Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

[Wrestlerrr]

Most Krav Maga instructors seem to teach a "clinch" or grab for knee strikes that is different from the Muay Thai double neck tie clinch.

Here are two examples:
http://cdn.sheknows.com/articles/2012/08/krav-maga-knee-strike.jpg
http://www.ehow.com/video_2355328_krav-maga-knee-strikes.html

I suppose they do this because do not want to get entangled with their opponent in any way.

I find the Muay Thai clinch very effective if done properly and I have seen it in many full contact Muay Thai or MMA fights. However, I have never seen the above mentioned Krav Maga version in such fights. To me, it seems to provide much less control over your opponent than the Muay Thai clinch.

What do you think of the Krav Maga grab for knee strikes? Is it really effective?

 

[lapollarecords]

Krav Maga(at least the version taught around here) teaches useless techniques for the most part. I did it for 2 years and it was 2 hour classes with 5-10 minutes sparring. the rest was techniques that would not work in a real situation

 

[emax]

Krav Maga(at least the version taught around here) teaches useless techniques for the most part. I did it for 2 years and it was 2 hour classes with 5-10 minutes sparring. the rest was techniques that would not work in a real situation

Sherdog is probably the only place on earth where I have ever heard anyone attempt to argue that Krav Maga, at least the way it was originally designed and taught, teaches mostly useless techniques. I am not even kidding, that is an "only on Sherdog" kind of thing.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Sherdog is probably the only place on earth where I have ever heard anyone attempt to argue that Krav Maga, at least the way it was originally designed and taught, teaches mostly useless techniques. I am not even kidding, that is an "only on Sherdog" kind of thing.

Which just goes to show that as dumb as sherdog is, it's way smarter than most of the internet when it comes to martial arts.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Yes and no, the position is legit, but the form is off.
The left arm should should be hooked over and cupping the tricep, with your elbow inside his forearm to stop him swimming under. The right forearm pushing across his face and cupping the back of his head.
Pushing his head out and down breaks his posture, then the grips give you control points.
Spin him left, pull down and towards you on his tricep while pushing up and away with your elbow across his face.
Spin right: use your left elbow to lift his arm while pulling down and towards you on his head.
It's pretty much the Overeem Uberknee.

 

[emax]

Which just goes to show that as dumb as sherdog is, it's way smarter than most of the internet when it comes to martial arts.

Krav Maga as it is taught in Israel is mostly useless techniques? Are you or anyone else seriously gonna argue that? I mean, ok, I can understand that about a commercialized American version, which probably should not even have the Krav Maga label but not for Krav maga as it is properly taught. The idea that Krav maga teaches mostly useless techniques is too moronic to be taken seriously for a millisecond. You do understand that, don't you?

 

[Wrestlerrr]

Yes and no, the position is legit, but the form is off.
The left arm should should be hooked over and cupping the tricep, with your elbow inside his forearm to stop him swimming under. The right forearm pushing across his face and cupping the back of his head.
Pushing his head out and down breaks his posture, then the grips give you control points.
Spin him left, pull down and towards you on his tricep while pushing up and away with your elbow across his face.
Spin right: use your left elbow to lift his arm while pulling down and towards you on his head.
It's pretty much the Overeem Uberknee.

Do you know one or more video clips that show the right form?

 

[Wrestlerrr]

Also, what would be an effective entry to that type of grab? Or a situation in a fight that would lend itself to it?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

I'm on my phone, but if you look up some Overeem fights on youtube you'll see him catch that grip.
Overeem switches to that grip up against the fence. It means you can push them up against the fence, make room for knees, but your not square on for the double leg.
If somebody has a single with their head on inside, you can break their grip, keep their head stuffed and go from there.
You can also use it inside a hook. Step inside a hook with a high shield block, latch over the arm, across the face, and your in

 

[Discipulus]

One of the most reliable entries I learned to that position (which I just call a "side clinch") was as a counter to the jab. You parry the opponent's jab the outside. I'm talking an old school parry, where you don't just knock their hand down but catch their left hand with your right hand and scoop it out to your right in a sort of swimming motion. At the same moment, step forward with your right foot and jam your left hand across their face, grabbing the side of their neck. Boom. Instant side clinch, with a left knee cocked and loaded.

 

[frango]

I practice krav maga at bukan krav maga school.Maybe the first school ever created.

They teach the original art invented by Imi Liechtenfeld and our Grand Master Yaron Lichtenstein is nineth dan, most graduated master world wide.

However i have practiced in another institution, the South American Federation of Krav Maga. You can google it by searching "kobi Liechtenstein" or FSAKM. Its pretty legit too.

In the FSAKM ive learned a move where you block a punch with the left arm, punch with the right hand and then proceed to grab the opponent in a similar clinch to knee him...in the BALLS.



So,really, just to give you a clue about it: *no rules*. So, the knee in the genital area is what makes it really efective for self defense purposes.

If you want to compare it to muay thay of MMA moves, just dont do it. Its not a sport, its self defense.

Again, knee against THE BALLS.

And yes, krav maga works.

And its better for self defense rather than MMA.

Just because...NO RULES, only dirty fighting.

Apply "no rules" to any sparring session of MMA or MT you experience and the fight will be over sooner than you think.

dot

 

[Discipulus]

I practice krav maga at bukan krav maga school.Maybe the first school ever created.

They teach the original art invented by Imi Liechtenfeld and our Grand Master Yaron Lichtenstein is nineth dan, most graduated master world wide.

However i have practiced in another institution, the South American Federation of Krav Maga. You can google it by searching "kobi Liechtenstein" or FSAKM. Its pretty legit too.

In the FSAKM ive learned a move where you block a punch with the left arm, punch with the right hand and then proceed to grab the opponent in a similar clinch to knee him...in the BALLS.



So,really, just to give you a clue about it: *no rules*. So, the knee in the genital area is what makes it really efective for self defense purposes.

If you want to compare it to muay thay of MMA moves, just dont do it. Its not a sport, its self defense.

Again, knee against THE BALLS.

And yes, krav maga works.

And its better for self defense rather than MMA.

Just because...NO RULES, only dirty fighting.

Apply "no rules" to any sparring session of MMA or MT you experience and the fight will be over sooner than you think.

dot

Literally anybody but a parapalegic can knee someone in the balls. I daresay a Muay Thai fighter is better equipped to knee somebody in the balls than someone with no training other than Krav Maga. I'll never understand why so many people think that train combat sports athletes would be restricted by the rules of their sport in a street encounter.

Edit: I'm also willing to bet that I could keep someone from attacking my pills with nothing more than my jab.

 

[aries]

I supposed they are concerned with tying up the opponents arm as he attempts to grab or strike with it and being out of reach of the other. Plus being off to the side of a potentially stronger taller opponent rather than being head on. It makes it easier to disengage as well.

Like Nakmuay says the form isn't great. Keeping the inside position is key. Without gloves I prefer bicep control. You use the web of your thumb to jam into the crook of the elbow so you have your thumb inside and your fingers on the outside. It allows you to 'stick' to their arm so they'll have difficulty beating your grip along as you maintain pressure.

The other option that you will see in Muay Thai and in my opinion is far more powerful is to get an underhook. That allows you to apply heavy pressure to that shoulder which helps break their posture and push their head away with the other. And then to secure it you can figure four the underhook hand on your head control arm while forcing their head down.

 

[Paradigm]

Krav Maga as it is taught in Israel is mostly useless techniques? Are you or anyone else seriously gonna argue that? I mean, ok, I can understand that about a commercialized American version, which probably should not even have the Krav Maga label but not for Krav maga as it is properly taught. The idea that Krav maga teaches mostly useless techniques is too moronic to be taken seriously for a millisecond. You do understand that, don't you?

you ever stop to think that not everyone taking Krav Maga is getting taught like the Israelis?

to top it all off, the guy you originally quoted even specified the Krav being taught in his area.

I know there are plenty of shitty Muay Thai schools around. you think what they're practicing is gonna stand up to the average practitioner at a camp in Thailand?

think before you post.

Literally anybody but a parapalegic can knee someone in the balls. I daresay a Muay Thai fighter is better equipped to knee somebody in the balls than someone with no training other than Krav Maga. I'll never understand why so many people think that train combat sports athletes would be restricted by the rules of their sport in a street encounter.

Edit: I'm also willing to bet that I could keep someone from attacking my pills with nothing more than my jab.

I always say there's no one more qualified than a nakmuay to throw a knee to the balls.

hell, most of my inside low kicks end up as cup checks anyways...

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Literally anybody but a parapalegic can knee someone in the balls. I daresay a Muay Thai fighter is better equipped to knee somebody in the balls than someone with no training other than Krav Maga. I'll never understand why so many people think that train combat sports athletes would be restricted by the rules of their sport in a street encounter.

Edit: I'm also willing to bet that I could keep someone from attacking my pills with nothing more than my jab.

Hold on!!
You mean the thousands of knees and kicks that I'll thrown at the bag have been worthless? I was planning on using those kick and knees to land on the body and head, I'm going to have to learn all over again if I'm going to kick them in the nuts!

Can somebody post the correct form for a headbutt too please. I understand that I lower my head then smash my forehead into their face, but I'd like an actual technical breakdown. I keep getting told how it's so important in self defence so I'd like to learn the intricacies. Also how do I drill, do I headbutt a bag repeatedly or should I get somebody to hold pads? 1-2-right elbow headbutt?
Perhaps you can do a breakdown on BE Disc?

 

[Discipulus]

I supposed they are concerned with tying up the opponents arm as he attempts to grab or strike with it and being out of reach of the other. Plus being off to the side of a potentially stronger taller opponent rather than being head on. It makes it easier to disengage as well.

Like Nakmuay says the form isn't great. Keeping the inside position is key. Without gloves I prefer bicep control. You use the web of your thumb to jam into the crook of the elbow so you have your thumb inside and your fingers on the outside. It allows you to 'stick' to their arm so they'll have difficulty beating your grip along as you maintain pressure.

The other option that you will see in Muay Thai and in my opinion is far more powerful is to get an underhook. That allows you to apply heavy pressure to that shoulder which helps break their posture and push their head away with the other. And then to secure it you can figure four the underhook hand on your head control arm while forcing their head down.

+1 for the underhook. The technique I described is best done by going for that underhook after you parry the jab. Swim the arm under theirs and then, if possible, grip the wrist of the hand on their neck. That's a very powerful position for breaking an opponent's posture. You can switch to a standing arm bar really easily, too, or even a hammer lock, which should both be great for self defense.

Another, much simpler way to enter that control position is to just step into a jab, making sure to slip at the same time. Come in low, shoot the jab past their head, and turn it into a grip. Andre Ward does this all the damn time.

Hold on!!
You mean the thousands of knees and kicks that I'll thrown at the bag have been worthless? I was planning on using those kick and knees to land on the body and head, I'm going to have to learn all over again if I'm going to kick them in the nuts!

Can somebody post the correct form for a headbutt too please. I understand that I lower my head then smash my forehead into their face, but I'd like an actual technical breakdown. I keep getting told how it's so important in self defence so I'd like to learn the intricacies. Also how do I drill, do I headbutt a bag repeatedly or should I get somebody to hold pads? 1-2-right elbow headbutt?
Perhaps you can do a breakdown on BE Disc?

This is the most scathing sarcasm I've ever read from you, and that's saying something. :icon_lol:

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Like Nakmuay says the form isn't great. Keeping the inside position is key. Without gloves I prefer bicep control. You use the web of your thumb to jam into the crook of the elbow so you have your thumb inside and your fingers on the outside. It allows you to 'stick' to their arm so they'll have difficulty beating your grip along as you maintain pressure.

The other option that you will see in Muay Thai and in my opinion is far more powerful is to get an underhook. That allows you to apply heavy pressure to that shoulder which helps break their posture and push their head away with the other. And then to secure it you can figure four the underhook hand on your head control arm while forcing their head down.

Personally I'd never advise somebody to use their thumb to grip during grappling, its general back practice. What I mean by hook the tricep is have your hand like a mantis. As a wrestler I imagen TS knows what I mean.

I understand what you mean about the underhook. Where you almost step behind them with a straight armlock? it's hard to describe.

 

[frango]

Literally anybody but a parapalegic can knee someone in the balls. I daresay a Muay Thai fighter is better equipped to knee somebody in the balls than someone with no training other than Krav Maga. I'll never understand why so many people think that train combat sports athletes would be restricted by the rules of their sport in a street encounter.

Edit: I'm also willing to bet that I could keep someone from attacking my pills with nothing more than my jab.

yeah, very uncoomon argument in sherdog against krav maga.

Its like saying "i dont need to practice my left hook since i know how to do it with my right hand". *It doesnt make any sense.*

The thing is you practice attacking the balls the whole class and we train coordination to do that.

Its easier to do it if you done it before. I think you might agree on that point.

And we train specific counter attacks to specifics situations.

Its just different from training a combat sport like MT or MMA.

You train to escape from a dangerous situation. Thats not what you learn on MT or MMA class.

Ive seen guys sparring MMA and MT in my gym and i would never want to be in a fight with those guys, believe me, because they are really strong and tough. Like, for real.

But ive seen girls boxing and MTing and its really not so scary.But it can be harmfull if she aims for the BALLS.

So its a diferent goal, training MMA, MT and krav maga.
Simple as that.

You dont need good cardio neither you need to be strong.
And you will always find someone who is stronger than you.
Or someone with a gun or knife.
Then you might give krav maga some credit...:icon_idea

 

[Harukaze]

Yes and no, the position is legit, but the form is off.
The left arm should should be hooked over and cupping the tricep, with your elbow inside his forearm to stop him swimming under. The right forearm pushing across his face and cupping the back of his head.
Pushing his head out and down breaks his posture, then the grips give you control points.
Spin him left, pull down and towards you on his tricep while pushing up and away with your elbow across his face.
Spin right: use your left elbow to lift his arm while pulling down and towards you on his head.
It's pretty much the Overeem Uberknee.

I supposed they are concerned with tying up the opponents arm as he attempts to grab or strike with it and being out of reach of the other. Plus being off to the side of a potentially stronger taller opponent rather than being head on. It makes it easier to disengage as well.

Like Nakmuay says the form isn't great. Keeping the inside position is key. Without gloves I prefer bicep control. You use the web of your thumb to jam into the crook of the elbow so you have your thumb inside and your fingers on the outside. It allows you to 'stick' to their arm so they'll have difficulty beating your grip along as you maintain pressure.

The other option that you will see in Muay Thai and in my opinion is far more powerful is to get an underhook. That allows you to apply heavy pressure to that shoulder which helps break their posture and push their head away with the other. And then to secure it you can figure four the underhook hand on your head control arm while forcing their head down.

Came in to post, these fine gentlemen beat me to it, so off I go to another thread now. :icon_chee

 

[Discipulus]

yeah, very uncoomon argument in sherdog against krav maga.

Its like saying "i dont need to practice my left hook since i know how to do it with my right hand". *It doesnt make any sense.*

The thing is you practice attacking the balls the whole class and we train coordination to do that.

Its easier to do it if you done it before. I think you might agree on that point.

And we train specific counter attacks to specifics situations.

Its just different from training a combat sport like MT or MMA.

You train to escape from a dangerous situation. Thats not what you learn on MT or MMA class.

Ive seen guys sparring MMA and MT in my gym and i would never want to be in a fight with those guys, believe me, because they are really strong and tough. Like, for real.

But ive seen girls boxing and MTing and its really not so scary.But it can be harmfull if she aims for the BALLS.

So its a diferent goal, training MMA, MT and krav maga.
Simple as that.

You dont need good cardio neither you need to be strong.
And you will always find someone who is stronger than you.
Or someone with a gun or knife.
Then you might give krav maga some credit...:icon_idea

Why not just carry a gun yourself if you're that worried about self defense?

Honestly, I can see the value in training self defense-specific techniques, but the reality is that the full-speed training of a combat athlete, even restricted by rules, makes them far more capable of fighting dirty in a street encounter than someone who endlessly drills (but never really applies) those dirty tactics in a controlled environment.

That is, unless you spar with groin shots, bites, eye pokes, headbutts, and the rest. Do you? I know some Kudo guys do (the groin shots and headbutts, at least).