1. Server maintenance is scheduled for today between 11AM and 2PM ET. The site will go down for 15-20 mins. We'll try to get it done before noon.

Karate blackbelts in MMA

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Hotora86, May 30, 2016.

  1. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    the point simply being there were multiple karate styles in the early-mid 20th century and trying unify them at that point under a single leadership probably wasn't realistic. even today, there are how many international karate organizations? now many national organizations within the US?

    heck my organization while not something like the IOGKF, is an international goju karate oragnization having dojos in 4 countries...
     
  2. SandisLL Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,547
    Likes Received:
    39
    Well, now there are > 50 different names for these karates, each is with Association/ federation.
    Also 2 large styles each have 5 federations each at international level.
    I don't know much, but there is dependance from head quarters etc.
    Damn complicated stuff are these karate styles and organisations.
    In europe 2 different feds holdst their own Continental ch ships for Kyokushin, maybe even some others too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  3. BudoNoah Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    It's definitely an interesting blend of effective and esoteric, which makes it hard for less-discerning martial artists to work out what to do with it, I suspect. I can see that causing some people to think that, because some of the techniques are ones they know work, the others must work too, and they "just don't understand them yet." I would tend to agree with you that it was not nearly as pivotal a work to the development of karate as it was made out to be. There is a notable book from 17th Century China, called Wu Pei Zhi (or Wubei Chi, depending on dialect), which is often cited as being the point of origin for the Bubishi (being another possible pronunciation).

    The trouble is, it isn't a single book--it's 240 of them--and, of course, it's also entirely in Chinese, which puts up a language barrier to determining how true that is. I will say, however, that I once perused 900 pages of it, and nowhere did I see illustrations like those seen in the Bubishi. At the time, I was rather surprised, but in hindsight it makes sense. The Wu Pei Zhi was written by a naval officer in the Chinese military, and as such the majority of illustrations have to do with large scale maps, battle plans, troop formations, etc. The closest thing to the Bubishi illustrations that I could find were a mere handful of pictures that show how an individual should hold a spear. Of course, there are over 10,000 pages, total, so I only got to see a fraction. I think it would be very interesting to see the rest of the illustrations, and get some translations for the accompanying text, if it exists, at all. In the end, I find it to be more of a historical curiosity, rather than a real reference book.

    As for the way Iain's folks train, I've seen some personal video of it, and talked with him about it, before. Like me, they do a variety of different sparring methods, including MMA-style sparring, kickboxing-style sparring, grappling-specific sparring, and scenario-based sparring. That spectrum lets them cover a wide array of skills, and incorporate both sporting methods and self defense methods. Of course, the drills are what people really look for on the internet, and want him to come teach, so that's what you'll find online. I will also say that while he definitely promotes pressure testing and sparring of various types in his seminars, there is no way to say how many attendees actually do that part when they get back to their dojo. I have known plenty of people to attend seminars, memorize a collection techniques and drills, and call it good.
     
  4. StanClarker Yellow Card Yellow Card

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2019
    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    263
    Well, I am overwhelmed. Lots of material here directed those already knowledgeable. Not me.

    I flipped through these MMA competitors on the 'net. I saw that GSP had Kyokushin in his background (but boxed in MMA?); Machida harkened from Shotokan karate.

    I'm going to center my karate investigation on these two MMA competitors and their respective styles. Must say though, I am off-put by the volume & detail of the postings here. Overload.

    I checked with that boxing club owner up the street about MMA and he said he had no interest in training MMA competitors. Still, I think he could. Just a personal decision, not a reflection on boxing's usefulness.
     
  5. Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,021
    Likes Received:
    95
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    GSP grew up doing Kyokushin from age 7 with his dad to about age 16 and was a national junior champ age 11 to 15. After that he started training wrestling, BJJ, Boxing etc.
    Machida grew up doing Shotokan with his dad and brother, and never really stopped.

    It's not all about MMA and I actually believe that it's better to learn each style independently and properly rather than just "Boxing for MMA".
     
  6. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    I agree, but it also kind of depends on how long it takes to ‘properly’ learn each style.

    If you want to use karate and BJJ it could be over a decade to ‘properly’ learn each style, which may not be realistic.

    Sure there some kids who started karate or TKD at like 5 who could pick up BJJ or wrestling at 10-15and spend another 5 years on those and then spend a year or two putting them all together
     
  7. Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,021
    Likes Received:
    95
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Learning something properly doesn't mean being a master at it. It all depends on your goals anyway.
     
  8. Hotora86 #StayTheFuckHome #FlattenTheCurve #WashYourHands

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    16,791
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    in a 10-10 round
    Depends on what your definition of "properly" is. If you mean getting a black belt, which in turn means mastering the curriculum, then I don't think it's necessary. I've known brown belts who could smash anyone and gave no fucks about further grading.

    As for putting Karate and BJJ together - I think it's really not that hard since there is little common ground. You use Karate for standup and then if you get taken down you use your BJJ. Bit worse if BJJ is your stronger side and you need to take ppl down... still doable tho.
     
  9. Oldguy Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is what I did - BJJ for 20+ years and Shotokan for about 12 years. The two mix very well.

    But, there are some funny parts:

    I get to laugh my butt off when at Shotokan class when they TRY to teach throws or grappling. So lame. Even worse, when they explain how they will punch their way out of a guillotine, that is good for a few laughs.

    Then at BJJ, when they teach striking or self defense, I get to continue laughing. No one even knows how to make a proper fist. They take a wide boxers stance which is just begging for me to kick them in the nuts.
     
  10. StanClarker Yellow Card Yellow Card

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2019
    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    263
    That's interesting. The difference in training philosophy between GSP & Machida. Adds another dimension to their practicing different karate styles.

    Also provides plenty of angles for exploring just these two MMA competitors. Just as I imagined. Tnx.
    Yes, that's what I stated a thread or two earlier. Then a lot of commentary came in that was overly-complicated and shallowly ridiculous as well.

    I've come to realize there are some vested interested established on this forum.
     
  11. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    i'm in no way questioning the compatibility of karate and BJJ, and while i agree that the best approach is to reach a high level of skill in each art individually and then train to integrate them, i realize that for many that might be a little unrealistic, since you'd basically need to have that path set from a fairly young age other wise you'd likely be reaching the end of the typical fighting age by the time you got through all that training.

    even getting to 3rd kyu in karate will take about 3 years. if you make the decision to give it a go in your mid 20s say 25 you're 28 by the time you hit 3rd kyu, and then you study BJJ for we'll say 3 years 31, and then you spend a year learning to put them all together 32, and probably another year in the ammy and low level pro scene before you have an opportunity to make it to the big leagues these days, 33 years old by the time you debut in bellator, UFC, or ONE, giving you what? realistically 5-7 years?

    while i am aware there have been a number of high level fighters in the 35+ age group i'm pretty sure they're the exceptions.

    so here it seems the average age of UFC fighters is 31 meaning you should likely expect most people in their 30s will likely be fairly well more experienced than you at the same age, with 37 being the max age listed.
    https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2017/1/...t-month-spreadsheet-data-roster-mma-editorial

    that's my only point, that unless you already had a few years of training behind you at 25, you're likely not going to have a very long career in a major league if you make that approach, despite thinking it's the best approach myself.

    but then again 5 years might be enough.
    https://www.fightopinion.com/2011/06/19/9-year-rule-mma-ufc/
     
  12. SandaKicker Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,156
    Likes Received:
    169
    I've been reading a bit about the different styles of Karate the last couple of days.

    I did wado ryu for two years training one class a week, it was at a school that was mainly focused on point style competitions.

    I've noticed recently that I use a very tall stance, taller than I'd like. From what I've read that is typical of Wado ryu, I attributed it to Muay Thai but thinking about it Wado Ryu was probably an influence in it as well. I don't necessarily consider it a bad thing, a taller stance is good for landing front kicks and checking kicks, I'm glad that I did train in it to some degree.
     
  13. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    i agree but a shodan is far from what most would call a master of karate or judo lol. hell i'm 4th dan and i'd never consider referring to myself as a master of karate lol
     
  14. Hotora86 #StayTheFuckHome #FlattenTheCurve #WashYourHands

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    16,791
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    in a 10-10 round
    Listen, I don't disagree that it takes a lot of time to get your blackbelt in Karate but there are many people who started late in their life and still reaped some major benefits from it before hitting 30, before 25 even. Also, you don't have to train Karate first and only THEN progress to BJJ. People who want to compete in MMA almost never do it like that, they train multiple arts at the same time and figure out how to put them together as they go along.

    Finally, you can cross-train in Karate at any time. Vitor Belfort trained Shotokan Karate (and got a blue belt) to improve his overall fight game when he was an accomplished MMA fighter already. Not saying that a blue belt is always "enough" but a blue belt who has cross-trained other things and knows how to use the Karate skills PRACTICALLY (as Vitor obviously does) can be formidable.

    Source for doubters:
    https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/1/...karate-master-to-prepare-for-his-ufc-126-bout
     
  15. Hotora86 #StayTheFuckHome #FlattenTheCurve #WashYourHands

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    16,791
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    in a 10-10 round
    Wait, what?
    You're a 4th dan?
    In what org?
    How long did that take?
    How old are you?
     
  16. SandisLL Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,547
    Likes Received:
    39
    In 80 ies and beginning of 90 ies some from guys that get medals in European continentals and Olympics were just shodan or nidan in Judo at this time. Later of course they climbed up and now most propably all are high rank dans in Judo.
     
  17. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    sho rei shobu kan, 17 years would have been a bit less but spent 4 years between 3rd and 4th in the navy and didn't get to test on time lol, and i'll be 30 in a few months.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  18. JohnPJones Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    33
    most people can't afford to train multiple arts at the same time lol. i agree that would be ideal. i couldn't afford to pay a boxing gym and a judo dojo at the same time, thats for sure just financially not to mention i couldn't afford the cost to my personal life as i'd never ever see my gf except when in getting in or out of bed.

    i mean if you're already an accomplished striker you don't need to go super in depth in any other striking art, or at least you'll progress through the early ranks quickly. i'm primarily talking about people who around 20 have decided to make a serious attempt at an MMA career.
     
  19. SandisLL Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,547
    Likes Received:
    39
    I agree.
    Actually there also different fitness programmes grappling versus pure striking.
    Plus time required too, It is damn a lot. If one is student or working, damn hard.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  20. spacetime Yellow Card Yellow Card

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    11,865
    Likes Received:
    317
    Which is why "Karate" is a meaningless, generic term. Kinda like how "Chinese Boxing" can mean Boxing, Kickboxing or Kung FU and various styles of those systems.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.