Is there something wrong

Who the hell is "your" and "we"?
Earn what you get,don't expect someone for a handout.
That's the bottom line.

Folks did it before ,it can be done again.
Don't be a parasite,be productive.
Don't make excuses,make progress.
 
Who the hell is "your" and "we"?
Earn what you get,don't expect someone for a handout.
That's the bottom line.

Folks did it before ,it can be done again.
Don't be a parasite,be productive.
Don't make excuses,make progress.

As in we the people, and this branch of thought, you represent with this post above, is from the republican party, and is the Gordon Gekko "greed is good" folks, that the Republicans I know, are turning against.

Maybe it is because I live in western Washington state, but I don't meet Republicans very often that are willing to defend the greed is good Wall Street crowd.

They stay Republicans over guns and taxes, but do not like this idea of everyone get what they can get, and get out, dog eat dog kind of thinking.
 
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Just some info on how it is in Germany:

1) Students / University students can get state support depending on their parents' income. They need to pay back half of it but no more than 10k Euros.

2) Parents are obliged to pay for their kids until they are 25.

3) University is free (except for private universities)

4) We have attractive vocational training programs

5) Not all parents do 2) (as I had to experience) and you won't usually sue your parents, so while the law does a lot to help those from not-so-rich backgrounds, complete fairness does not and will never exist
 
Agree with me or you're a lazy shit.


Fuuck off.

 
But free means free...there is no such thing
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somebody has to pay for this shit.

All of that would make the country a better place. Let the rich assholes pay for it and the country would inevitably improve.
 
with working your way through college?
Why would you want someone else to pay for it other than you are a lazy shit?
B.S. supporters,there is a reason why his initials are BS.

Yeah!

Everybody who went to high school and didn't pay for it is a lazy shit!

And a communist!

Hey you've got a point..high school teachers vs college professors,shit let's give them the same pay!

That's a super attempt to use a complete non-sequitur to change the subject, since you just got clowned so badly.

Virtually everybody goes to school for 10-12 years with "someone else paying for it". Not because they're "lazy shits", but because it's a fantastic system that has greatly advanced society's literacy, knowledge, and job skills.

And as long as you're being schooled in this thread, let me point out something else:
On top of everything else, your attempt to change the subject was based on a false premise.

The average HS teacher salary and the average college professor salary are not very different.
'Prestige' Professors who do major research, whose name draws students, or who work at elite colleges make more than an avg HS teacher.
Professors at most colleges who are just there to teach typically make less than a HS teacher.
 
Thing is college is so much more expensive now than before.

Yep. I think my years in college from 1990-1994 as a whole cost less than what I'll be paying for one year for my oldest when she starts later this Fall.
 
I just cannot recommend college anymore. It's much better to become friends with someone that can juice you into a government or a tradesman union gig.

Especially if one of those trades is a welder or an electrician . . . you might have to move around to follow jobs at times, but if I was in the position of deciding whether to go to college today or try to find a trade or something else I'm honestly not sure what I'd do. I'm glad I decided to go to college way back when and was very blessed to get a scholarship my last semester that required a payback to Uncle Sam. That's been parlayed into an almost 21 year career with the gubmint. Just over 9 more years until retirement . . . unless I'm able to walk away before then. :)
 
You know Jack, I'll leave you with this sentiment concerning my "philistine" view. My Papa was a working man. An immigrant from Germany who grew up in WWII and lived in a country which was in a sorry state. Not many people had a chance to have an education at all when he grew up and when he had kids, he was bound and determined for his kids to get a college education. That was the dream, that was the German ideal - their philosopher kings of old were still icons in their minds, and following in the footsteps of Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche - THAT was the highest ideal one could obtain.

So, growing up, it was a given that I was going to college. I always embraced it and I still am so happy I had that opportunity and it really defines my life now. But looking back, growing up with a Papa who was so knowledgable in so many areas of practical matters, the technical elements of so many things, I had an education at my fingertips my whole youth. At the time I didn't appreciate it - he didn't teach me to appreciate it because his views were somewhat like yours. Looking back though... I should have appreciated the decades of knowledge and expertise he offered. From his years growing up farming, all the knowledge on growing cycles, methods and times of planting... His experience as a steamfitter, welding things together and making marvelous constructions. Running water lines to make a garden work, animal husbandry, how to build things and make them work in so many arenas. The knowledge and education of a different sort that was there was *astounding*.

He taught me to not truly value the knowledge he had. Now, I look at it was a mistake, an artifact of a cultural bias that we have which we should make an effort to move away from. The world of knowledge, of truly valuable and profoundly empowering education that exists outside of the halls of the academy doesn't get the credit it deserves - not by half. But eh, that's just how I see it.

That's all fine, but I'm talking about this:

"Instead, we're going in the opposite direction and acting as if another bazillion arts majors will begood, or producing enough engineers so that the profession is flooded and people aren't earning good money off of it. Making everyone a college grad will just do to college degrees what happened to highschool degrees... They become useless. "

It is good to have more art majors, education ideally isn't about earning money, and making everyone a college grad is a good thing even if it doesn't provide a competitive edge in job markets. Obviously, making education more widely accessible isn't going to significantly affect poverty (it could indirectly by making the nation as a whole more productive, but you still have distribution problems), but it's a good goal in itself.

Some of his voters, sure. But even then, that's dwarfed in comparison to the number of people Republican politicians trick into voting against their own interest,through a mix of playing on their fears, and feeding them fallacy after fallacy.

This is a mistake that is common on the left, IMO. Poor and middle class Republicans might be voting against their *economic* interest, but it's not because they're being "tricked;" it's because their economic interest isn't primary to them.
 
That's all fine, but I'm talking about this:

"Instead, we're going in the opposite direction and acting as if another bazillion arts majors will begood, or producing enough engineers so that the profession is flooded and people aren't earning good money off of it. Making everyone a college grad will just do to college degrees what happened to highschool degrees... They become useless. "

It is good to have more art majors, education ideally isn't about earning money, and making everyone a college grad is a good thing even if it doesn't provide a competitive edge in job markets. Obviously, making education more widely accessible isn't going to significantly affect poverty (it could indirectly by making the nation as a whole more productive, but you still have distribution problems), but it's a good goal in itself.

I agree with this in principle, but I disagree with you seeming to pair "education" with "university." University is a useful tool for creating an understanding - or narrative, depending on your perspective - of the world around you. The thing is, it does tend to create particular understandings and narratives, with a limited range, and leaves very substantial gaps. There are other routes to take which are undervalued as a form of education, and I think that undervaluing might be what you're doing here.

If you want to teach someone about the world around them in an important sense, you can go about it in a lot of different ways. One is to teach them about the Enlightenment ideals which still saturate the world today, the French revolution, show how these ideals have spread around the globe in some way or another, have started to take on new regional lives in various parts of the world with rhetoric of Democracy and individual autonomy blah blah blah... Another way you can give people an important perspective is teaching them where their food comes from hands on - how things are built, what the walls around you and the things on your plate mean in a sense of human effort. Show them, over years, the evolution of the methods of construction, let them look at a fifty year old house and be able to say "I see how things were done differently," or use an oil paint for a primer and say "Wow, is this really all that used to be used? No wonder painters were getting sick!" Fix an old car, grow your own food, pay attention to a tradesman who has been doing things for 50 years and apprentice under the person. It's an eye opening experience and it teaches a lot of very valuable lessons and concepts which one simply doesn't learn in a university. Though, I will add, I think a better understanding of economics should be almost universally pushed and/or pursued.

You're right, education is important and the more we get the better we are. Thing is, I don't know if further increasing the availability and value of an already idealized form of education - the formal university education - is necessarily a good thing. Lowering costs of a university education, increasing accessibility, maybe even having it paid for as other countries do - great. I can get behind this conditionally. But, we live in a culture which idealizes this particular form of education, and in particular in relation to it being a gateway to a career, too much, and at the expense of others. People go to university because it's the dream - people learn to build a house because they didn't have another option. Building houses is not bad, though we're in a cultural environment where it's look at like some sort of a life-path consolation prize. I like the idea of separating the notion of earning potential and university education which you seem to be giving a nod to, but I also like the idea of every kid who goes to university working in some sort of other field under an experience tradesman or farmer or otherwise to give a more complete sense of the world around them. There is more to education, knowledge and learning than those hallowed halls offer.

As for the picture? It's just a silly meme... But it speaks to a reality experienced by a lot of young college kids these days, of that Baby Boomer myth of "You go to college and your degree is a ticket to a career." Culturally, there is a prevalent myth tying a college degree to economic gains and a lot of kids go in expecting it to pan out that way, then leave embittered that it was just a myth. If university is tied less to a surefire career path and more to a useful tool for understanding the world around us? Great - bring on the education for those who want it. As it is though? I wonder if we aren't just setting up a lot of kids with a big dream of a clear life path that has little follow through.

gender_studies.jpg
 
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I agree with this in principle, but I disagree with you seeming to pair "education" with "university."

I know not "seeming." Education is ideally the purpose of university. University isn't the only place you can get educated, but for many people, it is where it really starts, and for some, it's where it mostly ends. To quote Allan Bloom:

""The importance of these years for an American cannot be overestimated. They are civilization’s only chance to get to him.”

If you want to teach someone about the world around them in an important sense, you can go about it in a lot of different ways. One is to teach them about the Enlightenment ideals which still saturate the world today, the French revolution, show how these ideals have spread around the globe in some way or another, have started to take on new regional lives in various parts of the world with rhetoric of Democracy and individual autonomy blah blah blah... Another way you can give people an important perspective is teaching them where their food comes from hands on - how things are built, what the walls around you and the things on your plate mean in a sense of human effort.

Part of education is mentally liberating people from their own time and place. It's good to have an understanding of all that, but you should really have more if you're going to expand your mind.

Though, I will add, I think a better understanding of economics should be almost universally pushed and/or pursued.

Philosophy and various types of art appreciation should also be universally pushed.

Lord Bertie:

The man who has no tincture of philosophy goes through life imprisoned in the prejudices derived from common sense, from the habitual beliefs of his age or his nation, and from convictions which have grown up in his mind without the co-operation or consent of his deliberate reason. To such a man the world tends to become definite, finite, obvious; common objects rouse no questions, and unfamiliar possibilities are contemptuously rejected.

Anyway, I don't look down on anyone based on what they do for a living, and I agree (and have said in this thread) that education cannot universally be a ticket to better economic circumstances (poverty in the first world, for example, is mainly a result of the combination of a market-based income distribution system and insufficient redistribution to people who are unable to work). And if everyone has a higher education, it doesn't provide any competitive edge. No disagreement there.
 
As long as Universities know they have a guaranteed revenue stream, whether it be government backed student loans or taxes on WS, they're going to keep jacking up the rates.
That's not, at all, what's happening. You're ignoring changes in operating costs, etc.
 
I know not "seeming." Education is ideally the purpose of university. University isn't the only place you can get educated, but for many people, it is where it really starts, and for some, it's where it mostly ends. To quote Allan Bloom:

""The importance of these years for an American cannot be overestimated. They are civilization’s only chance to get to him.”

Part of education is mentally liberating people from their own time and place. It's good to have an understanding of all that, but you should really have more if you're going to expand your mind.

Well, with quotes like this, it's rather important not to take them in a vacuum. Take a figure like, say, Kierkegaard and his war on what he described as "Christendom." He saw formal education in religious matters as being used not used simply as a tool for "mentally liberating people from their own time and place" but rather as tools of indoctrination into an ideological system. Nietzsche agrees to a notable extent but extends this view beyond religious education, to education in general. How did he put it? "What does one learn in school? Obeying and commanding." Granted, much is gained along the way and many potential viewpoints and potential mental tools, but presenting school as "mentally liberating" is only part of the picture. In school, especially post secondary school, one falls into the realm of indoctrination into certain popular modes of thought - school, method, ideology. Some of the greatest thinkers of the past several hundred years had to leave school because they found its relative intellectual inflexibility smothering - Nietzsche and Kierkegaard being two of those figures.


Philosophy and various types of art appreciation should also be universally pushed.

Lord Bertie:

I'm guessing that's Russell? Sounds like him, though I understand you're a big fan. I agree with the statement "art appreciation" and "philosophy" should be universally pushed... But I'm not sure that formal education always does so in a great way. Bert talks of liberating from the prejudices of common sense, but I think you'd find a Nietzschean counterpoint that the institutions of education create a new series of prejudices, an insular of the erudite

"Education: essentially the means of ruining the exceptions for the good of the rule. Higher education: essentially the means of directing taste against the exceptions for the good of the rule." (Will to Power)

He goes on to describe institutes of education as "hothouses" - a breeding ground of certain prejudices and norms, an intellectual way of thought. Nietzsche is critical of reading too much, ironically, and insists that all great thoughts (paraphrasing here) come when walking, not reading or in a classroom. A message is repeated in many forms throughout Nietzschean philosophy... Though they're important, get your nose out of the books, and leave the classroom - they might just taint your ability to interpret the world.

Also, keep in mind, I'm not in *any* way pushing abolishing university or some such. I'm more preaching to a point of balance, of establishing the value of other ways of learning. Practical learning, the learning of trades, is just one of many such methods and focuses.

Anyway, I don't look down on anyone based on what they do for a living, and I agree (and have said in this thread) that education cannot universally be a ticket to better economic circumstances (poverty in the first world, for example, is mainly a result of the combination of a market-based income distribution system and insufficient redistribution to people who are unable to work). And if everyone has a higher education, it doesn't provide any competitive edge. No disagreement there.

If I suggested you did specifically, my apologies. It's more of a general point. As a culture, there is a pretty long standing bias in favour of the university in our culture - towards formal education, the white collar, jobs where one has clean hands.

I'm not sure university is for everyone and, even intellectually, it has its own pitfalls. I think some departments count the pitfalls as their virtues, no less, liberating from the "prejudices of common sense" only shackle the young thinker with the prejudice of (insert school of thought here.) I'd like to see more focus put into other forms of learning, other avenues of acquiring skills and knowledge, and maybe get rid of some of the stigma of working with one's hands for a living.

On a side note, some of the most interesting and successful young artists in my area work in construction... Why? Because the knowledge of methods of construction is integral to their artistic method. Simply put, the "hands on" approach of learning, and what you gain from ground level involvement rather than just ivory tower theory, is invaluable to their art. Heck, I guy I work with frequently just received a grant from the state for his work dismantling old barns and using their aged lumber to create these odd industrial antique art pieces...
 
It's unfortunate that this has to be said:

College is generally for smart people.

Just like basketball teams are generally for tall people.

If you put stupid people in a college it will not make them smart, just like putting short people onto a basketball team will not make them tall.

Metrics like IQ are generally a constant throughout a person's life. If you flood colleges with stupid people in the hopes that it'll make them smart, all you have done is made the standards regress to the mean, and now you brought down the quality of all college education. Worst of all the smart people who were supposed to be getting the high-class high-dollar education have to spend more time and money doing so because the university also has to waste time and resources dealing with students that can't even comprehend basic English or mathematics.

If you remove all economic disincentives and barriers for getting into college, this problem will only get much worse.
 
Nothing wrong with working your way through college. But as noted by others, the cost of college is reaching the point that very few people can afford to do so. Especially at the more selective universities. And in this economy where your college and your network are of ever greater importance, working your way through the University of Phoenix might not worth it.

I don't think the answer is that people shouldn't go to college. The modern economy has less and less need for low skilled workers. The solution lies in either increasing the scope of what's mandatory in high school or making college part of public education.
 
GI Bill only pays so much. I paid a good portion of my undergrad with it, and worked full time to cover the difference as well as basic living expenses.

The value of a bachelor's degree has decreased. So now I'm looking into grad programs and the cost is between $50k and $90k. The cost is ridiculous, but a master's degree is necessary in my field to continue to advance. The GI Bill is wiped out so I'll be in debt, which is a place I've never been.
Do you have any disability compensation? If so, you may able to use Voc Rehab under the VA to complete another degree.....
 
He saw formal education in religious matters as being used not used simply as a tool for "mentally liberating people from their own time and place" but rather as tools of indoctrination into an ideological system.

Where that kind of thing exists, there is a need for improvement. It's not an argument against universities in general, any more than police corruption is an argument for anarchy.

I'm guessing that's Russell? Sounds like him, though I understand you're a big fan. I agree with the statement "art appreciation" and "philosophy" should be universally pushed... But I'm not sure that formal education always does so in a great way. Bert talks of liberating from the prejudices of common sense, but I think you'd find a Nietzschean counterpoint that the institutions of education create a new series of prejudices, an insular of the erudite

That's actually fine. People are going to be exposed to the prejudices of their time and place. Exposing them to new ones gives them something to think about and more options. BTW, not exactly related but I just saw something on Crooked Timber that this reminds me of:

http://crookedtimber.org/2016/02/08/plato-vs-metaphysics-or-how-very-hard-it-is-to-un-learn-freud/

“Totalitarianism!” is an accusation that appears in almost every student Plato paper, “Dystopia! Oppression! It would be unendurable! evil! for people to have their jobs dictated to them by the state! Assigned to fixed ranks for their whole lives! With no say in government unless they’re one of these supposed philosopher kings!” It’s a reaction which always makes a wave of awe wash over me at the absolute victory of Enlightenment concept of equality. Because such students genuinely and reflexively think of equality and self-determination as the human default. People. Are. Equal. And. Free. (is the thought process), and if Plato’s “ideal” city imposes assigned jobs and class differences, those impositions are tyrannical. This gut reaction completely misses the fact that Plato’s city, which extends equal education to all and then assigns tasks and ranks based on exams and personal disposition, is radically morefree than the reality Plato lived in, in which one’s lot in life was dictated by birth, and elements of inescapable chance far more inhuman than a well-meaning exam. Viewed from the point of view of 3 centuries BC (or even 15 centuries AD) Plato’s Republic offers mind-blowing levels of equality and self-determination.

On the other end, in the WR, we see a lot of right-wingers who think that they can simultaneously support minimal gov't and free-market fundamentalism. That can only be sustained by complete ignorance about the nature of gov't and how any stateless society works. People take property and all that the state does to impose a market-based economy for granted and then want to move from there.

Also, keep in mind, I'm not in *any* way pushing abolishing university or some such. I'm more preaching to a point of balance, of establishing the value of other ways of learning. Practical learning, the learning of trades, is just one of many such methods and focuses.

Well, that's fine, but the discussion is about free higher education, and no one is in favor of abolishing practical learning, either.

I'm not sure university is for everyone and, even intellectually, it has its own pitfalls.

How about this: Is it for everyone who wants it? That's the real issue.
 
Where that kind of thing exists, there is a need for improvement. It's not an argument against universities in general, any more than police corruption is an argument for anarchy.

Oh yeah, Nietzche's relationship with universities was tense. I could cherry pick some quotes and take them out of context and spin him as being 100% pro-post-secondary education. The thing is, neither extreme really captures his thought - he was aware of the ideological pitfalls of such institutions.

Trust me, I would love to see universities clean up ideologically. I don't see it happening though. Where I'm by nature quite centrist, I find myself moving more into the role of "right wing intellectual" just to be a counterforce to some very unbalanced trends in department thought. Still not fully comfortable in the role.

That's actually fine. People are going to be exposed to the prejudices of their time and place. Exposing them to new ones gives them something to think about and more options. BTW, not exactly related but I just saw something on Crooked Timber that this reminds me of:

http://crookedtimber.org/2016/02/08/plato-vs-metaphysics-or-how-very-hard-it-is-to-un-learn-freud/

That's actually pretty spot on. I'm working with translation theory now and the notion of the Hegelian "concrete universal" is a term which is thrown around a lot and is very relevant to contemporary translation theory. The thing is, Hegel is one of the most difficult philosophers to get a handle on, and the way he describes the theory makes it incredibly difficult for young students to grasp. I've taken to using a description of the Platonic world of forms and the ideal chair VS the material chair as a way to explain how concrete universality works since the concepts are very similar. When I do so, I'm often met with this kind of reaction - a general distaste for Plato in virtue of his social engineering. Because he believed the "wrong things" he is shunned by many students - and they're getting this from other profs. It's like many students want you to preface bringing up Plato with "While I know he was an evil, tyrannical man, but..."

On the other end, in the WR, we see a lot of right-wingers who think that they can simultaneously support minimal gov't and free-market fundamentalism. That can only be sustained by complete ignorance about the nature of gov't and how any stateless society works. People take property and all that the state does to impose a market-based economy for granted and then want to move from there.

Eh, no argument from me here.


Well, that's fine, but the discussion is about free higher education, and no one is in favor of abolishing practical learning, either.

My thought is, in a society with a bias in favour of higher education and a cultural disdain for blue jobs - that "consolation prize of careers" mindset - the step we take shouldn't be to give everyone the shiny toy they want to play with of a university education, and rather keep it accessible, but work to appreciate other modes of learning more. "abolishing practical learning" is overstating my case - I'm not at all concerned with that happening. I'm more concerned that little is being done to make people appreciate it more, whereas we seem to be doing quite a bit to continue the idea that university is something everyone should do.

How about this: Is it for everyone who wants it? That's the real issue.

You know, I doubt it. My brother got an engineering degree - same idea as me, he knew he was going to university - and now he works as a fire fighter sometimes and sometimes on oil rigs. Thought university and a desk job was for him - indoctrinated by dear Papa - and found out it wasn't for him, five years and close to $100,000 later. Maybe we need to be sending more messages of "University is for a lot of people, but isn't for some - there is a lot of good to be said about various labour jobs."
 
You shouldn't have to be a Trust Fund Baby to get a decent education in this country. But, I do think college should cost something, so that there is an appreciation and respect for what you're doing.

If we can afford to have military bases in places like Okinawa, Germany, or in South Korea, we can damn sure afford to re invest in our greatest resource, which is the American people.

The GI Bill is usually the solution for the "poor" to get their chance to compete with the Trust Fund Babies. But not everyone is cut out for the military, with all due respect to the military. Something needs to be done about the high and rising cost of college. This is unsustainable to say the least lol
 
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