kid, got to be WizCoolC's new Krav Maga account?

Anyway. I spar two or three times a week, I rarely wear a cup and never where goggles. I've probably been kicked in the balls 50 to 100 times, I can name on one hand the amount of times I've had to stop sparring. The chances of landing a kick to the exact spot, with the correct amount of force is about the same as landing a one shot head kick. More importantly the chances of you being able to land a kick with your dogshit KM training, anywhere on me that I cant check or avoid is next to fuck all.

An eye poke is the same. What do you think happens when you get punched in the eye with no headgear? Your eyelid turns in to a nice fluffy pillow and you don't feel anything? What if you have your eye open when the punch lands? It hurts and it's irritating, but I don't lose sight in my other eye too and go into full body spasms. If I get poked in the eye I'll stop because I can, not because I'm suddenly paraplegic. What I can do if I feel you start to gouge my eye is double leg you into oblivion, take your back, then choke you out.

This is where our story would end, your extremely narrow grasp of the ground game from KM would have you sleeping , eyes open, in a pool of your own piss, and on my little way I'd go.
HOWEVER, you've just tried to blind me, bit me, kicked me in the balls, or whatever school yard shit you learn with the housewives in your strip mall. So instead of going on my way, I'm going to be very angry and break your face.

Do you understand now?
This is pig wrestling, I'm out.
 
You know this thread went to shit when the mention of fucking AIKIDO is involved. It is an art, yes. But it is fucking snake oil when it come to actual self defense. Not this thread is any less shit before, but there you go.
 
Ok, last time then I'm done.
I cant handle this kid, got to be WizCoolC's new Krav Maga account?

Anyway. I spar two or three times a week, I rarely wear a cup and never where goggles. I've probably been kicked in the balls 50 to 100 times, I can name on one hand the amount of times I've had to stop sparring. The chances of landing a kick to the exact spot, with the correct amount of force is about the same as landing a one shot head kick. More importantly the chances of you being able to land a kick with your dogshit KM training, anywhere on me that I cant check or avoid is next to fuck all.

An eye poke is the same. What do you think happens when you get punched in the eye with no headgear? Your eyelid turns in to a nice fluffy pillow and you don't feel anything? What if you have your eye open when the punch lands? It hurts and it's irritating, but I don't lose sight in my other eye too and go into full body spasms. If I get poked in the eye I'll stop because I can, not because I'm suddenly paraplegic. What I can do if I feel you start to gouge my eye is double leg you into oblivion, take your back, then choke you out.

This is where our story would end, your extremely narrow grasp of the ground game from KM would have you sleeping , eyes open, in a pool of your own piss, and on my little way I'd go.
HOWEVER, you've just tried to blind me, bit me, kicked me in the balls, or whatever school yard shit you learn with the housewives in your strip mall. So instead of going on my way, I'm going to be very angry and break your face.

Do you understand now?
This is pig wrestling, I'm out.

Lol multiple times I have stated that KM is good as a supplement when you have REAL MMA training. Do you read or do you just like to assume what other people say when you don't agree with them?

And once again: STOP assuming other people will be the same way as you. You have training. We are talking about the untrained dude. He will stop at the very first spec of dust that touches his eyes. And when something touches your eyes, yes you will stop doing your shit for a split second maybe more and if you argue against it you're lying.

Also, if you are trained, it is not that hard to land a shot you want against an untrained dude. You ever spar with a newbie?

And you're still going on about "if you try to eye gouge me, i'll break your face." That is just ignorant. Even if you're trained and I eye gouge you, how are you so sure that you'll break MY face and not the other way around if I have training too? We've been through this like three times and you still haven't given me an answer besides "KM training is shit."

PS: In an eye gouge, I'm not going to be an eye surgeon and spend 3 hours meticulously dissecting your eye. I'm going to do a quick jab with my nails to your eyes. You can't "feel me eye gouging" because it'd be pretty much the same as a jab.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your best counter argument is that "dirty tactics give you no advantage at all and just makes people angry" and agree to disagree.
 
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Well, there is also the legit argument (to supplement your two above) that 'dirty tactics' are applied with less skill due to less drilling in less realistic environments.

Also, if you have the ability to land, at will, a technique of your choosing against an untrained opponent who won't be able to respond adequately to defend themselves, you should make it a fight ending attack (preferably one that causes the least long term damage and puts you in the best position in possible legal situations that may arise).

Lastly, if you're a trained combatant/MMA guy, you are already good at striking and grappling, and you want to expand your skills at self defence, I would have to think choosing a military/police hand-to-hand system, which is entirely limited in scope and has a significantly different purpose to a system with more potential for long term advancement (as was noted in earlier posts) would be, if anything, a fun diversion. If anything, a full weapons system or more specificity in a particular skill (like taking legit boxing or Jiu-Jitsu seperately) would probably prove to be of far greater use.
 
Hard to beat the Thai clinch, but Krav's has it's uses, especially when combined with Aikido for redirection & human shields for multiple opponent setups.

Every time I've seen some dude take on multiples on you tube it was with good old american boxing.

Never saw anyone do it with Aikido except in movies...or Krav Maga for that matter.
 
Krav Maga is quick and dirty martial arts for people who don't really like Martial Arts and don't need to do it that well.

Sort of like WWII combatives, teach some basic stuff, send him out there, if he kills the enemy good, if he doesn't....we'll make more.
 
Good dirty fighting is more tactical, catching the guy off guard, getting outside of the lead foot, things like that.

I've tried punching people in the throat several times in fights...doesn't work too well. People naturally protect their throat.

Groin - same issue. I've also been on the receiving end of that and it didn't stop me at all.

Breaking someone's knee with a low kick - theoretically possible but probably not going to happen.

Eye poke? If you can poke his eye you can knock him out.

Just learn to fight for pete's sake. In the time you are messing with this stuff you could hit the weight room and really learn to fight.
 
Well, there is also the legit argument (to supplement your two above) that 'dirty tactics' are applied with less skill due to less drilling in less realistic environments.

Also, if you have the ability to land, at will, a technique of your choosing against an untrained opponent who won't be able to respond adequately to defend themselves, you should make it a fight ending attack (preferably one that causes the least long term damage and puts you in the best position in possible legal situations that may arise).

Lastly, if you're a trained combatant/MMA guy, you are already good at striking and grappling, and you want to expand your skills at self defence, I would have to think choosing a military/police hand-to-hand system, which is entirely limited in scope and has a significantly different purpose to a system with more potential for long term advancement (as was noted in earlier posts) would be, if anything, a fun diversion. If anything, a full weapons system or more specificity in a particular skill (like taking legit boxing or Jiu-Jitsu seperately) would probably prove to be of far greater use.

Yeah but sometimes you are able to train the techniques like eye gouging and groin shots. I'm not speaking specifically for Krav Maga but I found that to be the most appropriate to refer to.
If you've ever watched Human Weapon: Krav Maga, then you'd see that they do simulations that are pretty real. They wear a bunch of goggles and cups and protective stuff and they replay a street altercation scenario.


With that being said, these dirty tactics do come with a potential to do damage if 1-2's don't work and what not ie the guy being able to take a few punches no problem. So why try out the 1-2 if it has a chance of not working? As summer said, people try out dirty tactics when it's too late, so why not start with them instead?

I also remember a couple of seminars broadcasted on youtube that had an interesting idea. They had trained martial artists attend this thing and had a guy dressed up in full protective gear and he would try to intimidate you and bully you while you try to push him back. He took everything easily as he was in protective gear, but in that situation IF a guy you are fighting is able to take punishment like that, then chances are you are going to lose no matter how good you are unless you use something he isn't very familiar with: Probably bjj, and probably dirty tactics.

With that being said, I do agree with you that this system is probably not the best, but in my opinion is definitely not a waste if you are able to learn it to a very good (life like) degree.
 
Good dirty fighting is more tactical, catching the guy off guard, getting outside of the lead foot, things like that.

I've tried punching people in the throat several times in fights...doesn't work too well. People naturally protect their throat.

Groin - same issue. I've also been on the receiving end of that and it didn't stop me at all.

Breaking someone's knee with a low kick - theoretically possible but probably not going to happen.

Eye poke? If you can poke his eye you can knock him out.

Just learn to fight for pete's sake. In the time you are messing with this stuff you could hit the weight room and really learn to fight.

Agreed with first statement, but not much of every thing else.

1 - throat, I've been pressed with the throat with minimal pressure and it knocks the wind out of me. If this happens to me then it can happen to a lot of other people. Omoplatas are used this way too. a quick punch landing on the throat correctly may collapse his windpipe which is made up of hyaline cartilage. If it doesn't work, try something else.

2 - Groin, same as above. In my opinion the groin is an even easier target.

3 - You're right with this one. Highly unlikely.

4 - Like I said, if you fight a real tough guy who eats punches like they're cupcakes, then knocking him out isn't going to be an option. Flicker at his eyes to get him to blink and then GTFO. That'll probably save your life if you're up against that dude.
 
Agreed with first statement, but not much of every thing else.

1 - throat, I've been pressed with the throat with minimal pressure and it knocks the wind out of me. If this happens to me then it can happen to a lot of other people. Omoplatas are used this way too. a quick punch landing on the throat correctly may collapse his windpipe which is made up of hyaline cartilage. If it doesn't work, try something else.

2 - Groin, same as above. In my opinion the groin is an even easier target.

3 - You're right with this one. Highly unlikely.

4 - Like I said, if you fight a real tough guy who eats punches like they're cupcakes, then knocking him out isn't going to be an option. Flicker at his eyes to get him to blink and then GTFO. That'll probably save your life if you're up against that dude.

Like I said I've been punched in the groin in fights and it made me smile, mostly because the angle was wrong. I kicked a guy in the balls and it did nothing, the fight continued because the angle was wrong. Easy to defend, just lift the leg. Now what?

Never seen a groin kick end a fight, I'm sure it has but none of the many I've been in.

Yep, anything on the throat works real good, problem is people tuck the chin and you break your fingers.

If you could do that you could knock him out if you weren't a weak nerd (not you personally).

There is no need to study girl fighting if you can learn man fighting.

Just get strong, if you are a solid 200lb man you can knock out any other man. I've knocked a few big guys out with one punch. OTOH I've landed 0 eye jabs and 0 throat jabs.
 
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Every time I've seen some dude take on multiples on you tube it was with good old american boxing.

Never saw anyone do it with Aikido except in movies...or Krav Maga for that matter.

I'm with you, 100%. Hiding behind the jab while walking backwards to your car is by far an away the bread and butter self defense.
 
The other arguably most useful tool in self defence is escaping the clinch/breaking grips (as well as the more extreme version of this, which is recovering back to your feet or getting out of a dangerous ground position).

These skills are rarely if ever taught by 'self defence' schools, but a great deal of time is spent on them in 'sport' arts like BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even boxing.
 
My favorite bullshit statistic is the Gracie's ever-popular claim that "99% of fights end up on the ground." Not only is that completely unverifiable, but a quick perusal of street fights on Youtube reveals that, when fights do go to the ground, it's almost always because one or both of the fighters couldn't control their own swings and slipped or was knocked down by a punch. It seems obvious to me that a little boxing training is a great preventative solution.
 
Let's be honest, Krav Maga is essentially crappy MMA. The only parts of it that are worth a shit are the techniques not drilled in other arts, like gun/knife defense, etc.. And most guys who train in the more practical arts don't think it's worth their time.

And let's stop with the groin/eye poke stuff, it's not hard to just do those if you want to. Those aren't super technical, impossible to do on the fly techniques.

Edit: I should also add that if a martial artist wants a little real world self defense, they can continue they're regular training and just take a seminar or whatever.
 
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Sherdog is probably the only place on earth where I have ever heard anyone attempt to argue that Krav Maga, at least the way it was originally designed and taught, teaches mostly useless techniques. I am not even kidding, that is an "only on Sherdog" kind of thing.

He said "The way I was taught" and all the offense against self defense systems is because many of the instructors of those systems are kind of arrogant and feel superior to fighters...which is a lie.
 
He said "The way I was taught" and all the offense against self defense systems is because many of the instructors of those systems are kind of arrogant and feel superior to fighters...which is a lie.

Yeah exactly. How many Krav Maga instructors are going to be able to successfully survive a mugging from Cain Velasquez or even an encounter with 2 members of Team Alpha male on a night out?
 
My favorite bullshit statistic is the Gracie's ever-popular claim that "99% of fights end up on the ground."

Maybe they think that because their fights always end up there. I suppose if I was a ground specialist and had really poor stand up like most of the Gracies I'd take it to the ground if I could.
 
The other arguably most useful tool in self defence is escaping the clinch/breaking grips (as well as the more extreme version of this, which is recovering back to your feet or getting out of a dangerous ground position).

These skills are rarely if ever taught by 'self defence' schools, but a great deal of time is spent on them in 'sport' arts like BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even boxing.

The problem always with self defense instruction is that for the training to work, the training has to be designed to solve a problem and if you don't know what the problem is, it is hard to prepare for it. Sportsmen are very afraid of losing a fight, so there are sport moves for every possible situation you can be in while losing a fight.

Self defense is usually very defeatist. They act like if you are losing a fight already, that you are just fucked, so it all revolves around winning instantly, usually by savagely attacking a supposed one hit quitter and driving him off.
 
1 - throat, I've been pressed with the throat with minimal pressure and it knocks the wind out of me. If this happens to me then it can happen to a lot of other people. Omoplatas are used this way
Ehhhhh?
You have no idea what an omoplata is do you?
 
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