Judo or Wrestling for self defence

[Pro Killer]

Translation for the thread replies

1. You should do Judo because you don't have to go to the ground when completing a throw so you can escape quickly and also if you do wish to go to the ground they have subs.
What he really means "Do Judo, Because that is what I do and I need to feel secure that I made the right choice"

2. Do Wrestling because you don't have to go to the ground with Greco style Takedowns, You don't need the gi to pull off takedowns like Judo and Wrestlers are better conditioned!
What he really means "Do Wrestling, Because it's what I do and I need to feel secure that I made the right choice"

 

[Pro Killer]

Oh yea My Pick, Do Wrestling Because I think it's better suited for self-defence.
What I really mean "Do Wrestling because that is what I hope to be starting soon, So I have the incline to favour it having no experience in Judo"

 

[georgejjr]

HMMM I thought I pretty much "ended thread" with my post.

Ok lets try this again.


Judo and wrestling are far more similar than they are different.

Takedowns- Wrestling and Judo are by far the best arts when it comes to bringing an opponent to the ground. IF you are taking the art for self defense then there are things you are going to have to work on either way. With Judo you will have to work on getting grips and setting up throws without the benefit of a thick long sleeved jacket if you dont live in a very cold year round climate.
If wrestling I would suggest working on a more upright stance as seen in Greco roman. You have several options available even if you are not a greco roman wrestler as any good wrestling club/school will teach you throws ANF leg attacks.

Top Control- Both of these arts have an excellent top control game. Both can use pins to smother and overwhelm an opponent. An excellent pin can be devastating and provide secure control if you want to beat on an opponent (Lesnar/Mir)

Bottom- Both styles have answers for being taken down. In Judo you will see a guard game (hopefully) and in wrestling you will see a referees position game(turtle). Both are more than enough to handle a person on the street with no training.

Submissions- Judo has submissions built in. Not to the level of a BJJ player but they are there. Again some of your techs, especially chokes, may have to be modified or discard all together depending on where you are and what the climate is.

Wrestling doesnt have submissions per se but several of the holds are easily used as compliance holds or submissions. Double top wristlock, chicken wings, neck cranks. Also the "sleeper hold" RNC, even a monkey can do not to mention ground and pound.

Scrambling from the bottom is the thing I see wrestling excel at. Judo would have a different approach such as sweep or submission, a wrestler would escape of reverse.


So in reality both are excellent for a clinch based style. Judo is relatively cheap to take, wrestling is free if you are in HS.

Good Luck

Good post, except for needing a very cold climate all year round for judo. In most of Canada people wear jackets all but a couple of months of the year at night ... it doesn't have to be very cold, even around 50 F people tend to put on jackets, and that's anything but very cold. Slightly cool is enough for jackets to come out.

 

[knoxpk]

Good post, except for needing a very cold climate all year round for judo. In most of Canada people wear jackets all but a couple of months of the year at night ... it doesn't have to be very cold, even around 50 F people tend to put on jackets, and that's anything but very cold. Slightly cool is enough for jackets to come out.

I would like to amend my post to reflect that as long as the clothing is strong enough not to tear or come off then you can still apply many of the throws and chokes Judo has to offer.

 

[knoxpk]

No, you didn't end the thread at all, since, again, you're using the argument on weather. Once again, I stress, it is very simple to change the grips for with a gi to without.

Seriously? if it is not practiced on a regular basis then it is not as natural to the thrower. Off balancing is different without the jacket. Also how are you going to "modify" the chokes that rely on the gi.

I Did amend my post to reflect that as long as the clothes are thick enough and dont tear they are usaeble.

I live in Florida..its about 95 degree right now and 70's during the fall and winter. Light tshirts/tank tops etc are the norm.

I also noticed that the judo guys I have grappled with like to and are able to throw from a greater distance than what I was comfortable with. BUT on the other side of the coin they werent too happy when I was in "clinch range" either.

I do agree that the grips can be altered but not without practice.

 

[georgejjr]

No, you didn't end the thread at all, since, again, you're using the argument on weather. Once again, I stress, it is very simple to change the grips for with a gi to without.

They certainly can be modified - the Soviets did it both ways, bringing judo throws into wrestling and wrestling takedowns into judo. But the whole point of alive training (ie combat sport sparring of any kind) is that you get good at what you actually practice, not what works in theory.

Most judoka spend very little time working on no-gi randori. Most wrestlers spend very little time scrimmaging with jackets on. That both can in theory be modified for both gi and no-gi means little if time isn't spent practicing under those conditions.

I'll add though that almost every competitive wrestler and judoka is going to have almost no trouble throwing/takedowning anyone who has never grappled whether they're wearing a jacket or not, which is 99% of what you're going to encounter on the street. The problem that wrestlers, judokas, and every other combat discipline is going to run into is multiple attackers with weapons ... recognizing a bad situation and getting out of Dodge fast is still by far the best form of self defense.

 

[JerkWeed]

Where exactly do people think wrestling and Judo come from anyway?

The roots of both sports go back to techniques which were developed for combat troops in the ancient world.

Yet there will always be someone who assumes a competent grappler or striker couldn't cope with a non-athlete who knows how to football kick the groin of another slow moving person.

 

[o'dubhlaoich]

They certainly can be modified - the Soviets did it both ways, bringing judo throws into wrestling and wrestling takedowns into judo. But the whole point of alive training (ie combat sport sparring of any kind) is that you get good at what you actually practice, not what works in theory.

Most judoka spend very little time working on no-gi randori. Most wrestlers spend very little time scrimmaging with jackets on. That both can in theory be modified for both gi and no-gi means little if time isn't spent practicing under those conditions.

I'll add though that almost every competitive wrestler and judoka is going to have almost no trouble throwing/takedowning anyone who has never grappled whether they're wearing a jacket or not, which is 99% of what you're going to encounter on the street. The problem that wrestlers, judokas, and every other combat discipline is going to run into is multiple attackers with weapons ... recognizing a bad situation and getting out of Dodge fast is still by far the best form of self defense.

Please show me a martial art that shows you how to deal with multiple attackers with weapons

 

[georgejjr]

Please show me a martial art that shows you how to deal with multiple attackers with weapons

Well, that's my point. Note I said any combat discipline (used the term instead of martial art to avoid long arguments over whether wrestling and boxing etc are martial arts) is going to have trouble with that, so you're better off just getting out of there before the trouble starts.

Look, perhaps depending upon where you live, most self-defense situations aren't one on one fights where you test your skills. The problem with a thread like this is that its easy to forget that a real encounter is likely going to involve a bunch of guys, carrying knives and even firearms. One guy taking on a group like that works in demos and Kung-fu movies, but is very low percentage in real life ... getting out of there before it develops is much higher percentage.

 

[DaRuckus337]

You want 'self defense'? Take up track, buy a gun, or learn some common sense and avoid dangerous situations. Judo, wrestling, bjj, muay thai, karate, wing chun, etc. aren't the best way to save yourself in potentially life-threatening situations. Running fast, shooting straight, and knowing how to avoid trouble to begin with are all far more effective.

 

[zige79]

You want 'self defense'? Take up track, buy a gun, or learn some common sense and avoid dangerous situations. Judo, wrestling, bjj, muay thai, karate, wing chun, etc. aren't the best way to save yourself in potentially life-threatening situations. Running fast, shooting straight, and knowing how to avoid trouble to begin with are all far more effective.

What he said

 

[Tropics1020]

I just watched Karo Parysian vs. Diego Sanchez the other day..any between the two i'd rather have Karo's skill set. Even though Diego won that fight he got caught with some throws that would have rendered him unable to continue if that fight were on the street.

 

[esl21]

Seriously? if it is not practiced on a regular basis then it is not as natural to the thrower. Off balancing is different without the jacket. Also how are you going to "modify" the chokes that rely on the gi.

I Did amend my post to reflect that as long as the clothes are thick enough and dont tear they are usaeble.

I live in Florida..its about 95 degree right now and 70's during the fall and winter. Light tshirts/tank tops etc are the norm.

I also noticed that the judo guys I have grappled with like to and are able to throw from a greater distance than what I was comfortable with. BUT on the other side of the coin they werent too happy when I was in "clinch range" either.

I do agree that the grips can be altered but not without practice.

Its more natural then you may think. Its not like I'll go to grab the sleeve at the elbow and go "Hark! He's not wearing a gi! I'm screwed!". Sure, it may not be 100% as natural, but its not nearly enough of a factor to negate Judo throws. I find it strange that I have to defend Judo because I am a wrestler and have never even done 1 hour of pure Judo. I recognize that both arts have advantages and disadvantages, and I also recognize that clothing is not a factor that will negate throws in either art.

Off balancing is really not that different. I learned the exact same off balancing in wrestling as I did from my BJJ coach (who had a Judo background) with the only difference being a gi. Instead of grabbing the wrist, I grab the sleeve.

If the attacker is wearing a t-shirt, I'll use that, and it will in fact be easier for me. If hes not wearing one, then I'll go to another technique. Thats good you amended it, and this is why here I stated that if he wasn't wearing one, or if it even tore, than I would go to something else.

The thing about going against Judokas is that you don't know how good they are at maneuvering their hips on the inside. You may be able to Henderson them, and totally bully them in the deep clinch, but I still wouldn't at all recommend that considering their skill in off balancing. Honestly, my biggest trouble against Judokas as been on that outside range as well, especially if they grab my sleeves. My wrestler brain goes "what is this I don't even..." BAM. So I avoid doing more than head snaps/other setups from wrist control.

I'll add though that almost every competitive wrestler and judoka is going to have almost no trouble throwing/takedowning anyone who has never grappled whether they're wearing a jacket or not, which is 99% of what you're going to encounter on the street.

Yeah, that is a good point. It really wont make a difference. I am going to perhaps overextend myself and say that, if you come from a MT background, Judo will be great for you considering that you will already be comfortable in the clinch.

Please show me a martial art that shows you how to deal with multiple attackers with weapons

Gun Fu.

 

[Thrawn33]

You want 'self defense'? Take up track, buy a gun, or learn some common sense and avoid dangerous situations. Judo, wrestling, bjj, muay thai, karate, wing chun, etc. aren't the best way to save yourself in potentially life-threatening situations. Running fast, shooting straight, and knowing how to avoid trouble to begin with are all far more effective.

Growing up a bit helps too. When I took Judo and wrestling I never thought about how I'd use it in a self defence situation. Things just kind of clicked at times when needed.

 

[CyberFreq]

I pretty much went through my whole senior year in high school wrestling with a modified judo style. Hop tosses, arm drags, etc. Very rarely did I shoot and not many people liked to clinch with me ever. Only time I found myself on the bad end of a clinch was when it was with a guy about a foot taller than me.

I would say wrestling though because of the mentality to impose your will on the opponent versus judo/bjj which focus on kind of a flow thing.

It's like breaking through a wall vs finding the door a mile away.

 

[Thrawn33]

I would say wrestling though because of the mentality to impose your will on the opponent versus judo/bjj which focus on kind of a flow thing.

It's like breaking through a wall vs finding the door a mile away.

Agree on the wrestling metaphor but disagree with the Judo one.

Wrestling is like breaking through a wall, while Judo is figuring out the right brick to pull out and make the wall collapse on itself. Both take effort and skill, both are effective.

 

[esl21]

I pretty much went through my whole senior year in high school wrestling with a modified judo style. Hop tosses, arm drags, etc. Very rarely did I shoot and not many people liked to clinch with me ever. Only time I found myself on the bad end of a clinch was when it was with a guy about a foot taller than me.

I would say wrestling though because of the mentality to impose your will on the opponent versus judo/bjj which focus on kind of a flow thing.

It's like breaking through a wall vs finding the door a mile away.

I like clinching with taller opponents only if I have a whizzer on one arm, I can control a lot better than. I don't usually go for double unders unless I'm really tight to his body and have strong hips because if he overhooks my arms I feel like I'm susceptible to trips!

 

[knoxpk]

The thing about going against Judokas is that you don't know how good they are at maneuvering their hips on the inside. You may be able to Henderson them, and totally bully them in the deep clinch, but I still wouldn't at all recommend that considering their skill in off balancing. Honestly, my biggest trouble against Judokas as been on that outside range as well, especially if they grab my sleeves. My wrestler brain goes "what is this I don't even..." BAM. So I avoid doing more than head snaps/other setups from wrist control.

That would be assuming I never sparred with Judoka.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Wrestling is like breaking through a wall, while Judo is figuring out the right brick to pull out and make the wall collapse on itself. Both take effort and skill, both are effective.

^^^^^^
Awesome quote.

 

[Jesus X]

Agree on the wrestling metaphor but disagree with the Judo one.

Wrestling is like breaking through a wall, while Judo is figuring out the right brick to pull out and make the wall collapse on itself. Both take effort and skill, both are effective.

damn that's deep dude:icon_chee , both arts are good for the street shit boxing and judo is a game over combo ,boxing and greco or any wrestling style work good too.