KO power.

[cockysprinter]

Could someone explicate this?

I don't understand what he's trying to say. Is he saying that speed is responsible for 2/3 of power output or is he saying that when peak power output is attained- in that instant- speed accounts for 2/3 of that output? If the latter is the case, how relevant is that? So let's assume speed is dominant during the peak power output of a punch; would that peak power have been possible to attain at all if there wasn't that strength for starting power?

It was my understanding that strength is much more important than speed to total power output. Perhaps for peak power output, speed is the limiting factor, but for maximizing YOUR total power (regardless of who you are), the potential for an increase in power is greatest through an increase in strength. FT/ST Fiber composition is innate; research suggests even strength training can't significantly improve it. But everyone can improve max strength.

So, regardless, my opinion is this. Don't fatigue yourself lifting at the expense of technique. Be the most technical puncher you can be. Also work to maintain what speed you have; be the fastest puncher you can be.

But also be the strongest puncher you can be. I bet Benni could become a pretty ferocious puncher with just a few weeks or months of training.

I'm not exactly sure what he's talking about, but power definately has a time component. The trouble with determing power from a physics standpoint is we don't know if power comes from power, force, kinetic energy, momentum, pressure, etc. Strength is important to power output when lifting weights, not so much for a speed dominant movment such as punching.

 

[Duncon76]

FORCE and velocity= Power. Clubbells are some of the best tools to help one in training for this. Just saying in general. )

 

[Rjkd12]

Power is equal to Work over time. Work is equal to power times distance.

So we have P = (F*D)/T

Velocity is equal to distance over time. Hence why its always meters/second.

Integrating the two (i'm making this up, but it seems to make sense) it should be P= F/T + Velocity

I am no math expert, but looking over these numbers it doesn't seem as if any variable puts more emphasis on the answer than the others. Halving your time or doubleing your force will give you the same power. So this 2/3 1/3 doesn't seem right.

Now, since we are not talking about machines and we are talking about how to increase punching power this makes things deivate from simple equations. If this guy is speaking from years of observation and he seems to think that power is only 1/3, and training speed is better, he might be right. Nerds with glasses and stopwatches can only tell you so much about how the human body works, sometimes integrating physics doesn't exactly equate real life answers (since these equations aren't necissarily for man, i.e. they are not considering acceleration at all)

An important question, what is easier? Doubling power or halving speed?

I think strength is more important. Speed, IMO, is can only be increased so much, which is mostly done with technique. I wouldn't do any "punching" specific exercises, just workout to increase force.

Then, you'll see the fastest increase in power with working on technique. After you have 90% of the technique down, you'll mostly gain power from increases in force. I think you'll decrease time the most by working on technique.

So, go to class to learn technique, pay attention on how to punch. Then hit the gym and get stronger. Lastly, don't buy any machines that specifically work punching power, or any tapes that promise you can punch 7 times in a second.

Any help mick?

 

[BackBrainKick]

Technique, and specifically, aim is important in KO'ing someone...like Gomi and CroCop; great aim in their strikes, usually directed towards the chin/jawline/neck area, critical in moving that vagus nerve to make 'em go nighty-night...punches to the temples and nose are also good spots

- just swinging for the fences without giving thought to WHERE on their head/face you want to hit won't be as effective...punching someone in the forehead/crown will hurt YOU...the mouth is an okay target, but if you knock their teeth out and they become embedded in your knuckles, YOU will be the one in the hospital with a green, infected hand, while they have to go to the dentist...

-besides strength training, learning how to punch effectively with speed is important; hip/shoulder rotation and form

 

[#1can]

this argument is overdone. but here goes:

there are many ways to define power. I^2(R) in a resistor, Fd/t, etc.

The most applicable for this purpose is P = F * V...power equals force times velocity. that pretty much covers it. force. times velocity. there is no mystery.

exactly how this relates to KO power is a little more situational...angles and whatnot.

 

[cockysprinter]

The most applicable for this purpose is P = F * V...power equals force times velocity. that pretty much covers it. force. times velocity. there is no mystery.

power = (force*distance)/time

 

[#1can]

power = (force*distance)/time

yeah um, are you saying i'm wrong or what?
notice how that formula is also in my post?

what i say is all the formulas are the same thing. the most relevant one, since it is instantaneous, is P=FV.

P = Fd/t accounts for power output over a distance and time. that is not important. what is important is FV at the moment of impact. Of course, physics can only be applied so much...its not really about numbers.

 

[cockysprinter]

yeah um, are you saying i'm wrong or what?
notice how that formula is also in my post?

what i say is all the formulas are the same thing. the most relevant one, since it is instantaneous, is P=FV.

P = Fd/t accounts for power output over a distance and time. that is not important. what is important is FV at the moment of impact. Of course, physics can only be applied so much...its not really about numbers.

yeah i was saying you were wrong, but i didnt realize the equation i knew could be rewritten like that. my bad, thats very interesting.

 

[eljamaiquino]

I don't think we should be using the power equation, but rather Force = Mass * Acceleration. Use bands and chains on the major lifts to help with acceleration. Use technique to put your whole body mass behind the punch. It's that simple (not easy)...

Its not the velocity, but the acceleration that counts.

Powerlifters produce more power, Bodybuilders do more work, but its olympic lifters who produce the most force. Mass* Acceleration....

 

[tinker_190]

I don't know if you can easily explain it with physics formulas. Even though the force equations you showed are correct, you also have to include impact area, and probably a lot more.

Plus, a pure knockout has to do with fatigue, area of impact, force and follow through.

So, it breaks down like this...

Lift weights and work on form/technique. That is pretty much all you can do. Make sure you excersize you r hands, too.

 

[tinker_190]

Oh, and eat Slim Jim. They will make you into a uber-mega-badass.

 

[#1can]

I don't know if you can easily explain it with physics formulas. Even though the force equations you showed are correct, you also have to include impact area, and probably a lot more.

Plus, a pure knockout has to do with fatigue, area of impact, force and follow through.

So, it breaks down like this...

Lift weights and work on form/technique. That is pretty much all you can do. Make sure you excersize you r hands, too.

I actually don't think that impact area has anything to do with KO power, though it definitely has to do with jaw-breaking, etc. The reasons you get knocked out are from acceleration of your skull relative to your brain and vice versa, and the subsequent collision. Area of impact may change the pressure, but it doesn't change the force, which governs the acceleration.

Man i'm confusing myself.

Yeah slim jims are badass

 

[Mojorisin99]

Until a fucking alligator bites your hand off!

LOL

 

[peanut butter]

condition your hands by punching nails

 

[Madmick]

I don't think we should be using the power equation, but rather Force = Mass * Acceleration. Use bands and chains on the major lifts to help with acceleration. Use technique to put your whole body mass behind the punch. It's that simple (not easy)...

Its not the velocity, but the acceleration that counts.

Powerlifters produce more power, Bodybuilders do more work, but its olympic lifters who produce the most force. Mass* Acceleration....

Yeah, that's where I got. I've been trying to make sense of RJKD's post, and I came across this:
http://www.kazmaslanka.com/The_power_of_Confidence_poem.html

Power= Energy/Time
Energy= Force*Distance
so
Power= (Force*Distance)/Time
Force= Mass*Acceleration
therefore
Power= (Mass*Acceleration*Distance)/Time
remembering that
Acceleration= (Distance*Velocity)/(Distance*Time)

This is the equation we should be talking about: P=mad/t
I don't think that integration worked, RJ, I was trying to write a proof for it.

I'm a bit wiped, at the moment, but I did check this at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration

However, accleration in this sense is really average acceleration. Since accleration is a vector quantity (relying on two variables, like distance and time), using algebra, we can only calculate it if we also have a certain distance. But in reality, the rate of accleration changes over the course of a punch. For example, if we took a short distance at the beginning of a punch, and another at the end of that punch, the acceleration of the two might not match (even though, in physics, over the course of the entire punch we assign a single value for acceleration). This was the reason for the advent of calculus. It projects a curve that accomodates not only the changing rate of velocity (acceleration), but the changing rate of acceleration itself.

My point being that I remain confused, but skeptical of this author's claim (that speed accounts for 2/3 of total power in a punch). Acceleration is greatest at the beginning of a movement. This should be obvious enough, since the velocity of a limb before you move it is zero. We were always told as swimmers to expend the most energy in the first four strokes out of a flip-turn or dive, since we could only maintain that acceleration, never produce it (you can't swim as fast as you can dive). It seems the same for a fighter: train to maintain the acceleration you generate at the beginning of a motion; isn't this why Couture and the wrestlers use those bands, Eli, in their takedown training, or some strikers use it in their punch training?

Why is the above paragraph important? Because I don't see how speed could become more important at the apex of a punch (where contact is made) because that is where acceleration is least. Velocity may be greatest there, but acceleration is least.

Power is still, in essence, energy/time. If you double the mass (the weight moved) or half the time (increasing acceleration), as RJ pointed out, the power is increased. The author made no mention of varying rates of acceleration or transverse acceleration in relation to physiology.

He doesn't seem to know what in the hell he's talking about.

 

[#1can]

Yeah, that's where I got. I've been trying to make sense of RJKD's post, and I came across this:
http://www.kazmaslanka.com/The_power_of_Confidence_poem.html

Power= Energy/Time
Energy= Force*Distance
so
Power= (Force*Distance)/Time
Force= Mass*Acceleration
therefore
Power= (Mass*Acceleration*Distance)/Time
remembering that
Acceleration= (Distance*Velocity)/(Distance*Time)

This is the equation we should be talking about: P=mad/t
I don't think that integration worked, RJ, I was trying to write a proof for it.

I'm a bit wiped, at the moment, but I did check this at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration

However, accleration in this sense is really average acceleration. Since accleration is a vector quantity (relying on two variables, like distance and time), using algebra, we can only calculate it if we also have a certain distance. But in reality, the rate of accleration changes over the course of a punch. For example, if we took a short distance at the beginning of a punch, and another at the end of that punch, the acceleration of the two might not match (even though, in physics, over the course of the entire punch we assign a single value for acceleration). This was the reason for the advent of calculus. It projects a curve that accomodates not only the changing rate of velocity (acceleration), but the changing rate of acceleration itself.

My point being that I remain confused, but skeptical of this author's claim (that speed accounts for 2/3 of total power in a punch). Acceleration is greatest at the beginning of a movement. This should be obvious enough, since the velocity of a limb before you move it is zero. We were always told as swimmers to expend the most energy in the first four strokes out of a flip-turn or dive, since we could only maintain that acceleration, never produce it (you can't swim as fast as you can dive). It seems the same for a fighter: train to maintain the acceleration you generate at the beginning of a motion; isn't this why Couture and the wrestlers use those bands, Eli, in their takedown training, or some strikers use it in their punch training?

Why is the above paragraph important? Because I don't see how speed could become more important at the apex of a punch (where contact is made) because that is where acceleration is least. Velocity may be greatest there, but acceleration is least.

Power is still, in essence, energy/time. If you double the mass (the weight moved) or half the time (increasing acceleration), as RJ pointed out, the power is increased. The author made no mention of varying rates of acceleration or transverse acceleration in relation to physiology.

He doesn't seem to know what in the hell he's talking about.

I still disagree. Your formulae are all right, but i still believe the most applicable function is P = FV, for one specific reason:

By bringing displacement and time into the equation that you use, you are calculating power output over an interval. By differentiating you get P = F(dd/dt) = FV giving the instantaneous power of a moving fist, which is more important as who cares what your hand does before it hits the guy.

Of course, the absolute best (read: only) way to calculate the KO power of a punch would be to use the formula you propose, P = Fd/t and integrate it with respect to someone's head, not the fist. Measure the force exerted, the distance their head moved, and the time it took, integrate that shit, and you've got some serious numbers. Of course for all practical purposes this is impossible.

 

[Madmick]

No, you and I are in agreement, #1Can.
I was trying to prove the guy's statement, that's what all the discussion of acceleration was for. I failed, and I don't think through any fault of my own. Basically, I was just saying, "There's no fancy way to justify this statement: nothing with physics, anway."

So I iterate: be the most technical puncher you can be, be the fastest puncher you can be.

But also be the STRONGEST puncher you can be.

 

[#1can]

So I iterate: be the most technical puncher you can be, be the fastest puncher you can be.

But also be the STRONGEST puncher you can be.

Well said, and may the words differentiation and integrate never be used in the sherdog forum again.

 

[Urban]

I can't stand the stupidity... you guys know that velocity = distance/time right? therefore p=fv is the exact same thing as p=fd/t. It's the exact same equation!

In any event, I don't beleive that speed accounds for 2/3 of the equation... it would appear it only accounts for half. breaking the equation down into simple units (mass, time and distance) you would have

p = (md^2)/(t^3) . I derived this by converting the acceleration (d/(t^2) assuming the initial velocity is 0) and velocity (d/t) and subsituting them back in. so now, lets look at how many times velocity can be substituted in:

p= (m/t)*(d/t)*(d/t) which turns into P = (m/t)*v*v. Now anyone who doesn't know any better would say, OHHHhhh, that's why velocity makes up for two thirds of the equation, because 2/3s of the variables making up the end product are velocity. But any quantity squared in an equation has MUCH more sway over an equation because it increases so much faster giving it more importance than only 2/3 of the output. Creating a one variable function of this equation generates some problems, because you want velocity to be the independent variable, and it is hinged on time. You could use time as a variable but that doesn't get you the answers we're looking for.

Look I'm not going to go into this much further, the bottom line is this: velocity might be 2 thirds of the fight game, speed kills. I would definitely say it's twice as maximum force generation at low velocities, however it's not 2/3 of the power equation in physics. period. Power is important, more important to a boxer or fighter than max force generation. Are these equations important? not really no. they're a fun way to fuck around and kill an hour that would have been better spent on the heavy bag. They take a lot of liberties (average accelleration, linear line of travel, instantaneous deceleration, etc.) when you try to apply them to striking, and in the end it's not worth your time. Accuracy and power are important in a knock out and you get those with practice. done, end of thread (I hope.)

 

[SmashiusClay]

Would people please stop using suvat equation sfor non-constant accelerations as you're making Newton cry.