Judo throws and sweeps in BJJ

[PointyShinyBurn]

I regularly throw people who adopt the 'wrestling posture' with O soto gari. We don't really have any wrestlers in the UK so can't say if my O soto would 'work' against a wrestler, but the defensive posture of bent over at the waist arms out etc... associated with wrestling is relatively simple to overcome with O soto gari.

And I can easily double leg anyone who stands up straight like a Judoka (as long as they don't know any Judo). It's a very rare throw at any reasonable level of BJJ and wrestling for a reason.

 

[JudokaUK]

And I can easily double leg anyone who stands up straight like a Judoka (as long as they don't know any Judo). It's a very rare throw at any reasonable level of BJJ and wrestling for a reason.

Not with their grips set you can't pre-grip yes, grips set, no.

 

[Adriano**]

Adriano, are you talking about the takedown/trip that Leo Vieira shows @ 7:30 in this video?

Shemhazai its very similar nice find! The set up is the same I usually take it from the arm drag. The differance is I attack with the opposite foot in the inside and plant it or gake it and take the throw on a 45 degree angle which creates severe pressure on the knee the very least that someone will come out with is a bloody nose. It's near impossible to properly brake fall because you cant roll out of it and I throw all of my weight onto my opponent.

Uchi Mata at the level I am competiting at at my career winning matters and no one gives in easy I wouldn't ask for you not to break my arm the same goes for everyone else because even if we are friends in competition were not and I would break your arm then shake your hand after it. I play the game and the game is to win.

 

[Adriano**]

Rod1 thanks for the support I don't get the hate either my opponent is trying to win against me and will do anything legal to win I am simply playing by the rules and playing to win.

All of my opponents have the choice to compete against me and most know I play hard and play to win most black belts will break your arm and not think twice about it if you dont tap or if they get the chance theyll put it on before you can tap so there is no escape.

People know who I am who knew Kevin sure allot hold it against me what I did but most understand.

 

[Thrawn33]

How effective is sumi gaeshi in competition? I've seen it used a few times in MMA, but I haven't really seen it in Judo or BJJ competition. I see a lot more Tomo nage's though.

It's basically a butterfly guard sweep from standing. I noticed they drilled it a ton on the BJJ Fight Quest episode.

Glad you asked

 

[Blue Streak]

Here's a very good link on the Osoto Makikomi by a former Olympian, and in general it should help on defeating the stiff arm. Generally, if you have a stiff-arm held tight against you its very hard to push right through it if you maintain good posture, but very easy to "rotate" into it and collapse the arm. Imagine they have a typical lapel grip on your left lapel. All you have to do is twist clockwise while you push in, like you are trying to make shoulder/torso impact with their left pectoral. Start by asking someone to hold you in a tight stiff-arm stance and just rotate, you;ll see how stupid easy it is to cross up their arms and collapse them. Then work into rotating while closing the distance and before you know it you're tight against them with their lapel hand uselessly pinned to their torso and in a perfect position for a variety of throws.

Episode 22 - Makikomi and Variations : Super Judo TV - v2.0

Great video! Thanks for posting.

 

[Alaskantkdkid]

Am I the only person who noticed that this thread was necro'd by a first post white belt?

 

[Knock Out Ned]

Also i doubt Leo Vieria is "olympic level" and he hit an ippon seoi nage NOGI in ADCC 2011

He has some badass Judo though.At a KBJJF competition here a couple of years ago, he had a superfight against an opponent flown in from Japan.I remember him doing some cool throws.

 

[The judo bull]

morote gari,uki waza,kata guruma,seo otoshi,tani otoshi !

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Not with their grips set you can't pre-grip yes, grips set, no.

You're missing my point. I'm sure you can throw people who don't know how to do tachiwaza however they choose to stand. That someone bent over and stiff-arming is easy for you to throw has little-to-no bearing on whether that throw is easy to do in actual competition against the non-clueless.

What you said was the equivalent of "I don't know any boxers, but when people stand with their hands up in front of their face I can hit them with uppercuts pretty easily."

 

[Carrera26]

Well, part of the point is that if they are bent over and stiff-arming, by definition they don't know how to handle themselves on their feet. Nobody who has had real take-down training is going to voluntarily give their opponent huge control over their body, negate most of their own offensive capability, and destroy their base by choice.

It's the equivalent of the white belt "headlock 'o death" from bottom. Hard for beginners to deal with, not tough for the experienced to overcome, and really doesn't do anything positive for the person holding the headlock.

 

[zegrapplez]

based on the bent over posture you'll find more often in bjj tournaments, uchimata, ankle pick (kibisu gaeshi or called something else i think) and sumi gaeshi are my highest percentage throws in bjj.

occasionally in a scramble/in nogi i'll hit a big haraigoshi with a bodylock or an over/under grip

 

[Rod1]

And I can easily double leg anyone who stands up straight like a Judoka (as long as they don't know any Judo). It's a very rare throw at any reasonable level of BJJ and wrestling for a reason.

BJJ is done with a gi, wrestling is done without a gi, an over arm and over shoulder grip is MASSIVE in Judo, in wrestling its nothing, its asking to be picked up.

So seriously, dont put wrestling and BJJ in the same context, they are entirely different sports.

BJJ = gi = Judo.

 

[JudokaUK]

You're missing my point. I'm sure you can throw people who don't know how to do tachiwaza however they choose to stand. That someone bent over and stiff-arming is easy for you to throw has little-to-no bearing on whether that throw is easy to do in actual competition against the non-clueless.

The throw isn't easy to do on someone non-clueless, that was my point.

However, I've thrown Judo black belts, in competition, who've attempted to defend my O soto by shifting their hips and legs back. Admittedly recreational black belts, but black belts none the less.

So my point was that sufficient concerted practice under competent supervision will allow you to utilisie the two throws mentioned- O soto and Ippon seoi against a variety of defences, postures and styles of play.

However, you are deeply unlikely to encounter this level of training in your average BJJ club. Hence why I argued they are inappropriate as first throws for BJJ-ers with limited throw practice time and or inclination.

What you said was the equivalent of "I don't know any boxers, but when people stand with their hands up in front of their face I can hit them with uppercuts pretty easily."

I made distinctions between the 'wrestling stance' which in of itself is supposed to stop the throw and an actual wrestler.

Also as Rod1 has pointed out the gi changes things for a wrestler.

As I said in my initial reply to you, from a distance a wrestler is still in his element able to shoot etc... Once grips are established and set he's very much out of his element unless experienced in the gi. The same applies even more so for BJJ-ers who've only been trained in wrestling style takedowns. Once you set grips on them they are even more limited in what they can do and even more outclassed. Thus being easy to throw with whatever of which O soto is a very viable option.

I have done Judo against an American guy who self-identified as being a 'wrestler', but it was only high school and he wasn't much cop. So I just wrote him off as being a recreational practitioner at a low level school. And therefore my ability to throw him not having much bearing on the whole Judo vs wrestling thing. Much the same way as a 3rd XV player at a minor public school might be a 'rugby player' but doesn't mean they are a Tiger's academy graduate.

 

[shouldercharge]

I think all the throws are legit. The problem is how the sport is practiced as well as the ranks.

A black belt in judo is attained fairly easily compared to say a black belt in bjj.

In terms of take down ability, a LOT of college level wrestlers are as good at takedowns as brown belts are in BJJ.


In terms of take down ability relative to those wrestlers, I'd say a lot of guys who just got their judo black belt casually are as good at takedowns as blue belts are at bjj.

Of course there are olympic calibur judokas that have better takedowns, but the problem is that because of how easily belts are attained, it is hard to discern when/who is at that level other than seeing people actually wrestle.

you have clearly been exposed to some crappy judoka or are bull shitting.i dont think there is any correlation between bjj belt level and takedown skills as so many bjj practitioners do no takedown training at all
.if you were going to compare the average judo shodan to an average bjj practitioner then i think you'd be looking more at purple belt.
pretty much only competitive bjj practitioners are going to spend any time doing take downs and even then they may spend 1/4 of there time training takedowns if im being generous and very little of that time will be sparring for the takedown.
so take a fresh shodan has probably been training for 5 years at a school that does a lot of newaza so even being conservative
they would spend half the time
doing stand up with lots of randori so to do similar amounts of stand up you'd be looking at ten years training.
granted we're talking about takedowns under bjj ruleset so less gripping restrictions and easier to
use singles and doubles wich would put the judoka at a disadvantage so even under bjj rules id say an average newly black belted judoka should be able to get the takedown against most purples.

 

[shouldercharge]

and also i find osoto gari works well in bjj.for what its worth im only a bjj white belt in bjj and blue in judo i compete in both.ive been training both for a bit over 2 years although judo FAR more consistantly and it is my main focus. i honestly dont think you can estimate anyones take down ability based on rank in bjj as it is so common for bjj practitionners to have 0 takedown game.if you were saying bjj blue belts were comparable to judo blacks then that would be a fair comparison.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Good rule of thumb: BB in Judo is about the same level in Judo as a purple is in BJJ. 3rd Dan in Judo is about where a BB in BJJ is. That's based mostly on the amount of time it takes to achieve those ranks.

 

[shouldercharge]

yeah i would agree hence why i'd say an average judoka would be better than an average puple belt when it comes to take downs and certainly better than a blue belt.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

However, I've thrown Judo black belts, in competition, who've attempted to defend my O soto by shifting their hips and legs back. Admittedly recreational black belts, but black belts none the less.

Did you land in a BJJ-appropriate way, when you did those throws? Or did you reach over the top and score the ippon while giving access to your back?

So my point was that sufficient concerted practice under competent supervision will allow you to utilisie the two throws mentioned- O soto and Ippon seoi against a variety of defences, postures and styles of play.

I agree about seio nage, but I disagree that o-soto is a high percentage throw in BJJ comp however good at it you are. I have seen good Judoka toss people around, but I haven't seen them landing o-soto-gari very much.

As I said in my initial reply to you, from a distance a wrestler is still in his element able to shoot etc... Once grips are established and set he's very much out of his element unless experienced in the gi. The same applies even more so for BJJ-ers who've only been trained in wrestling style takedowns. Once you set grips on them they are even more limited in what they can do and even more outclassed. Thus being easy to throw with whatever of which O soto is a very viable option.

This whole 'clueless BJJ players' thing only applies up to a certain level. Once you get to purple belt anyone who chooses to plays take-downs with you will be good at them. Those who play Judo will be good Judo players, those who want to shoot for your legs will be good at killing your grips so they can do so. Watch Sergio Moraes, for example, there is a style of play specific to BJJ that takes from Judo and wrestling though it isn't really either and it doesn't include very much o-soto.

 

[Shemhazai]

Anybody do the reverse seoi nage/reverse arm spin for BJJ? I was taught this by a friend who's a really good Greco wrestler (he does it no gi, obviously, entering from the outside off an arm drag), and I understand that it's become popular among some of the top competitive judoka in the last few years, especially the Koreans. I've never gone for it in sparring, but I've drilled it a bit, and can see it as being safer for the thrower in BJJ than a conventional seoi, with less risk of having one's back taken.

Here's an example of the no gi application: