Incels, declining birthrate, and sexual economics.

[loyalyolayal]

Having more kids is not the same as having more sex. I've had a significant amount of sex partners and have never had a child.

Is that the point of this thread? Title says declining birthrates. They have more kids, they're having sex.

 

[BEER]

Is that the point of this thread? Title says declining birthrates. They have more kids, they're having sex.

You countered a point with an article about conservatives having more kids.

I pointed out that more kids doesn't mean more sex.

Yes. They have sex.

Just not as much sex as I do, and I have zero children.

 

[MiniCraque]

True. Not sure why people think this is a huge problem. It isn't. Eventually society will be incel free because they won't be able to pass on their retarded genes. That's how the incel culture will be eliminated. Nature will take care of it.

I don't think the problem is any number of men not getting laid. That's been a thing for ever. The real issue here is not getting laid becoming a group identity. That's complete mental poison.

Social media platforms will probably make sure that continues to exist. Heck, we might not have seen worst yet, and there have been mass killings done by incels.

 

[luckyshot]

It's going to get ugly for the younger generations, that I do know.

Most of the people here are the beneficiaries of an era when things between men and women were still relatively normalized, and the bargaining power between the genders roughly equal (or arguably even stacked in the men's favour). That's no longer going to be the case, from this point forward. The social security provided by the state is a better husband than most men can ever claim to be.

Societies like Japan, and well, Finland, are a sign of things to come. Most men will be brought up in a way that will make them totally detached from anything that could be regarded as charismatic or magnetic male behaviour (with any display of such being discouraged by one's peers), and their ability to forge relationships through any of the other methods available (such as having a steady income), is also bound to become weaker.

For example, the number of young males living under the poverty line in Finland, has already very much over-taken the number of women. They also drop out disproportionately from schools, whereas most women attain a higher education, even if this does not translate to a higher income. What it does, unfortunately, translate to, is a higher expectation, higher than probably, realistically warranted.

All of these developments have occurred very rapidly and show no signs of stopping. Certainly not by bringing in hordes of young male immigrants who face even worse circumstances, with even less ability/self-control to overcome their predicament. Which, as we have already seen, has translated to enormously disproportionate numbers of sexual abuse committed by these demographics.

Many find it easy to dismiss these statistical patterns by looking back to their own days of "glory", when winning over the woman was as easy as just having a job and some semblance of hygiene, but this is no longer the situation at the ground level for the younger age groups. You have to do a lot more to navigate through the bullshit and build yourself into a respectable character, when no one around you is enforcing you to become one. Not the society, not the teachers, not the parents, not the male peers, nobody.

Lol. In other words, you have to get a decent job in order to ensure you get married. Just like it ALWAYS was.

Most of these incels think things are hard today because they aren't getting the star treatment from women without ever achieving anything in life.

Tell me this: is there a society on earth where a man with a half decent job can't get a woman?

I know in the US you can. Shit my friend's younger brother has been married THREE times. And he's a fucking idiot. And his job isn't even that good.

 

[Shinobi]

I don't buy the "small minority of men will get all the women" argument. Get them for what? Most women want to get married, and polygamy is illegal in most of the country at the moment.

The whole reason this is even an argument at all is because so many guys have no standards at all in the character department, and standards way out of their league in the looks department. If you do nothing at all to get in shape, smoke weed and play video games all day and have a shit job, you have no right to complain when super models don't find you attractive.

Likewise, women don't have any reason at all to not start from the top and bang their way down until one of them sticks with them because guys will still take chicks with 50 sexual partners. If there was a finite number of sexual partners a chick could have before she became undesirable, they'd have to play their odds better and go straight for guys their level, but there isn't so why would they?

To be fair, plenty of unattractive men can't get unattractive women either. It's not like they are slobs who aren't worthy the attention of much better women. It's more like they're slobs who can't find other slobs, because even female slobs get good quality dick on a regular basis, mostly because of social media, porn and how desperate men are to have sex and fulfil all of their fantasies.

This problem could actually get solved if men had standards. SIMPS who are decent looking ruin it for everyone. Way too many men who don't look half bad are willing to fuck anything. They want easy sex. They send contless low effort messages to girls on social media. They don't wanna have conversations. They wanna fuck right now. So pretty much all the women that could be fucking incels are being used as sex toys by more attractive men than them, because, believe it or not, plenty of men find sloppy women attractive, as long as they're willing to do all those crazy tricks they see on porn sites.

 

[boxingskills]

It's 2020. Just make a lot of $ yourself AND marry someone that does. I guess I got lucky because when we met my wife and I were both broke and we increased our earnings pretty concurrently over the years. But people get married way older now, and the income gap is narrowing.

Or get a prenup I guess.

Weddings cost money. I can't be bothered to look it up but I think the average cost of a wedding is 20-30k. An ironclad prenuptial agreement is also going to cost money and still could result in alimony and prizes being given out.

I'd rather keep my 20k plus than waste it on a facade of a wedding. That's money that can be spent on necessities like food and shelter or invested and saved for emergencies or retirement.

 

[hiphopnazi]

Declining birthrate is somewhat related to modern feminism, Hollywood and the music industry. Simply look that all the examples they push onto white young children, look behind these puppets to find the real culprits.

 

[panamaican]

Women are financially independent now and many don't want to sit at home popping out babies. They don't need to be financially dependent on a man. Marriage rates are going way down, especially in urban areas, and it's going to continue. I read an article recently that said something like 45% of 18 year olds in Britain are never going to marry. We all know people from older generations that were stuck in miserable marriages, and plenty of us grew up in those households. So if it's no longer much a necessity, but instead optional to settle down with someone, there is no point in forcing it. That's not a recipe for happiness anyway.

I think a big part of the problem is how many men really believed that their value on the sexual marketplace was directly tied to their income. So without income to fall back on, they don't know another way to view themselves in the sexual marketplace. That's not a problem with society or with women. That's a problem with those guys. But guys in the near future will know not to attach their sexual value to their income and so will find better ways to promote their reproductive attractiveness.

 

[Ornife]

I definitely have a lot of sympathy for young men unable to find meaningful relationships. In my own experience, I've observed that the majority of young men who seemingly struggle in this area either present as being on the spectrum or generally lack positive male role models in their lives.

The solution to the issue seems to be early diagnosis and intervention as well as providing young men with positive male mentorship.

 

[TheGreatA]

Thats one of the solutions he talks about at the end of the video.

I thought porn and all the other bullshit was already supposed to solve it.

The only thing that a "solution" such as this accomplishes, is to make things even worse. Now you'll merely have more sickos who treat the opposite gender as an object to fulfill their desires, and nothing more. Driving them further and further away from a natural relationship between men and women, which requires a certain level of understanding about the desires of the other.

Significant disagreement with your analysis. Not with your facts but with the conclusions you're drawing from the.

Most of the people in this thread are evaluating the current circumstances from the perspective of when they were in the dating world. Men did this, women did that. Men were looking for X. Women were looking for Y. Under that metric, the current system would seem unsustainable. But today's boys and girls aren't growing up with that perspective.

They're growing up in a world where women are more likely to go to college than men. It's not weird to them, it is their normal. They're growing up in a world where girls are more likely than ever to be the primary breadwinner. It's weird for their parents, it's normal for them. With that comes a different set of expectations than what the prior generation would have expected from their relationships.

Anecdotally, I sometimes sit on a Q&A panel for families where the man does more of the home based things. Sometimes the woman travels a lot, even if she doesn't make more money. Sometimes, the woman makes all the money and the husband stays at home. I speak because even though I make more than my wife, my work is more flexible so I take on more things than if I worked in a traditional law firm environment. I'm amazed at how comfortable many of the women in these settings are with the idea that they make more than their spouse or that their spouse doesn't work at all. And these are older women.

The next generation of people won't bat an eyelash at the changes in the sexual economics.

You're completely, utterly clueless if you think that men, or even women for that matter, will ever accept that women become the "primary breadwinners" in society.

At best we might observe some perverse situations of old, wealthy women buying sexual favours from young, jobless men, but this will never become defined the new normal. It is precisely these sorts of circumstances that we can observe in places like Gambia, where old white women travel to in order to have sex with young, African men, living in dire circumstances. Yet even then, the men largely resent and are ashamed of it, partaking only because they have few other alternatives, little power in their possession, to balance things out in their favour.

Just the fact of men having more testosterone in their bodies will mostly prevent this. There will be an outcry against such a condition being imposed upon men, and a movement, probably a violent one, to disturb whatever "balance" has been achieved. The matriarchal state will only, at most, be a very temporary phenomenon. Lasting a generation or two at most, before reactionary forces bring about a new social order.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I think it's a stretch to interpret this archaeological data as: "women only wanted to reproduce with the alpha males". It might be just that some tribes were more powerful and were able to capture lots of slaves and they would reproduce with the females, by force, and let the males work, or just kill them off.
You see a similar pattern in much more recent times in Latin America and to a lesser degree in the US. You have virtually no African or Native Y chromosomes among white people but lots of European Y chromosomes among mestizo or blacks (mixed). Many of these conquerors also had European wives and multiple Native or African concubines, skewing the ratio.
It's likely something similar happened in Eurasia when more advanced agriculturalists fought against hunter gatherers.
When that kind of conflict happened a few of the winner side males would also die and the gender imbalance would be even higher.
100 Romans attack Sabine village, kill 100 Sabine males, lose 20 of their own and capture 100 sabine women. Consider each Roman already had a Roman wife. Now you have 80 Roman males, 100 Roman females and 100 Sabine females.

There is a grain of truth in that some guys will bang anybody, while girls are slightly more selective but it's still easy to get a girl pregnant nowadays. Dangerously, easy. Even athletes, movie stars, politicians and billionaires are not monopolizing all the women.
There is also some truth that during some eras it was easier to maintain a long term marriage, if you were born in 1800 it was almost certain you would marry somebody and be married until the day you die, but that's a lot more to it than just "women are genetically hardwired to reproduce with strong, dominant men who have access to an abundance of resources".

 

[Source]

My interest lies in what the video insinuates will happen in the coming years if the reproductive gap continues to rise. According to the video, and history apparently, its lots of violence.

I get it, every response in this thread is a grade A pussy hound, and these things won't affect your abilitly to smash dimes on the reg, but no one has refuted any of the points. So give me your prediction, or a possible solution to this issue, or just tell me you don't believe this stuff and explain why.

I don’t believe this stuff. He clearly is not a anthropologist. He makes the baseless claim that violence before the social construct of marriage was caused by partnerless men. He claims that more acceptance of sex trade will elevate violence. This is contrary to the evidence that prostitution in the ancient world was more accepted than it has in the modern world and was more violent than today.

Contrary to his opinion masturbation and prostitution will never replace the ill feelings caused by rejection.

 

[Shinobi]

I don't think the problem is any number of men not getting laid. That's been a thing for ever. The real issue here is not getting laid becoming a group identity. That's complete mental poison.

Social media platforms will probably make sure that continues to exist. Heck, we might not have seen worst yet, and there have been mass killings done by incels.

To be fair, everyone is entitled to spend their time among like-minded people. Incels understand each other. Regular people don't understand incels. Believe me, i've talked about it with a few girlfriends, because i've always liked incel culture, for the humour of it, and their responses are usually what incels complain about. They think incels are just guys that need to work on their attitude. Regular people truly don't understand that some men genuinely can't find love/sex. Especially women.

To me the problem is simply their radical ideas about forcing women to do shit. But hey, as long as it's all talk, i can live with it. We certainly aren't gonna create a social system where women have to fuck incels.

 

[MaxMMA]

I thought porn and all the other bullshit was already supposed to solve it.

The only thing that a "solution" such as this accomplishes, is to make things even worse. Now you'll merely have more sickos who treat the opposite gender as an object to fulfill their desires, and nothing more. Driving them further and further away from a natural relationship between men and women, which requires a certain level of understanding about the desires of the other.



You're completely, utterly clueless if you think that men, or even women for that matter, will ever accept that women become the "primary breadwinners" in society.

At best we might observe some perverse situations of old, wealthy women buying sexual favours from young, jobless men, but this will never become defined the new normal. It is precisely these sorts of circumstances that we can observe in places like Gambia, where old white women travel to in order to have sex with young, African men, living in dire circumstances. Yet even then, the men largely resent and are ashamed of it, partaking only because they have few other alternatives, little power in their possession, to balance things out in their favour.

Just the fact of men having more testosterone in their bodies will mostly prevent this. There will be an outcry against such a condition being imposed upon men, and a movement, probably a violent one, to disturb whatever "balance" has been achieved. The matriarchal state will only, at most, be a very temporary phenomenon. Lasting a generation or two at most, before reactionary forces bring about a new social order.

great post

 

[Headkicktoleg]

Go workout instead of reading incel shit.

 

[Shinobi]

Lol. In other words, you have to get a decent job in order to ensure you get married. Just like it ALWAYS was.

Most of these incels think things are hard today because they aren't getting the star treatment from women without ever achieving anything in life.

Tell me this: is there a society on earth where a man with a half decent job can't get a woman?

I know in the US you can. Shit my friend's younger brother has been married THREE times. And he's a fucking idiot. And his job isn't even that good.

A lot of incels are disturbingly ugly. They look weird. Plus, they're often socially awkward. At the end of the day, yes, plenty of men with good jobs can't get women, but it isn't as common as incels think.

Now, there's a difference between EVENTUALLY finding someone willing to date you and having an active sex life and choices. Imagine only one woman likes you, but you don't really like her. Or one woman likes you, but things don't work out, and that's really the only opportunity you got.

I say this is a problem created by men. It's not a women's fault that they get 10 DM's a day asking them if they wanna suck dick. If a guy who is a 7/10 looked at a girl who is a 5/10 and said "nahhh, i wouldn't touch you", their egos wouldn't be so fucking inflated and they would be forced to settle for retarded incels. But that doesn't happen, so incels become internet's problem.

 

[boxingskills]

Women are financially independent now and many don't want to sit at home popping out babies. They don't need to be financially dependent on a man.

Studies show that women either want to work part time or no time, while raising children with a man who works full time. Plus something like 50% of women between 18-35 have less than $500 in savings. So I'm not so sure I agree with you that women (as in more than 50%) are financially independent. They may have more jobs than ever before (pre pandemic) but I don't think the majority of women have any idea of how to be financially independent.

 

[Crom Cruach]

Was TS listening to "The Mac" again?

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I thought porn and all the other bullshit was already supposed to solve it.

The only thing that a "solution" such as this accomplishes, is to make things even worse. Now you'll merely have more sickos who treat the opposite gender as an object to fulfill their desires, and nothing more. Driving them further and further away from a natural relationship between men and women, which requires a certain level of understanding about the desires of the other.



You're completely, utterly clueless if you think that men, or even women for that matter, will ever accept that women become the "primary breadwinners" in society.

At best we might observe some perverse situations of old, wealthy women buying sexual favours from young, jobless men, but this will never become defined the new normal. It is precisely these sorts of circumstances that we can observe in places like Gambia, where old white women travel to in order to have sex with young, African men, living in dire circumstances. Yet even then, the men largely resent and are ashamed of it, partaking only because they have few other alternatives, little power in their possession, to balance things out in their favour.

Just the fact of men having more testosterone in their bodies will mostly prevent this. There will be an outcry against such a condition being imposed upon men, and a movement, probably a violent one, to disturb whatever "balance" has been achieved. The matriarchal state will only, at most, be a very temporary phenomenon. Lasting a generation or two at most, before reactionary forces bring about a new social order.

God, I googled it

 

[TheGreatA]

Lol. In other words, you have to get a decent job in order to ensure you get married. Just like it ALWAYS was.

Most of these incels think things are hard today because they aren't getting the star treatment from women without ever achieving anything in life.

Tell me this: is there a society on earth where a man with a half decent job can't get a woman?

I know in the US you can. Shit my friend's younger brother has been married THREE times. And he's a fucking idiot. And his job isn't even that good.

As I said, getting a decent job is no longer as important a factor to achieving a relationship, since the state as well as women themselves are plenty capable at proving for their own needs, without a male provider being added to the equation. So just having a job, doesn't quite cut it.

There is also the fact that achieving a steady job will become next-to impossible for a large part of men, who previously have relied on the availability of manual labor jobs, many of which are bound to become obsolete, as things go forward. The previous reality of a man working 30-40 years for the same employer is no longer a reality of today, most people are bound to have short-term jobs and unstable income, which contributes to them no longer being deemed as the stable providers that they once may have been (which, again, has been one of the foundations of masculine appeal).

Again, I'm not talking about guys from the 80's or 70's or whatever, who benefited from a wide-open era in many ways, the peak era for a male to be able to achieve certain things in life. A steady job, a loyal wife, kids, house, cars, etc. All of that is a mirage to the generations going forward, it's not happening. We're feeding them bullshit by pretending that it's going to.

Times are bound to become more difficult, and much, much more will be demanded out of men, in order to carve out a respectable character that attracts the opposite gender. That's not altogether a terrible thing, but it is a matter of fact, one that has to be acknowledged. Particularly by those who have benefited from things being stacked in their favour.