Is forcibly holding someone against a fence “dominating” them?

Garnet_StrongerThanYou said:
A show of hands here.

If you got into a street fight and the other guy held you against the wall for 25 minutes, would you say you got your ass kicked?

Sometimes when guys have angry girlfriends try to beat them up People hold them against the wall until they calmed down.

Obviously the guy against the wall doesn’t like it and can’t stop it.

What say you Sherdog?
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It wouldn't happen in a street fight. Tactics used in sport isn't used in street fights. Street fights are quick and you are trying to finish as fast as possible. You are not starting slow trying to figure things out, you are not point fighting, and excessive grappling doesn't work because it leaves you open to other people attacking you. Just quick take downs, throws, trips but never follow them to the ground especially vs multiple people. If you are locked on to one person you are completely defenseless vs anyone else attacking you. Grappling on the ground is a big no-no in street fights, you will get stomped out by everyone by being on the ground.

Plus no gloves and clothes on is a different factor all together. There are a lot of other moves that can be done because of that variable - and also no rules on techniques changes the game completely.
 
If a fighter does no significant damage and makes no attempt to finish the fight. They do not deserve to claim they "beat" anyone.
 
PRIDEfallstoUFC said:
If a fighter does no significant damage and makes no attempt to finish the fight. They do not deserve to claim they "beat" anyone.
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So what happens when the opposing fighter gets held and does even less?
 
Garnet_StrongerThanYou said:
A show of hands here.

If you got into a street fight and the other guy held you against the wall for 25 minutes, would you say you got your ass kicked?

Sometimes when guys have angry girlfriends try to beat them up People hold them against the wall until they calmed down.

Obviously the guy against the wall doesn’t like it and can’t stop it.

What say you Sherdog?
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure if someone held me against a wall for 25 minutes on the street that would be considered sexual assault.

I guess that is dominating...
 
Yeah, it total domination. Guys like khabib, john fitch, okami, Sonnen all have this not very fan friendly style but it is clear that they all dominate their opponents.

Gus was getting his ass kicked in the stand up by Jan, but adjusted and took Jan down and dominated him for the rest of the fight and won an easy decision. If that wasn't a domination...then why the hell didn't Jan get up?
 
Garnet_StrongerThanYou said:
A show of hands here.

If you got into a street fight and the other guy held you against the wall for 25 minutes, would you say you got your ass kicked?

Sometimes when guys have angry girlfriends try to beat them up People hold them against the wall until they calmed down.

Obviously the guy against the wall doesn’t like it and can’t stop it.

What say you Sherdog?
Click to expand...
stalling isnt offense, and anything that happens in a fight that isn't offense shouldn't be scored for. so judges need to be taught that it doesn't count for aggression, cage control, ring dominance, etc. doesn't matter whether the guy is held against the cage or the ground.
 
Kingofthestreets said:
Yeah, it total domination. Guys like khabib, john fitch, okami, Sonnen all have this not very fan friendly style but it is clear that they all dominate their opponents.

Gus was getting his ass kicked in the stand up by Jan, but adjusted and took Jan down and dominated him for the rest of the fight and won an easy decision. If that wasn't a domination...then why the hell didn't Jan get up?
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khabib beats the shit out of people on the ground. he doesn't just keep them there.
 
It's dominant, but it feels weird to say someone got dominatED in that case.
 
Kryptt said:
So what happens when the opposing fighter gets held and does even less?
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a draw. if you hold someone down without advancing position and looking for a finish, then you're stalling. this is why foot stamps shouldnt be scored for. judges should understand that "looking busy" striking shouldn't be scored for either. and the ref shouldn't consider it before separating the fighters.
 
kuroro said:
a draw. if you hold someone down without advancing position and looking for a finish, then you're stalling. this is why foot stamps shouldnt be scored for. judges should understand that "looking busy" striking shouldn't be scored for either. and the ref shouldn't consider it before separating the fighters.
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I agree to an extend but doubt it will ever be discerned as such.

They can't even accurately score effective striking.
 
kuroro said:
a draw. if you hold someone down without advancing position and looking for a finish, then you're stalling. this is why foot stamps shouldnt be scored for. judges should understand that "looking busy" striking shouldn't be scored for either. and the ref shouldn't consider it before separating the fighters.
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ok, but what if you break the other guy's foot with a foot stomp, then keep stomping his broken foot for the next 3-4 minutes? i guarantee that foot is gonna be mangled.
 
The goal isn't just to hold the guy. They're being patient and waiting for an opening.

It's why high level grappling is boring as hell to watch. People are being patient.

It's the same reason guys don't just stand and throw hooks rock em sock em style.

In a street fight there's a garbage load more variables. You could probably also use the fence as a weapon. Also, you take someone down in a street fight there's no mat. It's typically a lot more devastating.

Holding a guy on the fence is the same as dancing and jabbing with no significant strikes. It's winning, but you're not beating anyone up.
 
Of course it is dominating them. But it isn't fighting them per se. And this is, after all, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. So while I'm not disgusted by wall and stall like some of you guys are, I'm OK with the idea of it not being rated much in scoring.
 
mirko>anyone said:
If you irrefutably pin someone against their will, it’s dominant.
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Honestly, i understand. And id say anyone could. But if there is no time limit and the controller gets tired controlling before the defendant, then id say who cares?

Its a play on the rules. And awful to the viewer.
 
TrueBias said:
Honestly, i understand. And id say anyone could. But if there is no time limit and the controller gets tired controlling before the defendant, then id say who cares?

Its a play on the rules. And awful to the viewer.
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Well, the question seems broader than that.

if I can impose my will on you and dictate the terms, I’m the dominant one. It may not necessarily result in excitement or a finish, and may exploit rules, but it’s still dominant. The defendant is there against their will.

besides, it’s extremely rare where these positions occur and the dominant one isn’t the one mounting more offense. It sucked watching usman hold Masvidal against the fence, but the fact remains he did more. The “he didn’t do amything at all” argument is usually us venting frustration because the fight didn’t play out as well as it could have.
 
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