In 2005, Top 3 lightweights were better than the ones in 2021.

[Taric]

That's a new excuse from the Pride cult lol.


He was 31 when he came to the UFC.

Gomi was losing to bums in Sengoku before he came to the UFC. Maybe you should've kept better track of his career.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Gomi was losing to bums in Sengoku before he came to the UFC. Maybe you should've kept better track of his career.

I did.

He was #1 when North America didn't have a viable 155 division.


Which Gom was peak Gomi???

 

[Taric]

I did.

He was #1 when North America didn't have a viable 155 division.


Which Gom was peak Gomi???

Gomi was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes before BJ defeated him... and then was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes again before Aurelio defeated him. So I have no idea what you're rambling about in terms of "He was #1 when North America didn't have a viable 155 division." The #1 ranked LW in that time span changed hands every month.

In 2006, for example, the #1 LW was a mixture of Kawajiri, Gomi, and Aoki, and none of them stayed as #1 very long.

 

[pankrat]

Gomi was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes before BJ defeated him... and then was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes again before Aurelio defeated him. So I have no idea what you're rambling about in terms of "He was #1 when North America didn't have a viable 155 division." The #1 ranked LW in that time span changed hands every month.

In 2006, for example, the #1 LW was a mixture of Kawajiri, Gomi, and Aoki, and none of them stayed as #1 very long.

There was a LW in Gomi's prime who is today massively underrated named Shaolin Ribeiro who you can be sure this MartinGibson guy has never heard of but had a legit case to be #1 at the time

 

[Taric]

There was a LW in Gomi's prime who is today massively underrated named Shaolin Ribeiro who you can be sure this MartinGibson guy has never heard of but had a legit case to be #1 at the time

Shaolin/Hellboy/Sato/JZ Cavalcante were definitely all #1 at some point.

Historically LW is a jumbled mess of who was #1... and it's probably BJ's fault for leaving the division at the top tbh

 

[Merlotte's]

Prime Gomi vs Gaethje would have been awesome

FUCK YEAH

 

[Substance Abuse]

Gomi was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes before BJ defeated him... and then was ranked #1 for about 5 minutes again before Aurelio defeated him. So I have no idea what you're rambling about in terms of "He was #1 when North America didn't have a viable 155 division." The #1 ranked LW in that time span changed hands every month.

In 2006, for example, the #1 LW was a mixture of Kawajiri, Gomi, and Aoki, and none of them stayed as #1 very long.

Hey look, this guy knows what he's talking about. Nice.

 

[Fesaine]

I mean if you like Jack Slack

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/10...tatsuya-kawajiri-pride-mma-technique-analysis

Funny that you mention Jack slack because he has said multiple times in his podcast that BJ Penn wouldn't do well in today's LW division. And he always talk about how fast the sport is evolving. So bringing him up doesn't help your case at all.

Seriously you're very ignorant if you think gomi can beat gaethje.

 

[pankrat]

Funny that you mention Jack slack because he has said multiple times in his podcast that BJ Penn wouldn't do well in today's LW division. And he always talk about how fast the sport is evolving. So bringing him up doesn't help your case at all.

Seriously you're very ignorant if you think gomi can beat gaethje.

 

[Taric]

Hey look, this guy knows what he's talking about. Nice.

For people that didn't watch MMA at the time I imagine it's difficult to wrap your brain around the fact there wasn't a clear and obvious #1 LW due to all the elite talent being spread out between a dozen different organizations.

Nowadays it's so simple. The #1 guy has been the UFC champion for a decade.

 

[gluehuffer1776]

prime bj penn would tear through dustin and olive in the same night

 

[pankrat]

Shaolin/Hellboy/Sato/JZ Cavalcante were definitely all #1 at some point.

Historically LW is a jumbled mess of who was #1... and it's probably BJ's fault for leaving the division at the top tbh

Well, I'd say Sato dates back to XX century but yeah, I agree.

 

[pankrat]

I think we're closer in our views than you think.

For instance, I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that LHW and HW are wastelands of talent compared to most of the lighter divisions, and that the evolution I'm talking about is much less prevalent there.





Dan Hardy got a title shot being a far worse wrestler/grappler than Till, in a division full of wrestlers at the time. And that's just one example.

Also, Till managed to defend all of Woodley's takedown attempts when they fought, so I think he's better than you're implying (or, he regressed by Brunson; or, Brunson is actually a much higher caliber grappler than anyone gives him credit for, given his recent run...).




If you'll notice, I focused on Sakurai and Gomi, since I found the OP's comments on their success against the 2021 fighters particularly ludicrous. I even said, "BJ is one thing..."

I don't think a time travelling BJ plucked from his title reign would have the same success in the division of the last few years, but being an ATG, he'd definitely do really well.

Yeah Till is probably not the best example because he got very favourable match making for being Brit as Hardy did.
I refered to Till not just because he made it to a title shot but because he remained ranked for many years and how many wrestlers he faced in that span? Like one in 4 years or not even that?

Regarding Woodley, I dont think he wins fights with his wrestling since his early days in Strikeforce back in 2011 and while his deffensive wrestling is great I dont think he is a very dynamic TD artist, even struggled with them a lot vs Thomson.
Anyways, dealing with a wrestler is not just the TD but how the TD threat inffluence the striking game as well and I dont think Woodley would have landed that in a kickboxing match if you know what I mean

Regarding Brunson, he is in a major org since 2011, was unranked when MW was at his best around 2015 and suddenly in 2021 he is #4, as high as he has ever been.
You might say he evolved a whole lot now in his late 30s but tell me where and against who he proved so because I dont see it honestly. I dont think he proves the division has gotten better, more like the other way around and bu the way:

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Yeah Till is probably not the best example because he got very favourable match making for being Brit as Hardy did.
I refered to Till not just because he made it to a title shot but because he remained ranked for many years and how many wrestlers he faced in that span? Like one in 4 years or not even that?

Regarding Woodley, I dont think he wins fights with his wrestling since his early days in Strikeforce back in 2011 and while his deffensive wrestling is great I dont think he is a very dynamic TD artist, even struggled with them a lot vs Thomson.
Anyways, dealing with a wrestler is not just the TD but how the TD threat inffluence the striking game as well and I dont think Woodley would have landed that in a kickboxing match if you know what I mean

Regarding Brunson, he is in a major org since 2011, was unranked when MW was at his best around 2015 and suddenly in 2021 he is #4, as high as he has ever been.
You might say he evolved a whole lot now in his late 30s but tell me where and against who he proved so because I dont see it honestly. I dont think he proves the division has gotten better, more like the other way around and bu the way:

I think Brunson has improved a reasonable amount at Sanford personally. Possibly not so much in terms of skillset but imo for sure in terms of fight IQ. He used to blitz forward a lot irresponsibly and get countered the shit out of but he's much more measured nowadays and much more focused on using his wrestling and heavy ground and pound to get the job done rather than thinking he's this KO artist.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Yeah Till is probably not the best example because he got very favourable match making for being Brit as Hardy did.
I refered to Till not just because he made it to a title shot but because he remained ranked for many years and how many wrestlers he faced in that span? Like one in 4 years or not even that?

2 between Woodley and Brunson, but as pointed out, he did pretty well defending Woodley. People can regress, or Brunson is better than people assune he is.

You conceded Hardy got a title shit despite being a clearly worse grappler than Till, so I'll move on.

Regarding Woodley, I dont think he wins fights with his wrestling since his early days in Strikeforce back in 2011 and while his deffensive wrestling is great I dont think he is a very dynamic TD artist, even struggled with them a lot vs Thomson.

Woodley was the first person to ever land a TD on Thomson, when grapplers like Rory McDonald failed on all their attempts (and while Rory technically wasn't a college wrestler, he was a hell of an MMA wrestler/grappler who could rag doll Condit, Diaz, et al). You're underestimsting Thomson based on his old man performance against Burns, and possibly forgetting how Woodley manhandled fighters like Condit (and even the ghost of Woodley landed a TD on Colby).

It's pretty clear that Till (and Thomson) were above the Condit/Diaz tier of wrestling/grappling defense you were implying they were at (let alone the Hardy level), at least when they were on their streaks.

Regarding Brunson, he is in a major org since 2011, was unranked when MW was at his best around 2015 and suddenly in 2021 he is #4, as high as he has ever been.
You might say he evolved a whole lot now in his late 30s but tell me where and against who he proved so because I dont see it honestly. I dont think he proves the division has gotten better, more like the other way around and bu the way:

It's pretty clear Brunson is a lot more technical and tactical than he was 6 years ago, similar to how Bisping had evolved by 2015 despite his age and beat Luke Rockhold with no training camp.

I think the Jarod fight will show us where he is, but regarding the Middleweight division talent as a whole, I'd be confident in Whittaker and Izzy beating anyone in the Top 5 from the 2005 - 2015 era a majority of the time (as they were then).

 

[MartinGibson86]

There was a LW in Gomi's prime who is today massively underrated named Shaolin Ribeiro who you can be sure this MartinGibson guy has never heard of but had a legit case to be #1 at the time

Wander Braga was #1 for like 2 years.


He lgot subbed by Gabe Reudiger

 

[mjfan23]

Unfortunately MMA is in a bit of a decline

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

this mf said sakurai

 

[pankrat]

Woodley was the first person to ever land a TD on Thomson, when grapplers like Rory McDonald failed on all their attempts (and while Rory technically wasn't a college wrestler, he was a hell of an MMA wrestler/grappler who could rag doll Condit, Diaz, et al). You're underestimsting Thomson based on his old man performance against Burns, and possibly forgetting how Woodley manhandled fighters like Condit (and even the ghost of Woodley landed a TD on Colby).

It's pretty clear that Till (and Thomson) were above the Condit/Diaz tier of wrestling/grappling defense you were implying they were at (let alone the Hardy level), at least when they were on their streaks.

Not saying Woodley isnt a good wrestler, but when you can only bring him is pretty telling.
Till got a very favourable match up to enter the WW rankings vs Cowboy (evolution?) in 2017, and in 4 years you can only bring Woodley...for the belt.

Any example of a long time top ranked who can compare to that a decade ago? Hardy is not the case

Regarding Woodley, he was always very hard to take down but not that good offensive grappler.

Not sure what mahandling you talk about vs Condit, before the injury. Woodley clinched early and didnt get anything going nor landed anything from there. Then timed well two TDs off exchanges and what happened then?
No GnP, no passing, no nada. Nothing resemblant to Woodley vs WB/Till in the ground.
Woodley outpowered out of subs and after half a minut in both instances, stood up refusing to be in Condit's guard. I dont know what reading you do of stats but I watched the fights, mate.

Woodley wasnt much a TD/ground threat for Marquardt or Rory, who btw got outwrestled to a draw by 40 years old Fitch for the Bellator tittle.

It's pretty clear Brunson is a lot more technical and tactical than he was 6 years ago, similar to how Bisping had evolved by 2015 despite his age and beat Luke Rockhold with no training camp.

I think the Jarod fight will show us where he is, but regarding the Middleweight division talent as a whole, I'd be confident in Whittaker and Izzy beating anyone in the Top 5 from the 2005 - 2015 era a majority of the time (as they were then).

You could be right about Brunson. I dont see those pretty clear technical improvements you talk about but he is definitely more experienced and still a great athlete even though "pretty clear" has declined in speed

2005-2015 is a very long time span. The sport evolved during that decade in upper weightclases way, way more than it did since USADA arrived around 2015.

Im confident that Whittaker and Izzy can beat anyone from any time, they are the two clear best MWs of this generation and I agree that in the grand scheme of things the sport gets better (not necesarily in UFC alone, or not at the same ratio, than in MMA as a whole)

We can be closer in our views than I think but while I dont agree with Fitch regarding "overall ability" as he calls it, I do agree he has a point regarding grappling and the promoter's inffluence. I just think you take for granted certain skills in this "modern" fighters where I dont see such evidence or not to the same extent

I think Brunson has improved a reasonable amount at Sanford personally. Possibly not so much in terms of skillset but imo for sure in terms of fight IQ. He used to blitz forward a lot irresponsibly and get countered the shit out of but he's much more measured nowadays and much more focused on using his wrestling and heavy ground and pound to get the job done rather than thinking he's this KO artist.

You might be right and I guess we will see where Derek stands vs Canonier.

Nodody followed the steps of David Branch who outwrestled Jared in the 1st round of their fight but again, has he been tested much further in that department? I dont write off Brunson in this one, let's see if he shows that improved IQ, definitely shoult not play to be the KO artist in this one.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Not saying Woodley isnt a good wrestler, but when you can only bring him is pretty telling.
Till got a very favourable match up to enter the WW rankings vs Cowboy (evolution?) in 2017, and in 4 years you can only bring Woodley...for the belt.

Any example of a long time top ranked who can compare to that a decade ago? Hardy is not the case

Regarding Woodley, he was always very hard to take down but not that good offensive grappler.

Not sure what mahandling you talk about vs Condit, before the injury. Woodley clinched early and didnt get anything going nor landed anything from there. Then timed well two TDs off exchanges and what happened then?
No GnP, no passing, no nada. Nothing resemblant to Woodley vs WB/Till in the ground.
Woodley outpowered out of subs and after half a minut in both instances, stood up refusing to be in Condit's guard. I dont know what reading you do of stats but I watched the fights, mate.

Woodley wasnt much a TD/ground threat for Marquardt or Rory, who btw got outwrestled to a draw by 40 years old Fitch for the Bellator tittle.



You could be right about Brunson. I dont see those pretty clear technical improvements you talk about but he is definitely more experienced and still a great athlete even though "pretty clear" has declined in speed

2005-2015 is a very long time span. The sport evolved during that decade in upper weightclases way, way more than it did since USADA arrived around 2015.

Im confident that Whittaker and Izzy can beat anyone from any time, they are the two clear best MWs of this generation and I agree that in the grand scheme of things the sport gets better (not necesarily in UFC alone, or not at the same ratio, than in MMA as a whole)

We can be closer in our views than I think but while I dont agree with Fitch regarding "overall ability" as he calls it, I do agree he has a point regarding grappling and the promoter's inffluence. I just think you take for granted certain skills in this "modern" fighters where I dont see such evidence or not to the same extent



You might be right and I guess we will see where Derek stands vs Canonier.

Nodody followed the steps of David Branch who outwrestled Jared in the 1st round of their fight but again, has he been tested much further in that department? I dont write off Brunson in this one, let's see if he shows that improved IQ, definitely shoult not play to be the KO artist in this one.

IIRC Hermansson tried to grapple with Cannonier, but it was a bit like trying to grapple with a brick wall for him.