In 2005, Top 3 lightweights were better than the ones in 2021.

[VitorReem]

I love how

(a) the posters who're rightfully pointing out that the elite fighters in the deepest divisions today are superior to fighters from 16 years ago use a lot of technical analysis about technique and concrete stats to prove their points conclusively

(B) the old school meathead response to all these facts is "Derp, you must not have watched Pride" and maybe some isolated GIFs from old school fighters' best moments and new school fighters' worst.

Gomi literally fought at half the pace of Gaethje (and I mean literally half in terms of significant strikes landed per minute), had 20% worse accuracy, used worse footwork, threw less sophisticated combos, had a worse finishing rate, and had less tools to use in the standup overall.

He's still entertaining to watch when flipping through old Pride vids, but let's be real, bro.

That’s all well and good but those stats and numbers are irrelevant between generations and you know it.

and nothing you said about gomi means he would lose the fight. Justin got laid out by Eddie Alvarez come on stop pretending he’s miles and miles better.

Several old gen fighters that haven’t been good for years have been successful in today’s mma.

the whole “evolution of the sport” thing is true to an extent and as a general statement applied to all fighters but there have been many special talents that could compete and win against these guys in several divisions.

You can’t actually watch the bum ass fights we have all the time and really believe there’s been some massive generational leap that’s too great to overcome. It’s just not true.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

That’s all well and good but those stats and numbers are irrelevant between generations and you know it.

That's bullshit.

Stats like title defenses, "top 10" wins, and win streaks can be irrelevant between divisions and eras, becasue roster depths, strength of schedule, etc. can vary significantly.

However, stats like strikes per minute, accuracy, and observations on what fighters display in the cage are a direct guage of their fighting ability--especially when both fighters have a long record in the best orgs.

If Gomi had the conditioning, stamina, and overall ability to fight at Justin's pace while maintining power and 60% accuracy without tiring out, he would've (it would've made the fights more exciting and given him a better guarantee of a win). If he'd had learned the skills to throw more complex combinations, or broaden his variety of strikes, he would've. Etc.

and nothing you said about gomi means he would lose the fight. Justin got laid out by Eddie Alvarez come on stop pretending he’s miles and miles better.

Eddie would've probably beaten Gomi, too, for similar reasons. And that's besides the fact that Justin got better after that fight (even in the Chandler fight, he went back to being more technical by the last couple minutes of Round 1).

And everything I said would mean Gomi would likely lose a fight with Justin a majority of the time, but there are no guarantees Justin would win every single time.

the whole “evolution of the sport” thing is true to an extent and as a general statement applied to all fighters but there have been many special talents that could compete and win against these guys in several divisions.

I agree. Aldo (who I'd argue is still close to his prime) has grown leaps and bounds technically, constantly improving his technique. A time traveling GSP would've adapted quickly, and was already ahead of his time.

OTOH, a time travelling Gomi or Sakurai would get beaten by most of the LW Top 10 right now, with the exception of maybe Tony (only depending on how washed he is).

You can’t actually watch the bum ass fights we have all the time and really believe there’s been some massive generational leap that’s too great to overcome. It’s just not true.

Sure, if you compare the best fighters then to the worst fighters now, it may look like that.

But the worst fights of 2005 look like middle school fights posted on r/fightporn compared to the "bum" fights now, and the Top 10 of the last few years in most divisions look miles ahead of the 2005 Top 10s in terms of conditioning and technique.

That's not even an opinion. That's concrete fact.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

That’s all well and good but those stats and numbers are irrelevant between generations and you know it.

and nothing you said about gomi means he would lose the fight. Justin got laid out by Eddie Alvarez come on stop pretending he’s miles and miles better.

Several old gen fighters that haven’t been good for years have been successful in today’s mma.

the whole “evolution of the sport” thing is true to an extent and as a general statement applied to all fighters but there have been many special talents that could compete and win against these guys in several divisions.

You can’t actually watch the bum ass fights we have all the time and really believe there’s been some massive generational leap that’s too great to overcome. It’s just not true.

Believe in the evolution of mma fighters today are better than in the past.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

That's bullshit.

Stats like title defenses, "top 10" wins, and win streaks can be irrelevant between divisions and eras, becasue roster depths, strength of schedule, etc. can vary significantly.

However, stats like strikes per minute, accuracy, and observations on what fighters display in the cage are a direct guage of their fighting ability--especially when both fighters have a long record in the best orgs.

If Gomi had the conditioning, stamina, and overall ability to fight at Justin's pace while maintining power and 60% accuracy without tiring out, he would've (it would've made the fights more exciting and given him a better guarantee of a win). If he'd had learned the skills to throw more complex combinations, or broaden his variety of strikes, he would've. Etc.




Eddie would've probably beaten Gomi, too, for similar reasons. And that's besides the fact that Justin got better after that fight (even in the Chandler fight, he went back to being more technical by the last couple minutes of Round 1).

And everything I said would mean Gomi would likely lose a fight with Justin a majority of the time, but there are no guarantees Justin would win every single time.




I agree. Aldo (who I'd argue is still close to his prime) has grown leaps and bounds technically, constantly improving his technique. A time traveling GSP would've adapted quickly, and was already ahead of his time.

OTOH, a time travelling Gomi or Sakurai would get beaten by most of the LW Top 10 right now, with the exception of maybe Tony (only depending on how washed he is).




Sure, if you compare the best fighters then to the worst fighters now, it may look like that.

But the worst fights of 2005 look like middle school fights posted on r/fightporn compared to the "bum" fights now, and the Top 10 of the last few years in most divisions look miles ahead of the 2005 Top 10s in terms of conditioning and technique.

That's not even an opinion. That's concrete fact.

we are comparing the best fighters of 2005 not the worst, mma evolution is overrated Pedro Rizzo Prime would destroy the 2021 LHW Champion.

 

[kkthx]

I cannot believe that for once I agree with one of the worst posters I have ever seen in this forum

 

[Evangelion]

we are comparing the best fighters of 2005 not the worst, mma evolution is overrated Pedro Rizzo Prime would destroy the 2021 LHW Champion.

Pedro Rizzo was a hw and no he would not beat Glover.

Ufc 2005 champs

Hw Arlovski
Lhw Chuck
Mw Rich Franklin
Ww Matt Hughes

Safe to say that yes fighters have improved

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Believe in the evolution of mma fighters today are better than in the past.

Why do you keep posting cherry picked, tiny little GIFs as if that proves anything?

The stats we're talking about are actually a comprehensive analysis of their entire performances, and it goes beyond looking at these individual fighters. *On average*, pace, stance switching, footwork, etc. have improved across the board.

we are comparing the best fighters of 2005 not the worst, mma evolution is overrated Pedro Rizzo Prime would destroy the 2021 LHW Champion.

I was addressing his specific point about there being "bum fights" now. Even the bum fights now are better than the absolute embarrassments in the early 2000s.

I agree, though, that LHW is an absolute embarrassment at the moment compared to the other divisions, and HW isn't too much better past the Top 5. Those are the two weight classes that I'd agree have seen the least improvement.

OTOH, most of the other divisions are leaps and bounds ahead of where they were 16 years ago, overall.

 

[Prutfis]

Prime Gomi hit like a Heavyweight.

And a Mark Hunt´esque skull to boot.

 

[Franklin U.]

This is so freekn funny and " most " fans are either dumb or they let their fandom get in the way of being objective. The lighter clases ( 155 and down) are now the more evolved / better fighter as we approach 2022. Its 170 & up where depth is an enormous problem.

Even without khabib , todays top 4 lightweights are as good as it has ever been.

 

[pankrat]

Why do you keep posting cherry picked, tiny little GIFs as if that proves anything?

The stats we're talking about are actually a comprehensive analysis of their entire performances, and it goes beyond looking at these individual fighters. *On average*, pace, stance switching, footwork, etc. have improved across the board.




I was addressing his specific point about there being "bum fights" now. Even the bum fights now are better than the absolute embarrassments in the early 2000s.

I agree, though, that LHW is an absolute embarrassment at the moment compared to the other divisions, and HW isn't too much better past the Top 5. Those are the two weight classes that I'd agree have seen the least improvement.

OTOH, most of the other divisions are leaps and bounds ahead of where they were 16 years ago, overall.

Note that every "objective meausre" of evolution that you talk about refer to standup fighting. But this is MMA not kickboxing.

Jon Fitch recently spoke about this "evolution" thing. Bascally says that
"Fighters are better athletes but less technically sound than used to because a lot of the ground and grappling training has been abandoned for the show of standup and being flashy to favour the promoters"

I even made a thread about it:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-overall-ability-has-dropped-in-mma-jon-fitch.4135947/

For the record, Fitch is a leading guy of a a leading MMA gym worlwide. He started his MMA career in 2002 and still fought for the belt in a major org a couple years ago. He certainly knows a thing or two about this "evolution of the sport" since he has lived through it first hand.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Note that every "objective meausre" of evolution that you talk about refer to standup fighting. But this is MMA not kickboxing.

I focused on those only because of most the fighters being analyzed in this thread. If we'd been talking about, say, Khabib, Islam, Khamzat, et al, then I'd probably highlight the evolution of grappling a lot more.

Jon Fitch recently spoke about this "evolution" thing. Bascally says that
"Fighters are better athletes but less technically sound than used to because a lot of the ground and grappling training has been abandoned for the show of standup and being flashy to favour the promoters"

I even made a thread about it:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-overall-ability-has-dropped-in-mma-jon-fitch.4135947/

For the record, Fitch is a leading guy of a a leading MMA gym worlwide. He started his MMA career in 2002 and still fought for the belt in a major org a couple years ago. He certainly knows a thing or two about this "evolution of the sport" since he has lived through it first hand.

Fitch has a great resume and deserves a lot of respect, but even that's bullshit, and plenty of other experienced fighters/coaches disagree.

(1) Both eras had strikers with more rudimentary jiu-jitsu skills, but the difference is that those guys tend to have much better wrestling and takedown defense now (e.g. better overall grappling), and so don't have to test submission weaknesses.

(2) The rising prominence of Eastern European / Russian fighters in alone is a pretty big rebuttal of Fitch's point, and their grappling skills are far more well rounded and sophisticated than the "wrestler with basic jiu-jitsu" or "jiu-jitsu guy with shitty takedowns" divide you used to see far more often in the 2000s vs the 2010s.

(3) That well roundedness isn't even limited to fighters from that geographical area. Grappling skills overall trend toward being more comprehensive nowadays.

 

[pankrat]

I focused on those only because of most the fighters being analyzed in this thread. If we'd been talking about, say, Khabib, Islam, Khamzat, et al, then I'd probably highlight the evolution of grappling a lot more.




Fitch has a great resume and deserves a lot of respect, but even that's bullshit, and plenty of other experienced fighters/coaches disagree.

(1) Both eras had strikers with more rudimentary jiu-jitsu skills, but the difference is that those guys tend to have much better wrestling and takedown defense now (e.g. better overall grappling), and so don't have to test submission weaknesses.

(2) The rising prominence of Eastern European / Russian fighters in alone is a pretty big rebuttal of Fitch's point, and their grappling skills are far more well rounded and sophisticated than the "wrestler with basic jiu-jitsu" or "jiu-jitsu guy with shitty takedowns" divide you used to see far more often in the 2000s vs the 2010s.

(3) That well roundedness isn't even limited to fighters from that geographical area. Grappling skills overall trend toward being more comprehensive nowadays.

I agree with what you say. Coaches work towards more effective routines and fighters benefit from it plus the talent pool is deeper.
I just think you take such evolution way too far from reading u in this thread, specially in upper weight classes.

I dont agree entirely with Fitch but he has a point. Till can get a tittle shot and two tittle eliminators without barely having his grappling tested. You'd focus on his superior standup but back in the day what Brunson did would've happened sooner.
USADA is also a handicap for that evolution btw.

I dont agree with TS neither, but not giving BJ a decent chance vs any LW today because of evolution is silly imo.

 

[DoctorsStoppage]

He was throwing Hadoukens and shit.

legend

 

[VinceArch]

 

[randomg1t]

Prime Gomi vs Gaethje would have been awesome

i honestly think 2004 / 2005 gomi eats him alive.

gomi had bricks in his fists and for a while showed a pretty impressive chin. bad match up for gaethje, to be honest.

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

Dustin would run through all three of them.

 

[tramendous]

That's a new excuse from the Pride cult lol.


He was 31 when he came to the UFC.

He was already down hill and racking up losses before he came.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

I agree with what you say. Coaches work towards more effective routines and fighters benefit from it plus the talent pool is deeper.
I just think you take such evolution way too far from reading u in this thread, specially in upper weight classes

I think we're closer in our views than you think.

For instance, I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that LHW and HW are wastelands of talent compared to most of the lighter divisions, and that the evolution I'm talking about is much less prevalent there.

I dont agree entirely with Fitch but he has a point. Till can get a tittle shot and two tittle eliminators without barely having his grappling tested. You'd focus on his superior standup but back in the day what Brunson did would've happened sooner.
USADA is also a handicap for that evolution btw.

Dan Hardy got a title shot being a far worse wrestler/grappler than Till, in a division full of wrestlers at the time. And that's just one example.

Also, Till managed to defend all of Woodley's takedown attempts when they fought, so I think he's better than you're implying (or, he regressed by Brunson; or, Brunson is actually a much higher caliber grappler than anyone gives him credit for, given his recent run...).

I dont agree with TS neither, but not giving BJ a decent chance vs any LW today because of evolution is silly imo.

If you'll notice, I focused on Sakurai and Gomi, since I found the OP's comments on their success against the 2021 fighters particularly ludicrous. I even said, "BJ is one thing..."

I don't think a time travelling BJ plucked from his title reign would have the same success in the division of the last few years, but being an ATG, he'd definitely do really well.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

gomi had bricks in his fists and for a while showed a pretty impressive chin. bad match up for gaethje, to be honest.

Gaethje has a higher finishing rate than Gomi, even if you isolate Gomi's record to Pride. If we isolate Gaethje's stats to just his UFC fights, the disparity is even worse for Gomi.

Justin is superior to him in almost every metric you can measure.

 

[TitoSchaubHighIQ]

The athletes today are much more prepared physically and technically

but as far as pure talent go: yes, I think those top 3 from that time are more gifted fighters than the current top 3

However the sport used to be very top heavy back in the day. Apart from the very elite, the rest were not that good. If you pick the top 15 today, they are way better than the top 15 from that time.