Jim Cornette - "Wrestling is Dead."

[AronaBeatsJones]

the problem isn't them, the problem is that the fundamentals of the business have been lost. What should have happened is that the fundamentals should have been kept and adapted and modernised. It has been completely lost.

the comparison is like traditional basketball (Ross, Cornette) and the And1 Mixtape Tour (sports entertainment). And1 abandoned fundamental basketball for flash and flair, and their games don't really mean anything to anyone. who wins who loses, who cares, it's about doing cool shit. NBA/NCAA, people care about the results, there it's about competition, fundamental basketball, a different type of subtle skill (Tim Duncans of the world).

Essentially, it would be like if all the Tim Duncans and Gary Paytons died and instead you got a bunch of Hot Sauces doing some really crazy shit in front of a small gym of people for peanuts. Who's Hot Sauce you might ask, exactly, google him, he's basketball equivalent of the modern wrestler.

Your explanation is excellent, and I completely understand what you mean.

I'm watching the New Japan G1 Climax right now, having subscribed to New Japan World earlier this year and being completely new to the product, it seems like NJPW is exactly the kind of product that Cornette and Ross clamor for: match-after-match, presented completely as a sport, but even for me (and I typically am more accepting of different types of products, especially anything that's the antithesis to WWE, which I feel is a completely garbage product), I do crave angles and promos after being conditioned to them ever since I was born. But to the dedicated puroresu audience, this is the kind of product they want, and that's what they're given.

I feel WWE is on the other end of the spectrum, where angles/promos dominate the product, and the wrestling itself is secondary to that, but the audience is completely conditioned to that kind of wrestling product. And WWE is a business first and foremost, so they have to build their product around what gets the highest quarter hour ratings, and if they determine that putting Rusev and Lana in a lover's quarrel angle with Ziggler and Summer Rae involved is what's going to do the best ratings, then that's what they're going to do, and that's actually more of a depressing commentary on the state of the American wrestling viewership.

But Cornette has historically been aloof and unreasonable when it comes to the modernization of wrestling. Wrestling always evolves. It was legitimate catch-as-catch-can wrestling until Ed "Strangler" Lewis and the Gold Dust Trio started working matches in the 1920s and introduced strikes, then Danno O'Mahony introduced the Irish Whip in the '30s and completely changed the way matches were done. The product that Cornette is most attached to (the '70s) was a modernization of early pro wrestling, and the current product is a continued modernization of the '70s, even if it has become continuous high spots, planchas, superkicks, and poor selling.

 

[My Spot]

It's the wrong people scripting it too. You have soap opera writers trying to write for an entirely different medium, it just doesn't work. The best mic work has always been when guys have had the freedom to improvise and be themselves or themselves as the cartoon characters they imagine. That is totally gone and even punished now.

There's a lot of weird psychology in pro wrestling that people don't really see, and it's just being lost more and more. It's a system that was chaotic but it worked, now it's structured and it's not the same at all and for the worst.

You're right about guys getting punished for getting themselves over. Look no further than Zack Ryder.

 

[Slick_36]

A lot of the guys who work amazing matches in Japan get totally overlooked by the brass in America because the style is so different, it's all about the continuation of the storyline and fitting in as much as possible as opposed to making the best match possible. They want actors who can take a couple bumps as opposed to great wrestlers. Though that seems to have changed with guys like Punk, Daniels, and Rollins. In the sense that they're great wrestlers being pushed.

 

[BAM]

Your explanation is excellent, and I completely understand what you mean.

I'm watching the New Japan G1 Climax right now, having subscribed to New Japan World earlier this year and being completely new to the product, it seems like NJPW is exactly the kind of product that Cornette and Ross clamor for: match-after-match, presented completely as a sport, but even for me (and I typically am more accepting of different types of products, especially anything that's the antithesis to WWE, which I feel is a completely garbage product), I do crave angles and promos after being conditioned to them ever since I was born. But to the dedicated puroresu audience, this is the kind of product they want, and that's what they're given.

I feel WWE is on the other end of the spectrum, where angles/promos dominate the product, and the wrestling itself is secondary to that, but the audience is completely conditioned to that kind of wrestling product. And WWE is a business first and foremost, so they have to build their product around what gets the highest quarter hour ratings, and if they determine that putting Rusev and Lana in a lover's quarrel angle with Ziggler and Summer Rae involved is what's going to do the best ratings, then that's what they're going to do, and that's actually more of a depressing commentary on the state of the American wrestling viewership.

But Cornette has historically been aloof and unreasonable when it comes to the modernization of wrestling. Wrestling always evolves. It was legitimate catch-as-catch-can wrestling until Ed "Strangler" Lewis and the Gold Dust Trio started working matches in the 1920s and introduced strikes, then Danno O'Mahony introduced the Irish Whip in the '30s and completely changed the way matches were done. The product that Cornette is most attached to (the '70s) was a modernization of early pro wrestling, and the current product is a continued modernization of the '70s, even if it has become continuous high spots, planchas, superkicks, and poor selling.

well, I don't think that's necessarily Ross/Cornette's position. They believe heavily in angles and long term programs, especially Cornette. Cornette was a promo guy, not a wrestler, it would be counter-intuitive for him to push a wrestling heavy product; he needs angles to make money. It's more about how it's done. That the promotion of a match has logic to it, based in reality, that the matches resemble competition and not performances, and that the issues or angles that arise are borne out of hot headed comptetition.

A Cornette dream would be like having a feud where you start off with promos and a match, things escalate, get more aggressive, then somebody smashes a bottle over someone's head, crowd goes crazy, blood, and it leads to a match where there's a brawl in the stands and finalises later in a cage match, where the matches are designed to further the storyline and conclude it. That's not really Japanese wrestling. Japanese wrestling has its own psychology that only really works in Japan, there psychology is more about having a warrior spirit, it's its own thing

 

[My Spot]

After Russo left the WWF in 99 a guy by the name of Chris Kreski took over creative. He actually planned things out ahead of time and used storyboards and such. Unfortunately Stephanie McMahon replaced him late summer 2000 and he died in 05.

And that reminds me, Stephanie's first major move was making Rikishi be the one to hit Austin with the car.

 

[Slick_36]

That Japanese mentality is what led to Pride eventually, some of the bigger names decided to take the already realistic Japanese wrestling style and go even further in to realism. Some felt grappling was the way, others felt striking was where it was at, then you had the debate of having real competition mixed in or keeping it all predetermined. It's a bummer they don't get credit for basically creating MMA before the UFC existed. I can appreciate the promos and storylines to an extent, especially stuff like Raven's promos in ECW and WCW, and Macho Man's promos in the WWF, but the wrestling itself is my favorite part of the sport, so watching a guy like Kenta Kobashi chop some guy's chest in to ground beef and then spike him on his head after a 30 minute war of attrition is just perfect to me. I don't have to understand a word to love it.

 

[Doughbelly]

The time for what Cornette is talking about has passed.

Radio serials, porn mags, dance marathons, drive-in movie theaters, barnstormers, etc. These are forms of entertainment for which the time has passed.

It's not something that was internal to the pro-wrestling business but the changing nature of the market. Between the internet and MMA, pro-wrestling as it existed up until the 80s, before it became cartoony, was never long for this world anyway.

 

[Seano]

Wrestling was fun when it was just a couple of dudes pretending to beat each other up. Then WWF started introducing Zombies and silly characters like Papa Shango and it went downhill from there.

WWF turned wrestling into a man soap opera.

 

[Doughbelly]

That Japanese mentality is what led to Pride eventually, some of the bigger names decided to take the already realistic Japanese wrestling style and go even further in to realism. Some felt grappling was the way, others felt striking was where it was at, then you had the debate of having real competition mixed in or keeping it all predetermined. It's a bummer they don't get credit for basically creating MMA before the UFC existed.

Japanese shoot/strong style puroresu don't get credit for creating MMA because they had nothing to do with its success on this side of the pacific.

The Japanese association of MMA with pro-wrestling, the spectacle/show aspects, the association with shady characters, etc, is what would eventually lead to its demise.

Meanwhile, in most other places that aren't Japan, MMA is huge and still growing.

 

[My Spot]

Wrestling was fun when it was just a couple of dudes pretending to beat each other up. Then WWF started introducing Zombies and silly characters like Papa Shango and it went downhill from there.

WWF turned wrestling into a man soap opera.

That's not true at all. There was plenty of silliness during the Attitude Era (including a woman in her 80s giving birth to a prosthetic hand) and it was still entertaining.

 

[Frank23]

Sports Entertainment is alive and well.

 

[My Spot]

Things will get better once Vince has to step down and Stephanie stays at home in the kitchen. HHH will take over and fire Kevin Dunn.

 

[Slick_36]

Japanese shoot/strong style puroresu don't get credit for creating MMA because they had nothing to do with its success on this side of the pacific.

The Japanese association of MMA with pro-wrestling, the spectacle/show aspects, the association with shady characters, etc, is what would eventually lead to its demise.

Meanwhile, in most other places that aren't Japan, MMA is huge and still growing.

You can't tell me Pride didn't have a huge impact on MMA. Even on just the hardcore fanbase. Guys like Wanderlei and Fedor wouldn't have been the same outside of Pride.

Things will get better once Vince has to step down and Stephanie stays at home in the kitchen. HHH will take over and fire Kevin Dunn.

I don't know, HHH is just such an insecure asshole. I don't know what he'll do when he has complete control. He could be just as bad if not worse.

 

[BVG]

The guy conducting the interview seems to know more about the wrasslin business than Cornette...

 

[My Spot]

I don't know, HHH is just such an insecure asshole. I don't know what he'll do when he has complete control. He could be just as bad if not worse.

He's been running NXT for a few years now and it's WAY better than Raw. Mainly because Vince and Dunn don't have their grubby hands all over it. You can thank HHH for shifting the focus to indy guys like Ambrose, Bryan, Owens, Rollins, etc.

 

[Slick_36]

He's been running NXT for a few years now and it's WAY better than Raw. Mainly because Vince and Dunn don't have their grubby hands all over it. You can thank HHH for shifting the focus to indy guys like Ambrose, Bryan, Owens, Rollins, etc.

True, but I think it's different when they break through to the main show. Once he sees them as competition, he changes. He will always put himself on top at the cost of others. It will he interesting to see it play out.

 

[RedRocket44]

He an oldtimer looking back. Nothing wrong with that. Sure, wrestling will probably never be what it was in the 80's. That's bc now they're not doing kayfabe constantly and they're open to it being fake. The allure is dead. But is wrestling dead? Nah. He's just being an oldtimer.

wrestling is dead, sports entertainment is still alive (WWE, TNA). It's not just branding - it's a style of storytelling in the ring, by the promotional personalities, and a way of doing business. what Cornette is talking about, it died mostly in the late 80's and got finished off in about 1997/1998 and went full on sport entertainment. Both can be good, but they are very different.

It's interesting, it was probably a few years after in the early 2000s soon after it became WWE when I completely lost interest, not long after it went full out sports entertainment.

With the UFC I've found my interest somewhat lacking the last few years, and I think a part of it is that it's now too starting to fall into the sports entertainment category. It will always have the element that it's "real" compared to wrestling, but I can't stand being sold on any more Rousey-type one-sided mismatches as a legitimate fight, nevermind shelling out $60 dollars for the PPV maincard, plus a cable subscription and a fightpass subscription for the undercard. To many guys have talked their way into title fights with disappointing results.

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

He's been running NXT for a few years now and it's WAY better than Raw. Mainly because Vince and Dunn don't have their grubby hands all over it. You can thank HHH for shifting the focus to indy guys like Ambrose, Bryan, Owens, Rollins, etc.

GROSS!!

Rollins is pretty good but he doesn't even deserve main event status. Owens and Ambrose suck. Having grown up during the attitude era, nothing about those two interests me AT ALL, same with Roman Reigns. I'd give Bryan credit for his commitment and that he gets the crowd pumped up, but he's not that good.

How about the creative team focus on the basics, wrestlers with the technical skill and can actually cut a promo? Miz and Ziggler are soooo underused, it's stupid for them to be in the mid-card.

 

[HereticBD]

Cornette is a smart guy when he's talking about wrestling. However, take his views with a grain of salt. If Cornette was running the WWE, the 26th version of The Rock And Roll Express would be the face of the company.

You wouldn't think it by listening to him, but make no mistake, he's about as out of touch as it gets.

 

[Organic Damage]

IMO the time for Cornette's brand of wrestling had already passed before WWE destroyed kayfabe and the product became sports-entertainment.

I like him as a promo guy and authority figure but even his booking didn't elevate TNA to the point of legit competition for WWE.