In 2005, Top 3 lightweights were better than the ones in 2021.

[pankrat]

Wander Braga was #1 for like 2 years.


He lgot subbed by Gabe Reudiger

Muy bien bebé, toma tu caramelo

 

[pankrat]

IIRC Hermansson tried to grapple with Cannonier, but it was a bit like trying to grapple with a brick wall for him.

Yeah, only 1 takedown, Branch got 3.
That's how much he got tested in the grappling department at MW. Not bad, Canonier is legit but I give Brunson a chance.

I think Hermansson had very good grappling chops but is not one of the best wrestlers we've seen in the division, at all.
I think some give too much credit off grappling with Hermansson; you know I like you but to put Vettori in Randy's caliber as a wrestler as I read you not long ago friend... jaja

What a performance by Jack vs Branch though, the foot sweep and the sneaky guillotine.
Strange UFC run for Branch, seems USADA didnt help him

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Yeah, only 1 takedown, Branch got 3.
That's how much he got tested in the grappling department at MW. Not bad, Canonier is legit but I give Brunson a chance.

I think Hermansson had very good grappling chops but is not one of the best wrestlers we've seen in the division, at all.
I think some give too much credit off grappling with Hermansson; you know I like you but to put Vettori in Randy's caliber as a wrestler as I read you not long ago friend... jaja

What a performance by Jack vs Branch though, the foot sweep and the sneaky guillotine.
Strange UFC run for Branch, seems USADA didnt help him

Yeah, Branch's 2nd run was a weird one, was hoping for a lot more. Although tbf Rockhold, Marretta, Hermansson and Cannonier is a hell of a lineup of opponents in retrospect.

I don't think Marvin is in Randy's category as a wrestler btw, I just think he can apply similar grappling pace and pressure, I decided not to reply to that because I try not to get into fantasy matchup arguments as there's no real way of telling who's right so we'd just end up going forever.

In terms of Jack, I don't think he's an amazing wrestler, but once he's actually on top I'd say he has the 2nd nastiest top game at MW behind Rockhold.

 

[pankrat]

Yeah, Branch's 2nd run was a weird one, was hoping for a lot more. Although tbf Rockhold, Marretta, Hermansson and Cannonier is a hell of a lineup of opponents in retrospect.

I don't think Marvin is in Randy's category as a wrestler btw, I just think he can apply similar grappling pace and pressure, I decided not to reply to that because I try not to get into fantasy matchup arguments as there's no real way of telling who's right so we'd just end up going forever.

In terms of Jack, I don't think he's an amazing wrestler, but once he's actually on top I'd say he has the 2nd nastiest top game at MW behind Rockhold.

I get your Randy reference.
I just can't recall any 185lber having any sort of succes clinching with Belfort but rather in lot of danger in that zone.
You need to go back to 2006 vs a young, skilled wresler as Hendo in a competitive affair and I think Belfort 5 years after was a way more solid wrestler seemingly in the juice big time.

So I could see a bigger, skilled wrestler wearing Belfort down but to do so you need to be able to impose ur wrestling in the first place on an enhanced 185lbs Vitor and I dont give Vettori such credit as a wrestler. Vettori is a tough fight for anyone though and maybe we dont know his ceiling yet.

 

[pankrat]

In terms of Jack, I don't think he's an amazing wrestler, but once he's actually on top I'd say he has the 2nd nastiest top game at MW behind Rockhold.

Yup. Maybe Jacare in his prime has a case

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I get your Randy reference.
I just can't recall any 185lber having any sort of succes clinching with Belfort but rather in lot of danger in that zone.
You need to go back to 2006 vs a young, skilled wresler as Hendo in a competitive affair and I think Belfort 5 years after was a way more solid wrestler seemingly in the juice big time.

So I could see a bigger, skilled wrestler wearing Belfort down but to do so you need to be able to impose ur wrestling in the first place on an enhanced 185lbs Vitor and I dont give Vettori such credit as a wrestler. Vettori is a tough fight for anyone though and maybe we dont know his ceiling yet.

I think where I give Marvin the chance is the combination of relentlessness and seeming to have an iron chin. It's a lot to deal with if you don't have either the ability to slow the fight to your pace or the gas tank to hang with him.

 

[pankrat]

I think where I give Marvin the chance is the combination of relentlessness and seeming to have an iron chin. It's a lot to deal with if you don't have either the ability to slow the fight to your pace or the gas tank to hang with him.

Yeah, that's a hard combination to handle for anyone. Let's see how far it gets him and how much last, he impressed me lately

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Not saying Woodley isnt a good wrestler, but when you can only bring him is pretty telling.

Till hasn't had too many fights after Woodley (only fighting 4 times in 3 years), and his only ranked wins before that were Cowboy and Wonderboy.

But that's not the point. The point is that Till wasn't as deficient in grappling as you implied in the first place.

Hardy was far worse at wrestling/grappling, and got a title shot. The only reason he didn't stick around at the top is because he started getting his ass beat by the next two *strikers* they matched him up with (where by contrast, Till got a win over Gastellum).

Regarding Woodley, he was always very hard to take down but not that good offensive grappler.

Woodley isn't an awesome submission artist, but he definitely was a good offensive wrestler whenever he felt like using it.

Not sure what mahandling you talk about vs Condit, before the injury. Woodley clinched early and didnt get anything going nor landed anything from there. Then timed well two TDs off exchanges and what happened then?
No GnP, no passing, no nada. Nothing resemblant to Woodley vs WB/Till in the ground.

Woodley got 3 TDs off of Condit, and controlled him for 3 minutes+ in a fight that didn't even last a full two rounds. Woodley's a wrestler and OK jiu jitsu guy--TDs and control are his bread and butter when those skills are employed.

By contrast, Woodley couldn't take Till down at all. His success on the gound came only after a KD, and then he submitted a rocked Till.

Woodley wasnt much a TD/ground threat for Marquardt or Rory, who btw got outwrestled to a draw by 40 years old Fitch for the Bellator tittle.

Bellator Christian Rory is a shadow of his former self. Come on. Let's not pretend you don't know the grappler he was in his prime, and it says something that he couldn't implement any of those skills after multiple failed TDs against Wonderboy.

You could be right about Brunson. I dont see those pretty clear technical improvements you talk about but he is definitely more experienced and still a great athlete even though "pretty clear" has declined in speed

2005-2015 is a very long time span. The sport evolved during that decade in upper weightclases way, way more than it did since USADA arrived around 2015.

Im confident that Whittaker and Izzy can beat anyone from any time, they are the two clear best MWs of this generation and I agree that in the grand scheme of things the sport gets better (not necesarily in UFC alone, or not at the same ratio, than in MMA as a whole)

We can be closer in our views than I think but while I dont agree with Fitch regarding "overall ability" as he calls it, I do agree he has a point regarding grappling and the promoter's inffluence. I just think you take for granted certain skills in this "modern" fighters where I dont see such evidence or not to the same extent

I don't take it for granted--it's just evident in the stats and displayed techniques.

Fitch seems to long for a time when grapplers could easily take striking specialists down at will, but the game evolved to the point that a larger % of these strikers now learn enough takedown defense to prevent the wrestlers from imposing their will. I'd also say that grappler heavy fighters in general are much more well rounded in this day and age--the "wrestler who can only lay and pray or wall and stall, and only has an overhand right" (much more common in the old days) has been overtaken by grapplers who are much busier with the ground/pound and submissions, while also having more diverse striking.

 

[pankrat]

Till hasn't had too many fights after Woodley (only fighting 4 times in 3 years), and his only ranked wins before that were Cowboy and Wonderboy.

But that's not the point. The point is that Till wasn't as deficient in grappling as you implied in the first place

No, the point is the one that Fitch, who knows better than you and me, did which is that fighters dont get their grappling tested as much as a decade ago.

I bring Till as an example of a guy who sits at the top of the rankings for 4 full years and late 30s Woodley, who was not such a grappling threat and certainly didnt got better wrestler in his late 30s, is the only legit test to the skills Fich is refering to that you can talk about.

You can keep going back to Hardy who was a flash in the pan. Condit fought, apart from Woodley; GSP, Hendricks and Kim in the same span.

Woodley got 3 TDs off of Condit, and controlled him for 3 minutes+ in a fight that didn't even last a full two rounds.

Certainly we dont have as closer views as you thought if that's your take on what we saw on Condit vs Woodley.

By contrast, Woodley couldn't take Till down at all. His success on the gound came only after a KD, and then he submitted a rocked Till.

I definitely don't take the same view from those match ups.
I though that as Till got forced to deal with a TD threat he took the kind of shot he doesnt get hit with in standup contests vs the many great strikers he faced.

I definitely dont see that "manhandling" and "controlling" you talk about vs Condit. I saw a Condit who was in total control in clinch and ground exchanges with Woodley, who wasnt afraid of the TD - rather Woodley didnt want tot stay on his guard - hence didnt mess with his striking as happened to Till in the only occasion he had to deal with a TD threat.

You can paste me some stats and present them as "evidence" but I have eyes and I watched the fights

I'd also say that grappler heavy fighters in general are much more well rounded in this day and age--the "wrestler who can only lay and pray or wall and stall, and only has an overhand right" (much more common in the old days) has been overtaken by grapplers who are much busier with the ground/pound and submissions, while also having more diverse striking.
has been overtaken by grapplers who are much busier with the ground/pound and submissions, while also having more diverse striking.

It's funny because what you call the "old days" in this post-ending rant is basically describing Woodley in the fight we were talking about and doesnt go along with what you seemed to stand for before. It rather sounds what they call recency bias.

And yeah, I agree is what you say in the grand scheme of thing regarding "evolutio", but you definitely take it way too far discrediting the skils of the previous gen and giving full-credit to the most recent comers. Particularly in upper weight-classes.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

No, the point is the one that Fitch, who knows better than you and me, did which is that fighters dont get their grappling tested as much as a decade ago.

Don't appeal to authority, especially when you're referring to a single fighter/coach who's opinion is definitely not shared by the majority of coaches/fighters (some of whom have far keener minds than Fitch, frankly), and who's possible biases favor pushing his own era.

That's certainly not been proven with any actual facts, including actual stats or fight breakdowns.

I bring Till as an example of a guy who sits at the top of the rankings for 4 full years and late 30s Woodley, who was not such a grappling threat and certainly didnt got better wrestler in his late 30s, is the only legit test to the skills Fich is refering to that you can talk about.

You brought up Till as an example that never happened in the old days, and then conceded that Hardy was an even worse example of the same thing happening.

You then tried to deflect by saying Hardy didn't stay that high up in the rankings as long, but that's only because he got the absolute dog shit beat out of him in both of his next two fights against strikers the UFC favorably matched him up with, while Till at least went 1 - 1 against his favorable matchups (and the one he won happened to be against the guy who gave the champ his hardest fight, justifying the position).

You also tried to downplay Woodley's grappling offense to make Till's defense look worse, but we"ll get to that below...

I definitely don't take the same view from those match ups.
I though that as Till got forced to deal with a TD threat he took the kind of shot he doesnt get hit with in standup contests vs the many great strikers he faced.

That's a matter of opinion that may or may not be true. Woodley got that right past Lawler without establishing any TD threat, and quickly.

What is clear, however, is that Till neutralized Woodley's grappling offense in a way almost no one else has (before getting his brain scrambled). Even Colby got taken down once against a completely washed Tyron (who otherwise got completely dominated, of course).

I definitely dont see that "manhandling" and "controlling" you talk about vs Condit. I saw a Condit who was in total control in clinch and ground exchanges with Woodley, who wasnt afraid of the TD - rather Woodley didnt want tot stay on his guard - hence didnt mess with his striking as happened to Till in the only occasion he had to deal with a TD threat.

You can paste me some stats and present them as "evidence" but I have eyes and I watched the fights

Bruh, you don't get to invent what you think control time should be. By every actual MMA rule and standard these guys agreed to fight under--ncluding the way the judges scored the 1st round--Tyron got over 3 minutes of control time in a fight that lasted 7 minutes, and claiming Condit had "total control" of those exchanges is frankly laughable.

It's funny because what you call the "old days" in this post-ending rant is basically describing Woodley in the fight we were talking about and doesnt go along with what you seemed to stand for before. It rather sounds what they call recency bias.

Tyron faced mostly older school fighters in his title run, with the exception of Till, who's turned out to be a wash. He didn't face the Usmans, Colbys, Burns, and Khamzats of his division until later--the ones who truly represent the next gen of skills--and when he did he got destroyed. Sure, some of that had to do with him getting older, but there's no version of Tyron that wouldn't be overwhelmed by these guys.

And yeah, I agree is what you say in the grand scheme of thing regarding "evolutio", but you definitely take it way too far discrediting the skils of the previous gen and giving full-credit to the most recent comers. Particularly in upper weight-classes.

You keep repeating this, even though before we started responding to each other, I posted that the upper weight classes are wastelands that have seen the least evolution compared to the lower ones. I've posted that repeatedly on this thread and others.

I also haven't disparaged the previous eras. I'm just rightfully pointing out that the sport has evolved significantly in training methods, conditioning, and technique, and that fighters like Gomi would get beaten by most of the Top 10 LWs today if he time travelled and fought as he was in his prime.

 

[pankrat]

Don't appeal to authority, especially when you're referring to a single fighter/coach who's opinion is definitely not shared by the majority of coaches/fighters (some of whom have far keener minds than Fitch, frankly), and who's possible biases favor pushing his own era.

That's certainly not been proven with any actual facts, including actual stats or fight breakdowns.


You brought up Till as an example that never happened in the old days, and then conceded that Hardy was an even worse example of the same thing happening.

You then tried to deflect by saying Hardy didn't stay that high up in the rankings as long, but that's only because he got the absolute dog shit beat out of him in both of his next two fights against strikers the UFC favorably matched him up with, while Till at least went 1 - 1 against his favorable matchups (and the one he won happened to be against the guy who gave the champ his hardest fight, justifying the position).

You also tried to downplay Woodley's grappling offense to make Till's defense look worse, but we"ll get to that below...




That's a matter of opinion that may or may not be true. Woodley got that right past Lawler without establishing any TD threat, and quickly.

What is clear, however, is that Till neutralized Woodley's grappling offense in a way almost no one else has (before getting his brain scrambled). Even Colby got taken down once against a completely washed Tyron (who otherwise got completely dominated, of course).





Bruh, you don't get to invent what you think control time should be. By every actual MMA rule and standard these guys agreed to fight under--ncluding the way the judges scored the 1st round--Tyron got over 3 minutes of control time in a fight that lasted 7 minutes, and claiming Condit had "total control" of those exchanges is frankly laughable.




Tyron faced mostly older school fighters in his title run, with the exception of Till, who's turned out to be a wash. He didn't face the Usmans, Colbys, Burns, and Khamzats of his division until later--the ones who truly represent the next gen of skills--and when he did he got destroyed. Sure, some of that had to do with him getting older, but there's no version of Tyron that wouldn't be overwhelmed by these guys.
.

Fitch says that
1 Fighters dont get their grappling tested in their rise to the top.
2. He also say the "overall grappling ability" was superior back in the day because of that.

I dont agree with the 2nd point but certainly has a point in the 1st.

You just want to be advocate of the "evolution" and you refuse to addres any point for what is what. The fact you keep referencing to Hardy for the 15 time in this discussion shows that you are not for an unbiased honest arguing

Hardy got another favourable matchup in Condit after GSP. If he had beat Condit and kept top ranked for years as Till did, and still didnt face any wrestler, it would be a valid exampe. But he didnt. He lost to Condit and Condit fought 4 grappling threats in the same time span Till fought only one.

That's a matter of opinion that may or may not be true. Woodley got that right past Lawler without establishing any TD threat, and quickly.
.

No, that's not matter of opinion.
That's what happened the only time he faced a TD threat and the 2nd time he did his grappling got exposed vs Brunson.

Bruh, you don't get to invent what you think control time should be. By every actual MMA rule and standard these guys agreed to fight under--ncluding the way the judges scored the 1st round--Tyron got over 3 minutes of control time in a fight that lasted 7 minutes, and claiming Condit had "total control" of those exchanges is frankly laughable.




Tyron faced mostly older school fighters in his title run, with the exception of Till, who's turned out to be a wash. He didn't face the Usmans, Colbys, Burns, and Khamzats of his division until later--the ones who truly represent the next gen of skills--and when he did he got destroyed. Sure, some of that had to do with him getting older, but there's no version of Tyron that wouldn't be overwhelmed by these guys.




You keep repeating this, even though before we started responding to each other, I posted that the upper weight classes are wastelands that have seen the least evolution compared to the lower ones. I've posted that repeatedly on this thread and others.

I also haven't disparaged the previous eras. I'm just rightfully pointing out that the sport has evolved significantly in training methods, conditioning, and technique, and that fighters like Gomi would get beaten by most of the Top 10 LWs today if he time travelled and fought as he was in his prime.

Dude you talk about Woodley "manhandling" Condit and pretended to support that with stats.
I watched the fight, that's not manhandling in my book and if you disagree it's cool, we won't agree on here.

I don't know if a younger version of Woodley would have handled these more recent guys good enough to get a W. I doubt it. But I also saw a younger Woodley get dominated by Rory, KTFO by Marquardt and edged out by Shields. Also think WB has a very legit case for a W over him.

 

[TheBulge]

Gomi was another Sakuraba. A fight fixing star. You saw his real worth when he came into the ufc

Don't mind TS he's a girly weaboo.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Fitch says that
1 Fighters dont get their grappling tested in their rise to the top.
2. He also say the "overall grappling ability" was superior back in the day because of that.

I dont agree with the 2nd point but certainly has a point in the 1st.

Except he doesn't.

He claims Point 2 without any evidence, solely to justify his laughable assertion that Point 1 is true (which is really the self-serving purpose of his statements, trying to rebut the obvious fact that his era has been passed by).

Having an actual point would be putting in the work to determine average grappling/clinch time and TD attempts across years and divisions, technical analysis of submissions and reversals in Top 10 fights, etc.

Most of the best coaches, fighters, and analysts in MMA today are on board with the obvious fact that the sport has evolved in all facets compared to the past. For the most part, the very tiny minority saying otherwise tend to be fighters or other figures popular during those previous eras seemingly trying to keep them relevant (though the smartest and best ones like GSP are honest enough to admit the truth).

You just want to be advocate of the "evolution" and you refuse to addres any point for what is what. The fact you keep referencing to Hardy for the 15 time in this discussion shows that you are not for an unbiased honest arguing

I keep referencing Hardy because you keep referencing Till, snd we keep talking about Till because your initial implication about his grappling skills before his current skid was misleading in the first place.

If you want me to bring up examples that are even worse than Hardy's, like Nick Diaz's long Strikeforce win streak (and 4 fight UFC return afterward) of blatantly favorable match ups with not a wrestler in sight until he had to fight GSP, we can do that, too.

Hardy got another favourable matchup in Condit after GSP. If he had beat Condit and kept top ranked for years as Till did, and still didnt face any wrestler, it would be a valid exampe. But he didnt. He lost to Condit and Condit fought 4 grappling threats in the same time span Till fought only one.

Hardy got two favorable matchups against people who were primarily strikers and lost both miserably, just like Till was given two favorable matchups in the same vein but happened to win one to justify his ranking.

The only reason Hardy didn't stay on top like Till is becsuse he couldn't even succeed despite the favoritism, not because he was given greater grappling challenges, which is your entire premise.

No, that's not matter of opinion.
That's what happened the only time he faced a TD threat and the 2nd time he did his grappling got exposed vs Brunson.

You can't say it's not a matter of opinion when Woodley snuck that right hand in to KO the WW champ, who was primarily a striker and hadn't been finished with strikes in 12 years, without establishing any TD threat.

The actual fact is that Till neutralized all of Woodley's grappling offense in a way almost no one else had.

Dude you talk about Woodley "manhandling" Condit and pretended to support that with stats.
I watched the fight, that's not manhandling in my book and if you disagree it's cool, we won't agree on here.

You're not just disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the way control time is actually judged and recorded, based on the established rules.

Woodley literally cotrolled him for 3 minutes of that fight based on those standards. No official stat compiler or judge would consider Condit in "total control" of those engagements like you claimed, except for perhaps people like Adeline fucking Byrd.

 

[Chomsky Honk]

who wins prime BJ or prime Sakurai