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Are you drinking?
Is there something wrong
- Thread starter silicavaginitis
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i didn't know a single person, that wasn't a drug dealer, that actually paid for college themselves. Parents, scholarships, student loans, GI BIll, work study, etc... every one had help
And i graduated in 2005. Right before the Fed took over all student loans and tuition rates magically started rising dramatically. Even then, when i was a freshman at SDSU in 2001, in state tuition was 888....no lie. By the time i graduated, it had risen to like 1500, not even sure what it is now (edit, just checked it's 6866) and that's still pretty damn cheap.
I mean i can't blame people that have concerns, especially considering the rise in suspect private, nonprofit schools, the overall increased number of grads and lack of employment for many degrees, etc....
it's rough man
And i graduated in 2005. Right before the Fed took over all student loans and tuition rates magically started rising dramatically. Even then, when i was a freshman at SDSU in 2001, in state tuition was 888....no lie. By the time i graduated, it had risen to like 1500, not even sure what it is now (edit, just checked it's 6866) and that's still pretty damn cheap.
I mean i can't blame people that have concerns, especially considering the rise in suspect private, nonprofit schools, the overall increased number of grads and lack of employment for many degrees, etc....
it's rough man
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Its really wild to me that you would vote for a guy you disagree with so much on. I guess I should be greatful with your help maybe well elect the man I really want to see be the next president
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There's nothing wrong with either choice. But effort is like capital you have finite amount of effort you can apply.
Some people are rich with motivation and effort, some are poorer, there's a whole range. But no matter how motivated you are, your effort is always finite.
So the more someone divides their effort, the less exceptional they will be at any given thing. When you are in your formative years(or any time really) your effort is best used in the optimal high value activities.
So a person, that is a really good brain surgeon, is more valuable than a person that is an ok surgeon and an ok burger flipper. You only have so many years to optimize your education, talented people spending time and effort on low value activities is less efficient and less beneficial to society in the long run.
The entire country benefits by having a work force that is optimally educated.
I'm not arguing against working through school, I worked through school. I'm just saying that creating situations where students need to work long hours or take on massive debt, minimizes their flexibility on how the apply their time and effort, which is sub-optimal for creating a educated productive society.
Some people are rich with motivation and effort, some are poorer, there's a whole range. But no matter how motivated you are, your effort is always finite.
So the more someone divides their effort, the less exceptional they will be at any given thing. When you are in your formative years(or any time really) your effort is best used in the optimal high value activities.
So a person, that is a really good brain surgeon, is more valuable than a person that is an ok surgeon and an ok burger flipper. You only have so many years to optimize your education, talented people spending time and effort on low value activities is less efficient and less beneficial to society in the long run.
The entire country benefits by having a work force that is optimally educated.
I'm not arguing against working through school, I worked through school. I'm just saying that creating situations where students need to work long hours or take on massive debt, minimizes their flexibility on how the apply their time and effort, which is sub-optimal for creating a educated productive society.
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Just using the one example of many... Trades are a form of learning, a practical education, and a very rewarding and utility laden thing to get in to. My time in the trades has left me aware of and interested in the methods and applications of an incredibly diverse and fast moving construction industry. My home is my playground, where I can change rooms, mix and match, imagine it as I like, and then make it happen with the literally thousands of little tricks that I have learned from extremely intelligent, capable, and resourceful tradesmen I have spent time essentially apprenticing under. I can tell you what kinds of paint do what, how to make that wall with a ding in it perfect, how to properly build a deck in whatever shape I want, I can... Well, sufficed to say, I have been "educated" to do many things I would leave college totally ignorant of. I'm empowered, by this education, in a way a lot of people aren't, and really don't appreciate.
You mistake my assertion as "MAKING THE MONEY IS ALL THAT MATTERS!"... Rather, I think college educations are valued, disproportionatly, above and beyond what you can learn in other areas, in other ways. A person with a formal education is learned in many ways, and ignorant in others. I think it's time that, as a culture, we place a bit more value on the knowledge of the master tradesmen, perhaps even to the point where we honour that knowledge alongside that of a professor. Both are masters, in a sense, with tremendous knowledge to impart - but I don't see many people dreaming of being a carpenter compared to dreaming of studying Romantic poetry. The thing is, I believe a lot of people who *think* they want to study Romantic poetry, who bought the myth of the grandness of the college education, might actually find learning to craft a house might be more rewarding and engaging.
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Heh, read my reasoning for supporting Bernie in that other thread... It's not because I entirely agree with this platform. The guy represents an integrity that is *sorely* lacking in our system at this point in time, and I think that might be more important than campaign platforms in many ways. Imagine, electing a person who doesn't just say what they have to to get votes... I'll vote for that person even if he doesn't match my views perfectly. Hopefully it sends a message to both parties - an honest candidate is worth promoting.
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Are you dumb?
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You know Jack, I'll leave you with this sentiment concerning my "philistine" view. My Papa was a working man. An immigrant from Germany who grew up in WWII and lived in a country which was in a sorry state. Not many people had a chance to have an education at all when he grew up and when he had kids, he was bound and determined for his kids to get a college education. That was the dream, that was the German ideal - their philosopher kings of old were still icons in their minds, and following in the footsteps of Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche - THAT was the highest ideal one could obtain.
So, growing up, it was a given that I was going to college. I always embraced it and I still am so happy I had that opportunity and it really defines my life now. But looking back, growing up with a Papa who was so knowledgable in so many areas of practical matters, the technical elements of so many things, I had an education at my fingertips my whole youth. At the time I didn't appreciate it - he didn't teach me to appreciate it because his views were somewhat like yours. Looking back though... I should have appreciated the decades of knowledge and expertise he offered. From his years growing up farming, all the knowledge on growing cycles, methods and times of planting... His experience as a steamfitter, welding things together and making marvelous constructions. Running water lines to make a garden work, animal husbandry, how to build things and make them work in so many arenas. The knowledge and education of a different sort that was there was *astounding*.
He taught me to not truly value the knowledge he had. Now, I look at it was a mistake, an artifact of a cultural bias that we have which we should make an effort to move away from. The world of knowledge, of truly valuable and profoundly empowering education that exists outside of the halls of the academy doesn't get the credit it deserves - not by half. But eh, that's just how I see it.
'Night all.
So, growing up, it was a given that I was going to college. I always embraced it and I still am so happy I had that opportunity and it really defines my life now. But looking back, growing up with a Papa who was so knowledgable in so many areas of practical matters, the technical elements of so many things, I had an education at my fingertips my whole youth. At the time I didn't appreciate it - he didn't teach me to appreciate it because his views were somewhat like yours. Looking back though... I should have appreciated the decades of knowledge and expertise he offered. From his years growing up farming, all the knowledge on growing cycles, methods and times of planting... His experience as a steamfitter, welding things together and making marvelous constructions. Running water lines to make a garden work, animal husbandry, how to build things and make them work in so many arenas. The knowledge and education of a different sort that was there was *astounding*.
He taught me to not truly value the knowledge he had. Now, I look at it was a mistake, an artifact of a cultural bias that we have which we should make an effort to move away from. The world of knowledge, of truly valuable and profoundly empowering education that exists outside of the halls of the academy doesn't get the credit it deserves - not by half. But eh, that's just how I see it.
'Night all.
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Some of his voters, sure. But even then, that's dwarfed in comparison to the number of people Republican politicians trick into voting against their own interest,through a mix of playing on their fears, and feeding them fallacy after fallacy.
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Some of them sure, just like every other candidate.
Edit: beat me to it gspieler.
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I have to ask you ...what makes a man more noble..one that works for his title or one that's given to him.?
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The sad thing is I know the answer.
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GI Bill only pays so much. I paid a good portion of my undergrad with it, and worked full time to cover the difference as well as basic living expenses.
The value of a bachelor's degree has decreased. So now I'm looking into grad programs and the cost is between $50k and $90k. The cost is ridiculous, but a master's degree is necessary in my field to continue to advance. The GI Bill is wiped out so I'll be in debt, which is a place I've never been.
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I will respond with a question here......
Does insanity mean trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result?
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Well let me clarify....
I dodged your question because it was loaded, and responded by pointing out that what we are doing today, is not working.
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So you want to expound on what we are doing today?
Really I can't tell if you are serious or mentally challenged.
And I I mean that as no disrespect.
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Well I assumed when you were asking if it is better to give a man a title, or earn one, that you were making some comment on debt free college as this is the subject of this thread.
My response back, is that we have been trying the earn your college degree route, and it is failing today.
We have people strapped with crippling debt for decades, and a job market that has out of work engineers.
Time to try something different, as our current path is failing, and it is insane to stay on a failing path.
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I worked during college, but I was t making enough to pay for school & expenses to pay for my college. I'm not even complaining because my degree was earned at one of the least expensive private colleges in the country (at the time) and I may good money to pay off my debt. Today kids are paying 2-3x what I did at inferior schools and earning the same amount of money.
One thing I'm concerned about re: Bernie's plan is that it is the opposite of Ron Paul's solution for the same problem. As long as Universities know they have a guaranteed revenue stream, whether it be government backed student loans or taxes on WS, they're going to keep jacking up the rates. So just like healthcare, there is going to have to be cost controls put in place.
One thing I'm concerned about re: Bernie's plan is that it is the opposite of Ron Paul's solution for the same problem. As long as Universities know they have a guaranteed revenue stream, whether it be government backed student loans or taxes on WS, they're going to keep jacking up the rates. So just like healthcare, there is going to have to be cost controls put in place.
