Karate blackbelts in MMA

I've always wondered about that though.

I think the brutal truth is that most instructors/practitioners simply don't know most of the kata grappling applications themselves. It's more of a trial and error approach with mixed results and stumbling into things.

So I kind of question how much standing grappling is actually found in kata or Karate because if we are being brutally honest no-one can say without reasonable doubt - that this x or y application is a grappling technique.

Outside the few verified grappling techniques - the rest is just pure speculation/assumption. It's like picking up and trying to fit one puzzle piece at a time - until it fits into the entirety of the puzzle. The difference being we don't even know what the entire puzzle looks like - we can only discern what it may look like.

Then there is the even more concerning point that you rarely see anyone in the Karate world apply these grappling techniques (found in kata - outside of the very basic ones) in actual kumite or sparring. If you can't apply something in sparring - it's a theory in my eyes.
Solid documentation in the form of explanatory manuals would have been nice between 1800-1900, but the Japanese and okinawans did things much differently than the West unfortunately.

At the very least explanation of interpretation of kata should have been explained to more than one or two students per instructor
 
I've always wondered about that though.

I think the brutal truth is that most instructors/practitioners simply don't know most of the kata grappling applications themselves. It's more of a trial and error approach with mixed results and stumbling into things.

So I kind of question how much standing grappling is actually found in kata or Karate because if we are being brutally honest no-one can say without reasonable doubt - that this x or y application is a grappling technique.

Outside the few verified grappling techniques - the rest is just pure speculation/assumption. It's like picking up and trying to fit one puzzle piece at a time - until it fits into the entirety of the puzzle. The difference being we don't even know what the entire puzzle looks like - we can only discern what it may look like.

Then there is the even more concerning point that you rarely see anyone in the Karate world apply these grappling techniques (found in kata - outside of the very basic ones) in actual kumite or sparring. If you can't apply something in sparring - it's a theory in my eyes.
I know exactly what you mean and these doubts are understandable. Uncovering historical (or "true") Karate bunkai is somewhat archaeological - you dig up old texts and compare structures of kata in various styles, trying to connect these "old bones" into the skeleton of some "common ancestor". :D

Luckily, we have guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernethy who do this kind of thing and then successfully re-create many of this "common ancestor's" techniques. The foundation is of course The Bubishi - the so-called "Bible of Karate", a Kung Fu manual studied and revered by most (if not all) of the original Karate masters. Application of Karate kata can often be traced directly to techniques of The Bubishi - and that's a start!


https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/bubishi-–-karate’s-most-important-text

As for application in sparring - well, obviously with WKF rules this is impossible. But I am optimistic. I do believe that a new martial arts era is upon us. The popularity of MMA has put a lot of pressure on TMAs for MMA-like rules, MMA-like practices, MMA-like applications. Karate doesn't have to borrow these from MMA - it already has them in the Kata, they just need to be pulled out of obscurity and back on the mat. :)

PS. Just yesterday I passed a new Aikido dojo called "Ultimate Aiki", marketing itself as "Aikido with elements of MMA". See, the revolution has already begun! ;)
 
I've always wondered about that though.

I think the brutal truth is that most instructors/practitioners simply don't know most of the kata grappling applications themselves. It's more of a trial and error approach with mixed results and stumbling into things.

So I kind of question how much standing grappling is actually found in kata or Karate because if we are being brutally honest no-one can say without reasonable doubt - that this x or y application is a grappling technique.

Outside the few verified grappling techniques - the rest is just pure speculation/assumption. It's like picking up and trying to fit one puzzle piece at a time - until it fits into the entirety of the puzzle. The difference being we don't even know what the entire puzzle looks like - we can only discern what it may look like.

Then there is the even more concerning point that you rarely see anyone in the Karate world apply these grappling techniques (found in kata - outside of the very basic ones) in actual kumite or sparring. If you can't apply something in sparring - it's a theory in my eyes.

I know exactly what you mean and these doubts are understandable. Uncovering historical (or "true") Karate bunkai is somewhat archaeological - you dig up old texts and compare structures of kata in various styles, trying to connect these "old bones" into the skeleton of some "common ancestor". :D

Luckily, we have guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernethy who do this kind of thing and then successfully re-create many of this "common ancestor's" techniques. The foundation is of course The Bubishi - the so-called "Bible of Karate", a Kung Fu manual studied and revered by most (if not all) of the original Karate masters. Application of Karate kata can often be traced directly to techniques of The Bubishi - and that's a start!


https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/bubishi-–-karate’s-most-important-text

As for application in sparring - well, obviously with WKF rules this is impossible. But I am optimistic. I do believe that a new martial arts era is upon us. The popularity of MMA has put a lot of pressure on TMAs for MMA-like rules, MMA-like practices, MMA-like applications. Karate doesn't have to borrow these from MMA - it already has them in the Kata, they just need to be pulled out of obscurity and back on the mat. :)

PS. Just yesterday I passed a new Aikido dojo called "Ultimate Aiki", marketing itself as "Aikido with elements of MMA". See, the revolution has already begun! ;)


You're absolutely right that most instructors/practitioners don't know, but some do--they may be scattered across different styles, in various countries, but they are out there. We have a number of legitimate instructors teaching material handed down to them through their lineages who include the standing grappling components of kata; Oyata, Odo, Toma, Iha, Maeshiro, Yamashiro, Uehara, Higa, Motobu, and more, just to name a few Okinawans who've been masters in the last 50 years. Do they all teach these things in completely practical ways? No, not always--Japanese formality has snuck into a lot of cultural practices on Okinawa--but you still have a starting point. Add to that the cross-training experiences that they and their students incorporate, and you can find a good bit of solid material, even before you have to start the trial-and-error process, so you should have a reasonable base to work from.

Of course, you're absolutely right about the lack of resistance training. I've known a good number of karateka who will attend bunkai seminars and memorize a bunch of applications to a kata, but never really properly TRAIN them. Sure, they'll perform them by rote against whatever basic attack was initially prescribed, but they don't go beyond that. My Sensei was big on pressure testing and sparring with everything, so that was a mentality he fostered in me, as well, which is why I try to have students do so many different types of sparring. The grappling components need to be focused on with sparring specifically for them to really develop a good working understanding of how to use them, of course, and then you can integrate it into other types of sparring.

I do think that more and more people are moving to the more practical approach for karate, even if it's still a tiny fraction of the overall karate community. My hope is that it will continue to grow, but unfortunately I think there really needs to be a solid competitive aspect to really foster that, and we really don't have one, yet. Karate competitions are a joke, and even the full-contact ones don't incorporate any of the kata methods, really. Kudo/Daido Juku is full-contact and allows grappling, but it's really just Kyokushin and Judo mixed together, rather than anything to do with the kata methods. MMA is best option for open-ruleset pressure testing that we currently have, but almost nobody joins a karate dojo with aspirations of becoming an MMA fighter, and the idea just isn't fostered by the vast majority of karateka and karate instructors. I've been working on a competition kakedameshi format, because while it is a very limited form of sparring, it is a good way to spar with the standing grappling methods of karate, and if we could get a competition circuit going for it, more karateka would likely participate, which would improve overall awareness of those methods, as well as the overall skill in using them within karate, as a whole. Getting something like that off the ground is tough, though :p
 
i'm sure if i haven't already shared a video of theirs, that someone else has here, but karate culture is working hard to bring back practical karate again, and they supplemented their standing grappling with BJJ which i guess they're also black belts in(assuming so any way) since they apparently also run BJJ classes out of their dojo in san antonio, but they created a FB group to promote their own YT channel and dojo, and there's a good number of like minded people in the group...though as it's grown a lot of bull shitters have snuck in...one real bad bullshitter in particular mark bishop, who is unfortunately there because i inadvertently showed him the way lol
 
i'm sure if i haven't already shared a video of theirs, that someone else has here, but karate culture is working hard to bring back practical karate again, and they supplemented their standing grappling with BJJ which i guess they're also black belts in(assuming so any way) since they apparently also run BJJ classes out of their dojo in san antonio, but they created a FB group to promote their own YT channel and dojo, and there's a good number of like minded people in the group...though as it's grown a lot of bull shitters have snuck in...one real bad bullshitter in particular mark bishop, who is unfortunately there because i inadvertently showed him the way lol

They are brown/purple belts in BJJ, IIRC correctly. I think Aaron was just promoted to brown. They are actually a little too big on the grappling components in their karate, for my taste, but I appreciate what they are doing, nonetheless.

Mark Bishop is an odd one, because his books on Okinawan karate are often recommended because they have a lot of good information in them, but they also have a lot of inaccuracies and bizarre claims in them. Just based on his experience with Motobu Udundi and the other material taught at the Bugeikan, I'm sure he knows a lot, but he definitely isn't a practical martial artist in the sense of developing real fighting skill--his approach more about being healthy as you age and exploring cultural practices, no matter what he says.
 
I know exactly what you mean and these doubts are understandable. Uncovering historical (or "true") Karate bunkai is somewhat archaeological - you dig up old texts and compare structures of kata in various styles, trying to connect these "old bones" into the skeleton of some "common ancestor". :D

Agreed. Kata is a horrible method of skill transmission, and it has failed badly. Whatever we figure out now may never be the original.

But if we do our best to root out the unrealistic, over-compliant crap often seen on kata tournaments and in "traditional" dojos, we are getting closer.
And if we can construct realistic and effective application that actually makes sense for the kata/kihon move -it does not really matter if it is the original bunkai (or Oyo. Bunkai is the analysis process used to figure out the application -oyo). If we then train those applications to a degree that we are proficient with them, then I am content.

If we will never know what is the original, we might as well go with what actually works.

Luckily, we have guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernethy who do this kind of thing and then successfully re-create many of this "common ancestor's" techniques.
The works of those two (especially iain) should be required studying for every karate student -and teacher. I do not agree with them on everything they teach, but close enough.
 
They are brown/purple belts in BJJ, IIRC correctly. I think Aaron was just promoted to brown. They are actually a little too big on the grappling components in their karate, for my taste, but I appreciate what they are doing, nonetheless.

Mark Bishop is an odd one, because his books on Okinawan karate are often recommended because they have a lot of good information in them, but they also have a lot of inaccuracies and bizarre claims in them. Just based on his experience with Motobu Udundi and the other material taught at the Bugeikan, I'm sure he knows a lot, but he definitely isn't a practical martial artist in the sense of developing real fighting skill--his approach more about being healthy as you age and exploring cultural practices, no matter what he says.
Ya mark bishop thinks that if you grab an attacker by the throat while they swing a sword/bat/pipe at you their momentum will instantly cease lol
Since he claims to teach people to fight and defend themselves I label him a fraud. Most of his ‘books’ are published through a PDF publishing website that will slap its name on any thing as best as I can tell

As for the KC guys, I think they may be a bit heavier on grappling than karate historically ever was, but I believe it was funakoshi who said that karate should evolve as times change
 
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I believe it was funakoshi who said that karate should evolve as times change
I don't remember the exact quote but I read in his autobiography something along the lines of "the Karate of today is different from the Karate I was taught in my youth - but that is completely natural and is to be expected".

The horrible irony is that whenever you come to a "traditional" dojo with Funakoshi's picture on the wall, the senseis always say "we want to PRESERVE the old ways" - as if Karate should be jarred and pickled and put on a shelf for all to admire, instead of being practical as intended by all the old masters...
 
I don't remember the exact quote but I read in his autobiography something along the lines of "the Karate of today is different from the Karate I was taught in my youth - but that is completely natural and is to be expected".

The horrible irony is that whenever you come to a "traditional" dojo with Funakoshi's picture on the wall, the senseis always say "we want to PRESERVE the old ways" - as if Karate should be jarred and pickled and put on a shelf for all to admire, instead of being practical as intended by all the old masters...

I remember a quote from one of the shotokan pioneers. One of the really big names -unfortunately I have forgotten who. It might have been Enoeda, it might have been Kanazawa or even Egami. Eiter way he was asked in an interview how much bunkai he did in his youth. he replied "none, we did not do it at all as students", asked how he learned the bunkai he now taught he replied (paraphrased) that he made them up on the spot when asked by a student reagrding a particular move.
mabuni-grapple-quote.jpg
 
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Solid documentation in the form of explanatory manuals would have been nice between 1800-1900, but the Japanese and okinawans did things much differently than the West unfortunately.

At the very least explanation of interpretation of kata should have been explained to more than one or two students per instructor

That's the hing though. The Japanese do have Jiu Jitsu manuals of many different ryu from around the time of Karate.

I think the problem with Karate in particular is because a lot of karate practitioners/instructors died as a result of WW2 (during the invasion of Okinawa and the aftermath of it). No one has really done a study on the numbers of karateka that perished but I remember reading there was a significant brain drain as a result of the war. I remember reading for example that up to and many years after the war Chojun Miyagi for example only had less than a handful of students - on many occasions the only student turning up was An'ichi Miyagi (one of Morio Higaonna's teachers) for a long time. I remember Funakoshi commenting on how many of his senior students perished during the war also. I think the brain drain is very understated.

Judo for example didn't really suffer the same kind of brain drain and it's also interesting to see that they have no issues with their kata.


I know exactly what you mean and these doubts are understandable. Uncovering historical (or "true") Karate bunkai is somewhat archaeological - you dig up old texts and compare structures of kata in various styles, trying to connect these "old bones" into the skeleton of some "common ancestor". :D

Luckily, we have guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernethy who do this kind of thing and then successfully re-create many of this "common ancestor's" techniques. The foundation is of course The Bubishi - the so-called "Bible of Karate", a Kung Fu manual studied and revered by most (if not all) of the original Karate masters. Application of Karate kata can often be traced directly to techniques of The Bubishi - and that's a start!


https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/bubishi-–-karate’s-most-important-text

As for application in sparring - well, obviously with WKF rules this is impossible. But I am optimistic. I do believe that a new martial arts era is upon us. The popularity of MMA has put a lot of pressure on TMAs for MMA-like rules, MMA-like practices, MMA-like applications. Karate doesn't have to borrow these from MMA - it already has them in the Kata, they just need to be pulled out of obscurity and back on the mat. :)

PS. Just yesterday I passed a new Aikido dojo called "Ultimate Aiki", marketing itself as "Aikido with elements of MMA". See, the revolution has already begun! ;)


Yes guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernathy are very much needed. But I feel like many of these techniques need to be applied in a free sparring sense - to see whether they actually hold up or not.

I think karate has borrowed from MMA - as far as inspiration goes in uncovering techniques and I feel this should be clearly stated. There's nothing wrong with it - Karate Culture for example finding inspiration from MMA.

The bubishi in all honesty is very unclear as far as manuals go. I have a copy of Patrick McCarthy's Bubishi translated book - and it's confusing to say the least.

I think what would go the longest way in uncovering kata application and understanding them - is for instructors to broaden their experience. Knowing grappling or another weapons art should be a start. It's surprising how often many karate instructors don't have either of these tools - it would go a long way to uncovering kata.
 
Agreed. Kata is a horrible method of skill transmission, and it has failed badly. Whatever we figure out now may never be the original.

Again I don't think kata is a horrible method of transmission.

Judo hasn't had any issues. Nor have other styles.

Karate instructors have done a terrible job transmiting the applications of kata - that's the honest truth.

My guess is because they probably weren't aware of it themselves.

It's inevitable in the spread of an art - there will be a loss of information or transmission - especially in regards to Karate (no internet back then, no video, no way to confirm the truth of what you were actually learning etc) and there was no organized method of transmission. No commission or organization to oversee quality/consistency. It was the wild wild east.

Judo on the other hand did a much better job of organizing transmission because Kano centralized everything. Karate on the other had no such structure. I think that probably played a huge part in the poor transmission of kata.
 
That's the hing though. The Japanese do have Jiu Jitsu manuals of many different ryu from around the time of Karate.

I think the problem with Karate in particular is because a lot of karate practitioners/instructors died as a result of WW2 (during the invasion of Okinawa and the aftermath of it). No one has really done a study on the numbers of karateka that perished but I remember reading there was a significant brain drain as a result of the war. I remember reading for example that up to and many years after the war Chojun Miyagi for example only had less than a handful of students - on many occasions the only student turning up was An'ichi Miyagi (one of Morio Higaonna's teachers) for a long time. I remember Funakoshi commenting on how many of his senior students perished during the war also. I think the brain drain is very understated.

Judo for example didn't really suffer the same kind of brain drain and it's also interesting to see that they have no issues with their kata.




Yes guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernathy are very much needed. But I feel like many of these techniques need to be applied in a free sparring sense - to see whether they actually hold up or not.

I think karate has borrowed from MMA - as far as inspiration goes in uncovering techniques and I feel this should be clearly stated. There's nothing wrong with it - Karate Culture for example finding inspiration from MMA.

The bubishi in all honesty is very unclear as far as manuals go. I have a copy of Patrick McCarthy's Bubishi translated book - and it's confusing to say the least.

I think what would go the longest way in uncovering kata application and understanding them - is for instructors to broaden their experience. Knowing grappling or another weapons art should be a start. It's surprising how often many karate instructors don't have either of these tools - it would go a long way to uncovering kata.
i think the biggest issue was that a teacher would only teach bunkai of kata to one or two students every decade or so...that combined with many of those students dying during WWII probably is the biggest issue.
 
Again I don't think kata is a horrible method of transmission.

Judo hasn't had any issues. Nor have other styles.

Karate instructors have done a terrible job transmiting the applications of kata - that's the honest truth.

My guess is because they probably weren't aware of it themselves.

It's inevitable in the spread of an art - there will be a loss of information or transmission - especially in regards to Karate (no internet back then, no video, no way to confirm the truth of what you were actually learning etc) and there was no organized method of transmission. No commission or organization to oversee quality/consistency. It was the wild wild east.

Judo on the other hand did a much better job of organizing transmission because Kano centralized everything. Karate on the other had no such structure. I think that probably played a huge part in the poor transmission of kata.
karate also had 4 different styles, where as judo had only one style so that was a hurdle kano didn't have to deal with...also he was the creator of judo, none of his contemporaries could claim to be the creator of karate...it would have been nearly impossible to centralize all of karate...goju seems to have been very different from the other styles running around okinawa for example.
 
don't really want to start a whole new thread so i'll just drop this here.
a goju tournament, kumite is heavy/full contact with head punches, sweeps/throws/trips, etc. kumite starts about 1:26





i'm going to try to find the rule set they use i like it. from what i've seen looks like how we sparred in my dojo when i was younger, but we didn't have a formal rule set...basic gentlemen rules, and the rest you just kind of understood from watching the seniors spar, and if you did something uncool either your partner or an instructor would tell you 'none of that now' or something like that.
 
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Yes guys like Patrick McCarthy and Iain Abernathy are very much needed. But I feel like many of these techniques need to be applied in a free sparring sense - to see whether they actually hold up or not.

I think karate has borrowed from MMA - as far as inspiration goes in uncovering techniques and I feel this should be clearly stated. There's nothing wrong with it - Karate Culture for example finding inspiration from MMA.

The bubishi in all honesty is very unclear as far as manuals go. I have a copy of Patrick McCarthy's Bubishi translated book - and it's confusing to say the least.

I think what would go the longest way in uncovering kata application and understanding them - is for instructors to broaden their experience. Knowing grappling or another weapons art should be a start. It's surprising how often many karate instructors don't have either of these tools - it would go a long way to uncovering kata.

Just to throw this out there, I know that Iain has his students spar with kata applications pretty extensively, and it's something I harp on when I teach, as well. He is sure to hit on the importance of pressure testing in his seminars, and likes to say "if you haven't done it live, you haven't done it." I can't speak to Patrick McCarthy's sparring methodologies, specifically, but I do know a number of his Koryu Uchinadi branch dojo do MMA-style sparring, and are typically open about having been inspired by MMA. I'm also a big proponent of cross-training, as you mention--it's a longstanding karate tradition.

I definitely agree that the Bubishi is not nearly as "enlightening" as a lot of karateka seem to think it is. It has some interesting tidbits, and the illustrations can be nice for inspiration and comparison, but overall I didn't find it nearly as useful as most of the books in my collection. I think a lot of people tend to be enraptured by the idea of a mysterious, ancient text that contains all the secrets of something, if you just study it enough.
 
Just to throw this out there, I know that Iain has his students spar with kata applications pretty extensively, and it's something I harp on when I teach, as well. He is sure to hit on the importance of pressure testing in his seminars, and likes to say "if you haven't done it live, you haven't done it." I can't speak to Patrick McCarthy's sparring methodologies, specifically, but I do know a number of his Koryu Uchinadi branch dojo do MMA-style sparring, and are typically open about having been inspired by MMA. I'm also a big proponent of cross-training, as you mention--it's a longstanding karate tradition.

I definitely agree that the Bubishi is not nearly as "enlightening" as a lot of karateka seem to think it is. It has some interesting tidbits, and the illustrations can be nice for inspiration and comparison, but overall I didn't find it nearly as useful as most of the books in my collection. I think a lot of people tend to be enraptured by the idea of a mysterious, ancient text that contains all the secrets of something, if you just study it enough.

I think part of the issue with the Bubishi is the lack of context (not really any extensive readable explanations of diagrams) and some dubious looking techniques. Some of the stuff in the book is clearly effective like the scissor leg takedown. So it's interesting seeing clearly visible techniques that are outside of basic techniques (advanced & not really that common) turning up in a very ancient martial arts text.

The bigger issue is that the book is littered with effective and dubious techniques which makes me question who actually authored it. There doesn't really seem to be any real mention of the bubishi as an important martial arts manual as well in China - as far as I know. It wasn't required reading which makes me think it might have been some random ancient text written in relative obscurity.

Was it really that fundamental to Karate is what I suppose I'm trying to get at? I know Chojun Miyagi was very fond of the text. But I'm not sure that it really was that fundamental to karate. I think it's something that some instructors carried around and maybe drew some inspiration from - like we might draw inspiration from something we read on the internet or a book we come across.

I feel like context matters here - the Bubishi might have been very useful in an era where you had to physically acquire books to get hold of information or rely on 1-2-1 communication. I think that might be the only reason why the Bubishi is still talked about in Karate circles because it was one of the very few martial arts manuals that instructors were able to get a hold of that had some relationship to Karate.

I agree I don't find it nowhere as useful as some of the other books I have. It would be towards the bottom of my list if I'm honest.

I know that Patrick McCarthy's group spar MMA style (it's great that they do) but I'm not so sure that the same applies with Iain Abernathy's group. I haven't really seen any of his guys spar with kata applications - at least from what is available online. All I've really seen is drills - which are great but no real replacement for live sparring where anything goes.
 
scissor leg takedown.
U mean stuff like hooking opponent's leg/ legs while falling with intent and take leg/ legs like in scissors to take a guy down?
Shotokan have it, one example was in bunkai by Andre Bertel.
 
karate also had 4 different styles
Karate already had a lot more than that . The "4 big styles" only ever referred to the style organizations that joined together 1957 and founded what today is JKF. Several of the styles that was not part of the JKF (either due to their own choice or pointedly not being invited) was actually bigger than some of the ones that was. It was all just about politics and business -as usual.
 
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