Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

[emax]

Hold on!!
You mean the thousands of knees and kicks that I'll thrown at the bag have been worthless? I was planning on using those kick and knees to land on the body and head, I'm going to have to learn all over again if I'm going to kick them in the nuts!

Can somebody post the correct form for a headbutt too please. I understand that I lower my head then smash my forehead into their face, but I'd like an actual technical breakdown. I keep getting told how it's so important in self defence so I'd like to learn the intricacies. Also how do I drill, do I headbutt a bag repeatedly or should I get somebody to hold pads? 1-2-right elbow headbutt?
Perhaps you can do a breakdown on BE Disc?

That is exactly what I was thinking. Anybody can also kick a guy in the shins or elbow someone int he ribs or face or get in a clinch type situation in a bar brawl. Taking that logic to its fullest extent means there is zero need to learn Muay Thai either. In fact, it means there is zero need to learn boxing of any kind.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

yeah, very uncoomon argument in sherdog against krav maga.

Its like saying "i dont need to practice my left hook since i know how to do it with my right hand". *It doesnt make any sense.*

The thing is you practice attacking the balls the whole class and we train coordination to do that.

Its easier to do it if you done it before. I think you might agree on that point.

And we train specific counter attacks to specifics situations.

Its just different from training a combat sport like MT or MMA.

You train to escape from a dangerous situation. Thats not what you learn on MT or MMA class.

Ive seen guys sparring MMA and MT in my gym and i would never want to be in a fight with those guys, believe me, because they are really strong and tough. Like, for real.

But ive seen girls boxing and MTing and its really not so scary.But it can be harmfull if she aims for the BALLS.

So its a diferent goal, training MMA, MT and krav maga.
Simple as that.

You dont need good cardio neither you need to be strong.
And you will always find someone who is stronger than you.
Or someone with a gun or knife.
Then you might give krav maga some credit...:icon_idea

Thanks for the new Sig

 

[frango]

Why not just carry a gun yourself if you're that worried about self defense?

Honestly, I can see the value in training self defense-specific techniques, but the reality is that the full-speed training of a combat athlete, even restricted by rules, makes them far more capable of fighting dirty in a street encounter than someone who endlessly drills (but never really applies) those dirty tactics in a controlled environment.

That is, unless you spar with groin shots, bites, eye pokes, headbutts, and the rest. Do you? I know some Kudo guys do (the groin shots and headbutts, at least).

You get confident as you practice krav maga so in a complicated situation you have a simple answer to give. Choose beeing robbed or running away, or avoiding a fight. Or choose to do the disarm techinque you mastered and practiced a thousand times.

Or try a fatal muay thay kick to the head if you have the strenght, the skill, the courage and is wearing adequate flexible clothes. If you miss it...surprise, you die too.

what about that?

 

[Discipulus]

You get confident as you practice krav maga so in a complicated situation you have a simple answer to give. Choose beeing robbed or running away, or avoiding a fight. Or choose to do the disarm techinque you mastered and practiced a thousand times.

Or try a fatal muay thay kick to the head if you have the strenght, the skill, the courage and is wearing adequate flexible clothes. If you miss it...surprise, you die too.

what about that?

Why would any Thai fighter throw a head kick in that kind of encounter? There are tons of other, more reliable attacks that would work perfectly, and the Thai fighter has a much higher chance of making them work than a Krav Maga practitioner who has likely never sparred in a truly high stress setting.

You say you'll be comfortable, but you really don't know. Come back and report after you survive your first mugging and let us know how adequately your training prepared you.

Edit: And any trainer who convinces you that you're likely to disarm an armed adversary unscathed is doing half of the would-be attacker's work for him.

 

[DCSpartan]

Good krav schools make you spar.

Great krav schools make you spar in unfair situations that you wont ever face in a Muay Thai ring. Multiple opponents, starting off with a knife against your throat, blindsided attacks, etc etc.

That being said, lots of bad Krav schools out there, like any other martial art.

 

[Discipulus]

Good krav schools make you spar.

Great krav schools make you spar in unfair situations that you wont ever face in a Muay Thai ring. Multiple opponents, starting off with a knife against your throat, blindsided attacks, etc etc.

That being said, lots of bad Krav schools out there, like any other martial art.

I'd say that Krav Maga has a higher percentage of bad schools than other, proven martial arts. But probably not more than arts like TKD and Karate.

 

[DCSpartan]

I'd say that Krav Maga has a higher percentage of bad schools than other, proven martial arts. But probably not more than arts like TKD and Karate.

well, you cant discount the fact that it is the core of combatives training for both IDF and USMC either.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

well, you cant discount the fact that it is the core of combatives training for both IDF and USMC either.

Yes you can. Military hand to hand combat training is extremely old fashioned and overrated. They have rifles, and side arms, and bayonets.
How often do you think they end up one on one with a combatant, and both don't have any form of firearm.
Soldier train to shoot people. In the fractional percent chance they can't shoot them, they train to stab them. Only then do they train for the Incredibly small chance they have to fight hand to hand in full webbing and body armour. Training reflects this.
And yes I do know military hand to hand combat instructors.

 

[SummerStriker]

Krav Mage literally translates to "mma for self defense."

It is just marketing for people who know any other two martial arts. Muay Thai and Kali? That's KM. Muay Thai and Gracie Combative? That's KM. TKD, Yudo and Hapkido? Again, that's KM.

As long as you know any two styles and a couple old school knife and gun disarms, you can teach KM.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Krav Maga as it is taught in Israel is mostly useless techniques? Are you or anyone else seriously gonna argue that? I mean, ok, I can understand that about a commercialized American version, which probably should not even have the Krav Maga label but not for Krav maga as it is properly taught. The idea that Krav maga teaches mostly useless techniques is too moronic to be taken seriously for a millisecond. You do understand that, don't you?

I know two ex-IDF KM instructors, and one of them told me that most of the techniques are bullshit and now he does do Kickboxing and BJJ (last i heard he was a brown belt). The only thing useful the KM apostate learned was a aggressive/non-defensive mindset. That is the only useful thing KM teaches is to always be aggressive an self-defense situation, never counter punch or wait for a movement (i.e., strike first, strike hard, and leave quickly).

That being said, KM is one of the best ways to teach a group of people in a short period of time to fight (i.e., quick military/police course). However, in the long run it is very myopic and inferior to other strategies.

EDIT: he also told me that most of the IDF-KM instructors have a background in other combat sports (usually Judo, Boxing, BJJ, MMA, Full-Contact Karate, Kickboxing), before joining the IDF and learning KM.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Yes you can. Military hand to hand combat training is extremely old fashioned and overrated. They have rifles, and side arms, and bayonets.
How often do you think they end up one on one with a combatant, and both don't have any form of firearm.
Soldier train to shoot people. In the fractional percent chance they can't shoot them, they train to stab them. Only then do they train for the Incredibly small chance they have to fight hand to hand in full webbing and body armour. Training reflects this.
And yes I do know military hand to hand combat instructors.

That. Whenever i see the "but it is used in the army too" I can only shake my head. This isn't a movie with 3 minutes fighting scene, folks.

And also, this. If this is Krav Maga in Israel then i might as well just stick to normal combat sports, because apparently it is just "maul the other guy"
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Additionally, whenever the "we train for no rules therefore we use dirty shits like crotch kick and eye poke" I wonder if the person who said it actually had any understanding of what "self-defense" mean, especially in a legal context. I know who the judge is gonna side for when one is a perfectly healthy guy and another who just got his testicles ruptured with one blind eyes. That's not to mention that crotch kick and eye poke and other stuffs are rather low percentage.

Just for the lulz, here are two other things:
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While i don't necessarily like their view on the martial art part, Penn & Teller did quite a good job with the "self defense" part of the episode

As for the sport "they train for the rules" argument, may I present to you Lomachenko vs Salido. For a fight in with a defined set of rules, both boxers ended up pushing (Lomachenko) and low-blows (Salido) all over the place.

 

[frango]

Yes you can. Military hand to hand combat training is extremely old fashioned and overrated. They have rifles, and side arms, and bayonets.
How often do you think they end up one on one with a combatant, and both don't have any form of firearm.
Soldier train to shoot people. In the fractional percent chance they can't shoot them, they train to stab them. Only then do they train for the Incredibly small chance they have to fight hand to hand in full webbing and body armour. Training reflects this.
And yes I do know military hand to hand combat instructors.

Yes, and in this situation of a life threat they train muay thai, boxing, bjj, mma or krav maga?

You can use whatever sig you want. Im discovering the lack of respect is a commom thing on sherdog. Yeah, go this way, do this.


I live in Brasil. In both krav maga institutions i have attended there were several policemen and army guys training.

Kobi Liechtenstein is proud to teach the army and special police forces in Brazil.
I dont see any gracie academy announcing that on their website. Or any other martial arts at all. Here is the list wich Kobi is proud of: http://www.kravmaga.com.br/languages/eua/?id=quem-faz

But im sure someone wil come and say there are plenty police officers practicing BJJ in theyr dojos. I really guess is a matter of choice. What about that? Can you respect that?

 

[Discipulus]

Yes, and in this situation of a life threat they train muay thai, boxing, bjj, mma or krav maga?

You can use whatever sig you want. Im discovering the lack of respect is a commom thing on sherdog. Yeah, go this way, do this.


I live in Brasil. In both krav maga institutions i have attended there were several policemen and army guys training.

Kobi Liechtenstein is proud to teach the army and special police forces in Brazil.
I dont see any gracie academy announcing that on their website. Or any other martial arts at all. Here is the list wich Kobi is proud of: http://www.kravmaga.com.br/languages/eua/?id=quem-faz

But im sure someone wil come and say there are plenty police officers practicing BJJ in theyr dojos. I really guess is a matter of choice. What about that? Can you respect that?

What does it honestly matter that policemen and armed servicemen practice Krav Maga? Presumably you are not a policeman or a member of the military, and you don't walk around with a gun, and often a taser or knife as well.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I figure it sort of justified that "hey look, it totally justified my aim that study krav maga helped me prepare for teh street".

The only problem is that you can easily apply that logic to every other fucking arts.

 

[DCSpartan]

Muay Thai doesnt cover weapon defense . . . or being attacked from behind . . . or anything else like real life.

It teaches you, like most striking arts, to circle around and try to find range in a wide open environment leaving certain parts of body wide open to damage. That may work if you are lucky, but in a real fight such scenarios are actually very, very rare.

And assuming you will never get in a fight with a guy with a knife, or a baseball bat, or a broken bottle, or a gun just concedes the fight to your opponent before it has begun.

Some parts of MT are really effective, which is why our Krav curriculum incorporates it. But a lot of MT just doesnt apply to any scenario where you dont have a referee in teh ring with you.

/cheers

 

[DCSpartan]

What does it honestly matter that policemen and armed servicemen practice Krav Maga? Presumably you are not a policeman or a member of the military, and you don't walk around with a gun, and often a taser or knife as well.

You presume wrong.

I know how the body physiologically reacts to actual shock, surprise, and life and death stress - which is not the same as what you deal with when sparring.

Which is why simpler, brutal, gross motor movements always win out over preciseness when you get thrown in a crappy unexpected situation.

And just because you dont walk around with a knife doesnt mean lots of others do - or a gun.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Ha the first krav video nuke posted always cracks me up

They all come in one at a time and throw telegraphed slow haymakers at the female instructor that she easily blocks with her chops and palm strikes

while they all dog pile the host full out

If the military is gonna pull that kind of snake oil that doesnt leave little hope for the art.

 

[sourdiesel209]

Muay Thai doesnt cover weapon defense . . . or being attacked from behind . . . or anything else like real life.

It teaches you, like most striking arts, to circle around and try to find range in a wide open environment leaving certain parts of body wide open to damage. That may work if you are lucky, but in a real fight such scenarios are actually very, very rare.

And assuming you will never get in a fight with a guy with a knife, or a baseball bat, or a broken bottle, or a gun just concedes the fight to your opponent before it has begun.

Some parts of MT are really effective, which is why our Krav curriculum incorporates it. But a lot of MT just doesnt apply to any scenario where you dont have a referee in teh ring with you.

/cheers

I know of a better art for dealing with these "real" fights, its called thriathlons... if you cant hijack a bike, you can run, if your near a lake or a river u can go swimming and ur attackers wont follow you

sorry to burst your krav maga bubble, but you training for these scenarios just gives you false confidence thay could be used against you...

thing is, unless you spar with knives and baseball bats, you arent as prepared as you think for these sort of things... which I doubt ANY krav school does.

Also saying MT teaches u circling around just shows u havent really practiced it... its all abou going forward and clinch work, very usedulmi u get into a fight in a confined space

 

[DCSpartan]

I
thing is, unless you spar with knives and baseball bats, you arent as prepared as you think for these sort of things... which I doubt ANY krav school does.

lmao. Of course we do. You just dont understand krav maga, or modern combatives for that matter (krav isnt the only solution), and make a lot of false assumptions.

Hell, my first class we sparred with training knives. And Ive never been beating up sparring with the MT guys in my gym as when we did single stick (ie basebasll bat) defense with lots and lots of resistance in my krav class.

Like I said, we embrace MT, boxing, and other arts where it makes sense. OUr senior instructors get lots of feedback from the schools, military, and LE what is working in real life, and what isnt, and we adjust accordingly.

Our krav style is better than what it was two years ago, and is a lot better than what it was 10 years ago. And 5 years from now it will be even better.

You also have to understand that sparring has limitations as well.

 

[aries]

Personally I'd never advise somebody to use their thumb to grip during grappling, its general back practice. What I mean by hook the tricep is have your hand like a mantis. As a wrestler I imagen TS knows what I mean.

I understand what you mean about the underhook. Where you almost step behind them with a straight armlock? it's hard to describe.

It's not used for pulling though it's for pushing. Think of it more like a pitchfork and the thumb is one of the prongs, the fingers the other prong and you have the opponents arm in between.

Yeah exactly, like how Disciplus describes. James Mcsweeney shows it here just with different entry at 5:30
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