Judo or Jiu jitsu?

[judofarmerbob]

OMG what a noob. Your generalizations aren't even true. What does pulling guard have to do with anything? And when you're armbarring someone, in practice you shouldn't try to break it. An armbar can just as easily screw up ligaments as a heel hook if you go nuts with it. Not every punch is a knockout punch. Or do you train to kill people with one strike too? Just because you are saying you aren't close to being the best, doesn't mean you think you're "all that" in your mind, which you act like.

frodo you need to calm down dude. armbars are designed to break people's arms. that doesn't mean that every armbar attempt should be treated as such. at least not in practice.

as for judo throws being better than pulling guard? i'll stand by that.

as far as a good judo player being able to throw most anybody they want? yeah, i'll stand by that too.

i don't even know what a troll means. all i know is that someone spends a bit too much time on the internet ridiculing people who could most likely beat their ass, were said individuals so inclined.

which i'm not, because that would be stupid. because i'm not 12 years old.

oh, and my dick is way, way bigger than yours.

 

[Q mystic]

If no cross training is allowed, I'm with ICHINAMANI.

Although I am passionate about BJJ and it's changed my life for the best, I must say Judo is a better art for ending a street fight (IF BIG IF you also train withut a Gi). The subs aren't as technical, but nobody cranks a sub like a Judo guy period! Plus an experience Judo guy won't let there b any subs. They'll direct the throw so tht the attacker gets maimed/crippled/pralyzed/dead. Just like how in BJJ we can control the degree of the pain/injury of the sub, in Judo we can control he danger level of the throw. If I eeded to, I could kill a man with certain throws and their would be no ground fight.

I ALSO HATE BJJ VS JUDO THREADS! I skippd to page 4 I must admit. CROSS TRAIN BOTH! UFC 1 is over This isnt the 80's. Style vs. style is DEAD. Thank God....


P.S. Judo is a little more well rounded than BJJ. Not better or worse! Just a little more well rounded.It has standup and ground. Most BJJ schols have NO powerful throws. Some takedowns yes, but not many fight-ending throws. And even though Judo guys aren't as technical on the ground. They're stronger and more explosive than "just BJJ guys IN GENERAL" and they crank subs for the BREAK everytime to END the fight. Ask Aoki and Camarillo (no offense Dave, it's actually a compliment! :icon_chee)

Come on Drew. I was hoping for more..:icon_lol:


....'a little more well rounded'...???



...'not as technical on the ground'...???



Of the 3, a good judoka can go to a judo club, a wrestling club OR a bjj club and hang. Either of the others cannot. Just takes longer to become a good judoka, thats all.LOL

Is a wrestler technical on the ground? How would we then compare a wrestlers technical ground ability to that of a judokas in the eyes of bjj?

I, as a judoka, could sub all my wrestling buddies on the ground, but many I wouldnt claim as not as technical. I just had a much, much better sub game than they did. The fact that I HAD to sub them to win would show that they are quite technical nonetheless.

Bjjers sub game is much better than a judokas on the ground and a judokas sub game is much, much, much better than a wrestlers. Yet wrestlers still have wicked highly technical groundwork.

Styles vs styles is of the past for sure, but tell me you wouldn't call a Roger Gracie VS Pavel Nastula fight one that you would love to see as much as Anything else.:icon_lol:


Alot of us freaked out when we heard the rumor of Jimmy Pedro vs Marcelo Garcia in their MMA debut vs each other.

Let us Judoka stop the hate.:icon_lol: Styles vs styles is a fine discussion. Always has been, always will be. Its the fellas that take it way too serious that wreck it.

 

[IChinaManI]

As a practitioner of both judo and a BJJ, I disagree. Only a very few judo clubs approach the submission skills taught in most BJJ clubs. I've been submitting shodans and above since I was a white belt in BJJ. Judo is not as well-rounded as you think.

I've rolled against bjj guys, blues, and purples here and there, and I honestly don't think that you could be subbing good shodans as a white in bjj. I agree that bjj is way more in depth on the ground, and most bjj guys are killers on the ground, but judo guys (atleast around here) aren't gonna be pushovers. Maybe if it was a pure judo sysytem yeah, but many judo guys play games that bjj guys like, like my friend who loves rubberguard is a brown in judo, and subbed a purple in bjj the other day. I really think it depends where, because I know what you're talking about, cause I've subbed black belts who have minimal game in their newaza but are damn good standing. I really think it depends on the circumstance.

Needless to say i agree with most of the guys here, judo vs bjj is stupid, the arts complete each other, why fight against each other. Whatever the TS wants to do, is a good choice. Bjj is awesome, and judo is awesome. Both of them together...? :icon_twis

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Frodo, to be fair, I think that depends on the level of the players. On the ground, average recreational BJJ player>average recreational judo player; there's nothing surprising about that. However, higher level competitive players are something else entirely. The two best shodans known to both of us are not pushovers on the ground.

They aren't pushovers, but there is no way I should be hanging with them. I only have 3 years experience, compared with their 10-20 years of high level wrestling, judo, and their pure size and athletic ability advantages over me. It should be no contest. That I have not only a chance against them, but usually I expect to win rolls with them, well it just validates my opinion. Judoka must train BJJ to get better on the ground. Judo is not a replacement.

 

[Q mystic]

They aren't pushovers, but there is no way I should be hanging with them. I only have 3 years experience, compared with their 10-20 years of high level wrestling, judo, and their pure size and athletic ability advantages over me. It should be no contest. That I have not only a chance against them, but usually I expect to win rolls with them, well it just validates my opinion. Judoka must train BJJ to get better on the ground. Judo is not a replacement.

For bjj comp you mean right?

 

[georgejjr]

Judoka must train BJJ to get better on the ground. Judo is not a replacement.

I completely agree with this. So do a lot of other judoka, including olympians and olympic medalists. And BJJ'ers have to train judo to get better standing ... ask Roger Gracie, who cross trains judo at the Budokwai in England. Neither BJJ nor judo is a complete jacket based grappling system, you need to do both. Add in wrestling (no bias on my part :redface and you've got the no-gi option as well, and a complete grappling system.

I used to think it'd be nice if one system had it all, but actually I think the way it is now works better, and for the same reason that we have physicists, chemists, and biologists instead of general natural scientists (which is what we had 200 years ago ... most scientists tried to know it all) - specialists advance things faster than generalists. I kind of think having BJJ submission specialists, judo throwing specialists, and wrestling takedown specialists will take things further - and for those of us who want to be reasonably good at all of them (no generalist is ever going to be as good as a specialist in his field) we can study from all of them, just like we take physics courses from physics profs, chem courses from chem profs etc.

I think this style vs style thing in grappling is kind of silly ... how often do you hear physicists and biologists arguing over which is the best science?

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

I've rolled against bjj guys, blues, and purples here and there, and I honestly don't think that you could be subbing good shodans as a white in bjj. I agree that bjj is way more in depth on the ground, and most bjj guys are killers on the ground, but judo guys (atleast around here) aren't gonna be pushovers. Maybe if it was a pure judo sysytem yeah, but many judo guys play games that bjj guys like, like my friend who loves rubberguard is a brown in judo, and subbed a purple in bjj the other day. I really think it depends where, because I know what you're talking about, cause I've subbed black belts who have minimal game in their newaza but are damn good standing. I really think it depends on the circumstance.

Needless to say i agree with most of the guys here, judo vs bjj is stupid, the arts complete each other, why fight against each other. Whatever the TS wants to do, is a good choice. Bjj is awesome, and judo is awesome. Both of them together...? :icon_twis

It is the truth. Check my log here and here for older examples. They schooled me standing back then, of course. But on the ground it was like night and day. This wasn't the first time I was disappointed by people from other styles who studied some groundwork. Back then, I was new to martial arts and I had a rather naive view of what black belt meant for those arts. I'm currently a brown in judo too and a purple in BJJ. I think 90% of judo schools have bad groundwork, and 90% of BJJ schools have bad takedowns. They don't even compare. But I do notice more judoka won't cross-train than the other way around. This makes me sad.

 

[zaoh]

I practice both, one covers what the other do not.

 

[Q mystic]

I completely agree with this. So do a lot of other judoka, including olympians and olympic medalists. And BJJ'ers have to train judo to get better standing ... ask Roger Gracie, who cross trains judo at the Budokwai in England. Neither BJJ nor judo is a complete jacket based grappling system, you need to do both. Add in wrestling (no bias on my part :redface and you've got the no-gi option as well, and a complete grappling system.

I used to think it'd be nice if one system had it all, but actually I think the way it is now works better, and for the same reason that we have physicists, chemists, and biologists instead of general natural scientists (which is what we had 200 years ago ... most scientists tried to know it all) - specialists advance things faster than generalists. I kind of think having BJJ submission specialists, judo throwing specialists, and wrestling takedown specialists will take things further - and for those of us who want to be reasonably good at all of them (no generalist is ever going to be as good as a specialist in his field) we can study from all of them, just like we take physics courses from physics profs, chem courses from chem profs etc.

I think this style vs style thing in grappling is kind of silly ... how often do you hear physicists and biologists arguing over which is the best science?

physicists vs biologists vs philosophers vs chemists...astro vs particle...allll the time. Really. Only if you're interested in what they debate about tho.

I agree tho. They (grappling styles) really are just 'training systems' for mma or whatever, if not to each ones own sport.

 

[Q mystic]

It is the truth. Check my log here and here for older examples. They schooled me standing back then, of course. But on the ground it was like night and day. This wasn't the first time I was disappointed by people from other styles who studied some groundwork. Back then, I was new to martial arts and I had a rather naive view of what black belt meant for those arts. I'm currently a brown in judo too and a purple in BJJ. I think 90% of judo schools have bad groundwork, and 90% of BJJ schools have bad takedowns. They don't even compare. But I do notice more judoka won't cross-train than the other way around. This makes me sad.

I hear about as many judoka going to bjj schools as bjjers going to judo tho. Seems even from what I hear.

 

[georgejjr]

I hear about as many judoka going to bjj schools as bjjers going to judo tho. Seems even from what I hear.

Same. Maybe its a US thing that there's not much cross training going on, but in Canada at least its pretty common for judoka to cross train BJJ (and Canada is ranked 25 in the world in judo, the US only 28 :icon_chee). Its also apparently getting to be common in Europe judging by what's been posted in the judo info forum. Suspect its not so common in Japan for cultural reasons, though apparently the Kodokan is doing its usual stick and inviting instructors from BJJ over to teach, and then claiming its judo (they've done that since its foundation ... did it with the Soviets when they added wrestling moves etc).

 

[Q mystic]

Same. Maybe its a US thing that there's not much cross training going on, but in Canada at least its pretty common for judoka to cross train BJJ (and Canada is ranked 25 in the world in judo, the US only 28 :icon_chee). Its also apparently getting to be common in Europe judging by what's been posted in the judo info forum. Suspect its not so common in Japan for cultural reasons, though apparently the Kodokan is doing its usual stick and inviting instructors from BJJ over to teach, and then claiming its judo (they've done that since its foundation ... did it with the Soviets when they added wrestling moves etc).

Well gawdamn georgejrr. Are those stats real?

That would do a plenty good job of explaining things around here. The US with 350 million to Canadas 35 million. I always considered it like the olympics and never really looked into it. 10-1 what I thought. ahahahaahhh

LMAO at the pussies in US judo.:icon_lol:

....geeeeks.

j/k.:icon_lol:

No, I'm not kidding.


I thought the beatdown of us juDokas was all..just... me.


I'm all for judo stealing bjj in japan. I won't bitch. ...and I don't bitch that bjj is evolving from judo and wrestling either. I am sure, at this point, that bjj will soon supercede.

 

[Drew Foster]

generalization. i'm not the best judoka in the world. not even close.

judo throw > pulling guard

and yeah drew, you're trying to break the arm when you're armbarring somebody. that's how that works.

Wow, don't know how I missed this one...

Well I do agree that a throw > than pulling guard. Well unless you're Romulo Barral, Ryan Hall, or a notorious guard player. (yes guys I mentioned Romulo and Ryan in the same setce, just two names that came to mind.) Or unless you just enjoy playing from the bottom. So they canactually be kinda equal. Even though throws look cooler.


On to your other comment: See, people lik you need to wear giant red shirts that say DANGER TO TRAIN OR COMPETE WITH!!

Newsflash Bob (AKA e-thug): The 19 and the early 20th century is over. It's no longer necessary to break someone' arm to prove that you can dominate them. That's why there's a tap system. 99.9% of us who train do it because we love it. Guess what we ca't do wih a broken arm? What we love...

The scariest part is that there are probably a lot of you crazy guys out there. Look, I agree that it's improtant to know how to break an arm and be able to actaully do it. No shit "that's how it works". Because a lot of guys can talk thru a move, but can't do it under pressure. That's why we choose Judo and BJJ.


But to get to the point, and I'll Bold it for you. NO! You're wrong! You are not tryingto beak someone's arm. You're trying to get a submission, not maim someone and ruin the way their arm functions permanently. As Mikey T. sad in another thread, you armbar for the sub, not to ruin someone's month! Where are we Bob, in the warring staes period? Is this Vale Tudo? Jesus Christ! It's 2008. Many people here have jobs that aren't MA related.

I've trained for 13 years and I see guys like you all the time. No self-esteem (probably cause of lack of fiens and pussy) and the only time you feel adequate is when you physically cause someone else pain in the dojo. There is no room for people like you in this martial art/sport. I emphasize sport because that's really what it is now. If I were someobdy who ever hadthe misfortune of competing with you and you broke my arm with no control (probably cause you don't have the skill to have any) I swear I'd break something worse on you.

Now I gotta go grab a Xanax!

Later fellas!

 

[Drew Foster]

Come on Drew. I was hoping for more..:icon_lol:


....'a little more well rounded'...???



...'not as technical on the ground'...???

Maybe it's the Xanax I just took but I'm confused? Are you saying I should have given Judo more credt, or that I should have given BJJ more credit?


I'm just trying to be PC here man:icon_chee

Don't wanna offend anyone on either side of the fence.

Although I do agree that a Judo guy can better adjust to a BJJ gym or a wrestling gym quicker than either of those other two guys could transition between the others, an it's the ame reason that Dave Camarillo ame in and said a few weeks ago. Judo gives you a physical/mental/spiritual base of drive/will/heart/strength/determination that NO other martial art does.

Once again, I'll go grab Xanax/PC Drew and say that I hate BJJ vs. Judo threads and we should just go Hayastan and do both plus SAMBO! :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

 

[IChinaManI]

It is the truth. Check my log here and here for older examples. They schooled me standing back then, of course. But on the ground it was like night and day. This wasn't the first time I was disappointed by people from other styles who studied some groundwork. Back then, I was new to martial arts and I had a rather naive view of what black belt meant for those arts. I'm currently a brown in judo too and a purple in BJJ. I think 90% of judo schools have bad groundwork, and 90% of BJJ schools have bad takedowns. They don't even compare. But I do notice more judoka won't cross-train than the other way around. This makes me sad.

That's too bad, most of the judoka I know have nothing against bjj and are all up for cross-training.

 

[Drew Foster]

That's too bad, most of the judoka I know have nothing against bjj and are all up for cross-training.

Same here.



I guess Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu is just too much for people to handle. In the 70's it was the kung-fu/karate boom. In the 80's it was the Ninja boom. In the 90's it was the BJJ boom. In the 00's, its the MMA boom.

I can't believe any serious martial artist in 2008 wold take a style vs. style argument seriously. I think they can be fun discussions, as long as atthe end of the day nobody takes it personal and we all go away from the mat/computers knowing that all the arguing was in fun, and that cross-training is like sex, absolutley necessary, as much and as often as possible!

the 2 mg Xanax has kicked in!

 

[georgejjr]

Well gawdamn georgejrr. Are those stats real?

No, unofficial ones at Official Judo Information Site at JudoInfo.com, based on IJF athlete rankings. The url is:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=5200

It probably overstates how good weaker countries (like Canada and the US) are, because the top countries have guys who can't make their national teams who would beat most of the folks we have in the top 25 ...

 

[IChinaManI]

Go canada! This is news to me

edit: damn I wish china's male judo wasn't so bad.

 

[Q mystic]

Maybe it's the Xanax I just took but I'm confused? Are you saying I should have given Judo more credt, or that I should have given BJJ more credit?


I'm just trying to be PC here man:icon_chee

Don't wanna offend anyone on either side of the fence.

Although I do agree that a Judo guy can better adjust to a BJJ gym or a wrestling gym quicker than either of those other two guys could transition between the others, an it's the ame reason that Dave Camarillo ame in and said a few weeks ago. Judo gives you a physical/mental/spiritual base of drive/will/heart/strength/determination that NO other martial art does.

Once again, I'll go grab Xanax/PC Drew and say that I hate BJJ vs. Judo threads and we should just go Hayastan and do both plus SAMBO! :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

I woulda suggested that you re-read my post thru the bottom of a bottle but that response was just fine.:icon_lol:

Just trying to weed out more honesty, thats all. Thanks.

 

[Q mystic]

No, unofficial ones at Official Judo Information Site at JudoInfo.com, based on IJF athlete rankings. The url is:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=5200

It probably overstates how good weaker countries (like Canada and the US) are, because the top countries have guys who can't make their national teams who would beat most of the folks we have in the top 25 ...

Dang. Nice link. Thanks.

Look at what the soviets mighta looked like. I mean, wouldnt have been a total there but it seems like they still would have easily surpassed Japan.

Yeah, didn't sound like alot of drama when Gill was vying to rep Canada for a 3rd time.:icon_lol:

China..0 top 25 males, 14 top females...Georgia 13 top males, 0 top females.