Is Stipe overrated?

[Bork Neslar]

Why do you ask if you already have an answer? You autistic weirdos always make the same kind of stupid useless threads. You shoud just watch the fucking fights and keep your retarded opinions to yourselves.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

So Prime Cain is a better fighter then..

For sure.

Prime Cain smashed prime JDS twice.

 

[Thatlookinhiseyes]

2x hw champion. 6 title fight wins. 4 defenses between the two. Record for most title defenses at ufc hw at 3. 6 victories over 5 ufc champions. Plus a huge ko win over overeem.

The Only other person at hw in discussion is fedor. Pride hw champion. 9 wins over 7 champions (although the mir and Jackson wins should not really count as championship quality wins). 3 title defenses at pride hw. Plus 2 wins over crocop.

Stipe is clearly the ufc hw goat. Fedor edges out stipe just barely in the overall hw goat discussion in my mind, but it certainly is debatable.

Considering all this, how would stipe be overrated at all?

 

[Paolo Delutis]

My head hurts because of the O.P

 

[blaseblase]

That's how I remember it too. I'm pretty sure that scorecard could have went either way. Might need to rewatch it myself. It's been a long time.

No. It was a competitive fight but easy to score. Stipe won the first two rounds, JDS won the last three.

 

[blaseblase]

Final stop on my Stipe hate tour in this thread - it's telling that it is the exact same logic being used to wheel Stipe himself out for this fight.

It's downright embarrassing when an MMA fan brings out the 39-year-old Werdum win in particular as evidence of Stipe's greatness. Physically Werdum looked absolutely awful and his performance was legitimately one of the worst things ever seen in an MMA cage, with no exaggeration.

You wouldn't find 0-1 amateur WMMA fighters that would attempt a plodding mong rush and windmill out snail-paced attempted slaps at their opponent like that. He looked like a demented senior citizen trying to fight in there.

Werdum had two of his best performances before and after the Stipe fight. He was still in top form. Shitty gameplan, but no he wasn't out of prime.

 

[Ibm]

He beat DC twice,. That is a nightmare in itself.

 

[codfather]

Stipe is the 2nd best HW of all-time, after Ngannou.

 

[Dr Fong]

Werdum had two of his best performances before and after the Stipe fight. He was still in top form. Shitty gameplan, but no he wasn't out of prime.

Yeah, beating Travis Browne in the midst of his own 0-4 finish to his career is proof that a 39-year-old who just fought like a complete bum is still in his 'prime'. The shit you read on here.

 

[Mike]

Depends on where people rate him. The people that have him as the overall hw goat, despite mainly fighting past prime opponents? Yeah they're overrating him. He is the clear ufc hw goat tho.

 

[g*r*b]

Also for all those sobbing that HW has always been full of the elderly and to leave Stipe alone, look at the ages of the top guys in the division today.

Jones - 36 (and one-fight from retirement)
Aspinall - 31
Gane - 34
Pavlovich - 32
Blaydes - 33
Volkov - 35
Almeida - 32

You can see that Stipe's Turok hunt of so many 36+ year-olds is not the norm, even though it still skews old, and he was lucky to get so many on the decline in his era. Early to mid 30s is still prime for a HW. Not late 30s/40s.

Stipe wasn't the only HW to come into the UFC around his time and age. He fought a few of them early on, like Philip de Fries (now lording it over KSW) and Shane del Rosario (resting in peace). But generally speaking his contemporaries didn't stick around long enough to be matched up against. They got washed out of the UFC on losing records, or drummed out for being boring when a loss presented an excuse. If everybody else is getting eaten by the dinosaurs, what else can Turok hunt?

 

[Dr Fong]

Stipe wasn't the only HW to come into the UFC around his time and age. He fought a few of them early on, like Philip de Fries (now lording it over KSW) and Shane del Rosario (resting in peace). But generally speaking his contemporaries didn't stick around long enough to be matched up against. They got washed out of the UFC on losing records, or drummed out for being boring when a loss presented an excuse. If everybody else is getting eaten by the dinosaurs, what else can Turok hunt?

You can only fight what is available. Beating what is availabe makes you the current best but beating what is available does not make you the GOAT.

You don't get to claim that 41-year-old fat DC or 39-year-old fat Werdum or 13x KOd old Reem or 8x KOd old Arlovski or post-Cain bashings JDS or a green Ngannou were in their primes because they were still good enough to be near the top.

They simply weren't in their primes and this impacts how we view Turok historically. It doesn't mean Turok was shit. He is still one of the best to do it.

 

[g*r*b]

You can only fight what is available. Beating what is availabe makes you the current best but beating what is available does not make you the GOAT.

You don't get to claim that 41-year-old fat DC or 39-year-old fat Werdum or 13x KOd old Reem or 8x KOd old Arlovski or post-Cain bashings JDS or a green Ngannou were in their primes because they were still good enough to be near the top.

They simply weren't in their primes and this impacts how we view Turok historically. It doesn't mean Turok was shit. He is still one of the best to do it.

GOAT discussions are generally the most ridiculous and unverifiable ones, anyways. It's not like you can run the same test again exactly the same way except for one variable, to determine comparisons. Even second or third matchups have too many differences in situation to be like that. And yet we say "so and so doesn't make you the GOAT" when we really should say "so and so doesn't PROVE you are the GOAT." And by the same token. neither does it disprove.

Personally even though I am a Stipe fan through and through I don't need to consider him GOAT. I'm content with saying he's a great fighter. But I do get a little exasperated at arguments that fixate on one factor, like the age argument. Especially since I have the sneaking and admittedly sexist suspicion that it appeals to the male imagination to think everything can be boiled down to a number.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

Yes he is and having 1 more title defense than anybody else does not automatically make you the GOAT. He was very good. He's up there for sure but I don't think he should just be considered the GOAT when other guys have beaten a lot more legends. He did what others couldn't in breaking the title defense record but it's not like he had 10 defenses so I don't think it's super clear cut. One of the best for sure but I don't think there is really a clear cut Heavyweight GOAT, many would say Fedor I guess.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

. 9 wins over 7 champions (although the mir and Jackson wins should not really count as championship quality wins).

Really though this just highlights that "names" and "former champs" in themselves are not an absolute measure of quality, Mir and Jackson were obviously a long way past their best but then again you could make the case for quite a few of Stipes wins being past prime, Arlovski, Hunt, JDS, Cormier 3, etc.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

You can only fight what is available. Beating what is availabe makes you the current best but beating what is available does not make you the GOAT.

You don't get to claim that 41-year-old fat DC or 39-year-old fat Werdum or 13x KOd old Reem or 8x KOd old Arlovski or post-Cain bashings JDS or a green Ngannou were in their primes because they were still good enough to be near the top.

They simply weren't in their primes and this impacts how we view Turok historically. It doesn't mean Turok was shit. He is still one of the best to do it.

But you're moving the goalpost because JDS and Overeem were not old. Saying that they got "bashed" or "KO'd" prior to fighting him does not make them old or past their prime.

You're essentially just overanalyzing every single person he beat and giving him zero benefit of the doubt, which you could do with any fighter. You are looking for things to discredit.

And the old guys he beat were the literal champions of the UFC (Werdum and Cormier), so it doesn't make that much sense to discredit them. They were still the top heavyweights regardless of their age.

It overlooks that most heavyweights fight and beat guys who are old or recently got knocked out. Heavyweights get knocked out a lot, and they fight late in their career. That is normal.

 

[robbie]

Stipe has the most successful HW title defenses in UFC history with 4 wins over a pretty good roster of opponents: Overeem, JDS, Ngannou and Cormier. Stipe might not have lost the title in the first place to Cormier without the blatant eye pokes. DC abused Stipe with eye pokes in the first two fights (had to get eye surgery) and then Stipe returned the favor in the third fight and Cormier got to experience the joy of a finger straight into the eye socket.

Stipe was the only elite HW willing to fight Ngannou when Ngannou was viciously separating opponents head from their torsos. Ngannou's KO win over Overeem was probably the most violent stand-up punch in UFC history. Certainly the best upper cut in UFC history at the very least. Stipe agreed to give Ngannou a title fight after FN obliterated Overeem and Stipe was a 150 underdog as a 36 year old champion. Few analysts predicted Stipe would win since Ngannou was usually getting first round finishes and only occasionally went two rounds. Miocic came up with a smart game plan of stick and move plus mixing in the wrestling to keep Ngannou off balance and drain his gas tank. The strategy worked like a champ with a 50-44 50-44 and 50-44 UD.

Cormier never once got around to fighting Ngannou despite being in the same HW division for several years. Jones sat around inactive for a long time prior to his eventual return to the UFC at the HW division which not so coincidentally happened shortly after Ngannou left the UFC after a contract dispute. Jones was totally ok with getting a contract signed to fight Gane, but had no interest in a fight contract with Ngannou. Stipe fought him twice at age 36 and age 38 when many HWs are past their prime or retired.

I also personally like Miocic. He is a devoted family man. He is humble and works hard. He serves the community as a full-time fire fighter and paramedic.

 

[Dr Fong]

But you're moving the goalpost because JDS and Overeem were not old. Saying that they got "bashed" or "KO'd" prior to fighting him does not make them old or past their prime.

You're essentially just overanalyzing every single person he beat and giving him zero benefit of the doubt, which you could do with any fighter. You are looking for things to discredit.

And the old guys he beat were the literal champions of the UFC (Werdum and Cormier), so it doesn't make that much sense to discredit them. They were still the top heavyweights regardless of their age.

It overlooks that most heavyweights fight and beat guys who are old or recently got knocked out. Heavyweights get knocked out a lot, and they fight late in their career. That is normal.

It's not moving the goalposts at all. The fact that you don't think age or damage suffered matters says a lot about your own level of 'analysis' - none of it good. HWs do fight late, but this has already been addressed. The current top HWs are not as old as the ones Stipe was fighting.

Anyone who thinks JDS was the same fighter after the Cain fights or that a 36-year-old 17 years into his caeer and 13 KOs suffered - fucking 13 - were in their 'prime' is not worth discussing MMA with.

 

[Dr Fong]

GOAT discussions are generally the most ridiculous and unverifiable ones, anyways. It's not like you can run the same test again exactly the same way except for one variable, to determine comparisons. Even second or third matchups have too many differences in situation to be like that. And yet we say "so and so doesn't make you the GOAT" when we really should say "so and so doesn't PROVE you are the GOAT." And by the same token. neither does it disprove.

Personally even though I am a Stipe fan through and through I don't need to consider him GOAT. I'm content with saying he's a great fighter. But I do get a little exasperated at arguments that fixate on one factor, like the age argument. Especially since I have the sneaking and admittedly sexist suspicion that it appeals to the male imagination to think everything can be boiled down to a number.

Both sides rely on numbers. Stipe's fluffers rely on 'most title defences' without any real insight into how good these wins were. I am the one arguing in favor of some subjectivity and looking at actual context, as well as basic stats.

Werdum's performance against him was downright embarrassing. Anyone with eyes can see that. It's not just that he objectively was old, it's subjectively how he looked like complete ass. This doesn't just boil down to a number - you have to actually watch the fight.

It's his fluffers that depend on numbers the most. They try to cut off the debate by insisting that the number of times he beat up on the elderly or the crippled removes all other considerations.

 

[Captain Herb]

So Stipe himself was already 32 in that fight. I agree he wasn't in his MMA prime yet but his improvement in skills has to be balanced against the fact that he himself was no longer in his athletic prime. And everyone else was a carcass compared to him.

Basically it was an old man division, where Stipe was always younger than his opponent (except green Francis and post Cain-JDS), with much less miles on him. He is an enigma because of his own late start in MMA.

Absolutely nobody he beat after that first JDS fight was in their prime.

Hunt - 41
Arlovski - one month from 37, 17 years in, 8 times KOd
Werdum - one month from 39
Overeem - 36, 17 years in, 13 times KOd (in both MMA + K1)

JDS - Younger than Stipe. But no serious MMA fans thinks JDS was the same fighter after Cain 1 + 2, Overeem KO and Stipe 1 war. There's a reason JDS opened as a massive betting favorite in first Stipe fight yet a significant underdog in the 2nd despite winning the first time.

Ngannou - As discussed. You can argue the 2nd Stipe fight was as much Stipe out of his prime as Ngannou was green in the first fight. But the fact Stipe got destroyed by a non-green Frank doesn't give him much credit for the first fight.

Cormier - 40/41 (39 when Cormier beat him)

Stipe's entire UFC record vs people younger than him is 4-3. His record against people older than him is 10-0.

His legacy is a Turok lie.

You can use the exact same argument to say Jon Jones' career is overrated trash