Immigration: What do you think and which candidate do you agree with most?

[Jack V Savage]

Then what's the point of INA law, billion dollars wall, border patrol agents, etc.

Just make U.S. an open border country if illegal immigration is a victimless crime

The point is that people don't like immigration that isn't authorized by the state and want to stop it. I think that we want to keep track of who is in the country and get people into the system. But no one is hurt by someone else entering the country without authorization.

 

[Zankou]

Well, the enforcement budget is up 75% in real terms over the last decade, and the number of agents has doubled. That's likely a factor in the reduction. But economics would be a bigger factor. The point is that it's all much ado about nothing. The real immigration problem (aside from our excessively low level of immigration) is that we already have something like your vile "tiered citizenship" idea so we need to offer a path to citizenship for the folks who are already here.

Sure. Whatever the cause, it's not a real problem. It's a victimless crime (actually benefits the nation) that not many people are committing.

Of course we already have it, which is why I'm calling it what it is. Our contemporary political discourse lacks the ability to be forthright about it -- most leftists (actually I have met many who openly advocate free immigration and citizenship, so I won't say all) don't want to up and admit that they advocate removing any serious limitations on immigration and citizenship (nor that this might have any negative social impact, for immigration can only be condemned when conceptualized as an influx of 'foreign white' oppressors, although Asians recently seem to be making inroads on that precious category). Rightists don't want to admit that their position is already completely controlled by capital interests, and that the entire immigration system is premised on radical social stratification, which is its point, and which they enjoy the benefits of.

The entire discourse is fake-as-fuck, on both right and left, which is why it spins in circles of sanctimony.

 

[2GunTommy]

The total number of unauthorized immigrants in America has actually dropped by 1 million since 2007.

And here comes the propaganda machine. You cant actually believe that. I mean quantifying that is probably close to impossible, but common sense would indicate otherwise. This sounds like more disinformation spreading. Something that someone who wants people to ignore the problem would say. You know, like someone who goes on coffee runs for the Clinton campaign.

 

[5H3RD0G]

Both seem to have no good plan for the border that works long term. A wall, have they not seen the underground tunnels drug dealers move product and people. :icon_chee NEXT

 

[Jack V Savage]

Of course we already have it, which is why I'm calling it what it is. Our contemporary political discourse lacks the ability to be forthright about it -- most leftists (actually I have met many who openly advocate free immigration and citizenship, so I won't say all) don't want to up and admit that they advocate removing any serious limitations on immigration and citizenship (nor that this might have any negative social impact, for immigration can only be condemned when conceptualized as an influx of 'foreign white' oppressors, although Asians recently seem to be making inroads on that precious category). Rightists don't want to admit that their position is already completely controlled by capital interests, and that the entire immigration system is premised on radical social stratification, which is its point, and which they enjoy the benefits of.

The entire discourse is fake-as-fuck, on both right and left, which is why it spins in circles of sanctimony.

Meh. I see this whining on behalf of whites as a form of sanctimony and it's also fake (in that the presented arguments aren't the real reason for your position). A step above Moldbuggery, IMO. Every wave of immigrants has brought fear-mongering about how it's going to cause irreparable "negative social impacts," and none have previously done anything more than make some superficial and mostly positive changes to the culture. So of course it's possible that this time will be different, but you'll understand my skepticism.

And here comes the propaganda machine. You cant actually believe that. I mean quantifying that is probably close to impossible, but common sense would indicate otherwise.

That's what all the research I've seen on the subject says. Is your gainsaying based on anything other than your own emotions?

 

[2GunTommy]

no politician, Republican or Democrat that has sat in the oval office has been serious about "securing the border."

The fix is clearly in. The border is meant to be porous. You'll have many politicians talk about "tough borders" and talks about these policies but in the end they'll do nothing.

Even GWB with a majority in both houses did nothing.

Like Michael Savage said, "Clinton may have opened the doors to illegals, but Bush jr took the door off the hinges.

Trump, despite his far fetched idea has finally broached a serious conversation on the matter. Nobody ever has had the balls to say what he has about our border situation and illegal problem...

This. Both political parties benefit in one way or another and neither has ever made a legitimate attempt to stop it because of that. Trump is the first one to say what many Americans have felt for awhile. Enough is enough.

Well, the enforcement budget is up 75% in real terms over the last decade, and the number of agents has doubled. That's likely a factor in the reduction. But economics would be a bigger factor. The point is that it's all much ado about nothing. The real immigration problem (aside from our excessively low level of immigration) is that we already have something like your vile "tiered citizenship" idea so we need to offer a path to citizenship for the folks who are already here.



Sure. Whatever the cause, it's not a real problem. It's a victimless crime (actually benefits the nation) that not many people are committing.

The Obama administration has done nothing but promote more illegal immigration. Bullshit numbers about how much the budget is up as if that had anything to do with results says nothing. What says more is his amnesty and how that encourages more illegals. And the numbers saying they are deporting more than ever are skewed also.

Of course we already have it, which is why I'm calling it what it is. Our contemporary political discourse lacks the ability to be forthright about it -- most leftists (actually I have met many who openly advocate free immigration and citizenship, so I won't say all) don't want to up and admit that they advocate removing any serious limitations on immigration and citizenship (nor that this might have any negative social impact, for immigration can only be condemned when conceptualized as an influx of 'foreign white' oppressors, although Asians recently seem to be making inroads on that precious category). Rightists don't want to admit that their position is already completely controlled by capital interests, and that the entire immigration system is premised on radical social stratification, which is its point, and which they enjoy the benefits of.

The entire discourse is fake-as-fuck, on both right and left, which is why it spins in circles of sanctimony.

Good post. I agree there are many who would like to institute free immigration and citizenship but will not admit it (JVS)

Meh. I see this whining on behalf of whites as a form of sanctimony and it's also fake (in that the presented arguments aren't the real reason for your position). A step above Moldbuggery, IMO. Every wave of immigrants has brought fear-mongering about how it's going to cause irreparable "negative social impacts," and none have previously done anything more than make some superficial and mostly positive changes to the culture. So of course it's possible that this time will be different, but you'll understand my skepticism.



That's what all the research I've seen on the subject says. Is your gainsaying based on anything other than your own emotions?

No its based on common sense and what we all can see every day in this country. Id go on those two things more than fake numbers from deceitful administrations. And just to make you feel better I blame Bush (both sr and jr) just as much or more than the current administration.

 

[panamaican]

And here comes the propaganda machine. You cant actually believe that. I mean quantifying that is probably close to impossible, but common sense would indicate otherwise. This sounds like more disinformation spreading. Something that someone who wants people to ignore the problem would say. You know, like someone who goes on coffee runs for the Clinton campaign.

You don't believe that the number of illegal immigrants has gone down because we can't quantify it? Then how are we quantifying the number of illegal immigrants to begin with?

Maybe it's disinformation that we even have an illegal immigrant problem. People want to exaggerate the problem to force through policy changes.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

My personal opinion is that we should give current illegals a simple path to citizenship while updating our laws (directly and tangentially related) while truly securing our southern border. Then moving forward we strictly enforce the laws; zero waivering.

There are a lot of people who will pretend it's either 1. Not an issue at all and/or 2. It's racist to argue the point. I know I've argued from both of those positions to a certain degree in the past. (I think a lot of the anti-immigration crowd is racist and I think legal immigration is an essential part of America's success).

I think when we just focus on Immigration as an isolated topic we do the debate a disservice.

If you address the greater narrative of the ill effects, source, and potential of illegal immigration by including America's path toward oligarchy, the War on Drugs, and our ""free" trade" agreements like NAFTA, TPP, TTiP, and TiSA you start to see the full picture.

I support Bernie Sanders.
Here is his official policy on Illegal Immigration.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

I'm not in lockstep with him here, and I don't like that he doesn't have a proposal to stem illegal immigration.


When I see the GOP speaking to immigration I see it as just fanning the flames of bigotry with zero intentions of addressing the issue. It's their Gay Marriage 2016 distraction platform. When I see the Dems talking to it it's more of an open border mentality, which I'm sure the GOP will adopt eventually as "a means to become relevant again".

Here is more Bernie, he addresses where we're going if we don't make changes right at the beginning.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

The total number of unauthorized immigrants in America has actually dropped by 1 million since 2007.

And this is based on what? And what caused the self-deportation?

Mexico's booming economy?

 

[Jack V Savage]

The Obama administration has done nothing but promote more illegal immigration. Bullshit numbers about how much the budget is up as if that had anything to do with results says nothing. What says more is his amnesty and how that encourages more illegals. And the numbers saying they are deporting more than ever are skewed also.

What makes the numbers "bullshit"? Just your imagination.

Good post. I agree there are many who would like to institute free immigration and citizenship but will not admit it (JVS)

I would make legal immigration much easier and more common if I could. My problem with just opening it up is that we can't keep track of everyone and people who aren't in the system get mistreated (the "tiered citizenship" Zank was talking about).

No its based on common sense and what we all can see every day in this country.

So it's common sense that rather than 11 million unauthorized immigrants here, the real number is higher than 12.2 million? WTF?

Id go on those two things more than fake numbers from deceitful administrations. And just to make you feel better I blame Bush (both sr and jr) just as much or more than the current administration.

I don't care as much as you do about partisan politics. Let's get things right and then figure out what to do.

And this is based on what? And what caused the self-deportation?

Mexico's booming economy?

Pew Research, if you're asking for the main source (confirmed by others, though) for the decline. And the causes appear to be primarily the recession and secondarily increased border security.

 

[2GunTommy]

You don't believe that the number of illegal immigrants has gone down because we can't quantify it? Then how are we quantifying the number of illegal immigrants to begin with?

Maybe it's disinformation that we even have an illegal immigrant problem. People want to exaggerate the problem to force through policy changes.

I believe our govt has had no intention of stopping illegal immigration for a long time. Both left and right are guilty. However that obviously cant be told to the people so we get theatrics from the right like building over priced fences never meant to actually stop anything and rhetoric. Lobbyists wont let it happen. There is billions being made off the backs of these people and politicians who are bought and paid for will continue to work for their masters rather than do what is actually beneficial to the US citizens.

 

[oldshadow]

The point is that people don't like immigration that isn't authorized by the state and want to stop it. I think that we want to keep track of who is in the country and get people into the system. But no one is hurt by someone else entering the country without authorization.

So the money they cost in support is not hurting anyone?

 

[Denter]

The point is that people don't like immigration that isn't authorized by the state and want to stop it. I think that we want to keep track of who is in the country and get people into the system. But no one is hurt by someone else entering the country without authorization.

Here's what I don't get Jack: I've been told by many people that immigration is a net positive (and I've read articles to the contrary as well), but we've let something like 70 million people into the country since 1965. Since the early 70s, wages for the working class have stagnated. Is there seriously no correlation between these two events?

How can increasing the supply of labor be good for poor people?

 

[panamaican]

I believe our govt has had no intention of stopping illegal immigration for a long time. Both left and right are guilty. However that obviously cant be told to the people so we get theatrics from the right like building over priced fences never meant to actually stop anything and rhetoric. Lobbyists wont let it happen. There is billions being made off the backs of these people and politicians who are bought and paid for will continue to work for their masters rather than do what is actually beneficial to the US citizens.

I was more addressing your outright dismissal that the numbers might have gone down since they can't be quantified.

The gov't has no intention of stopping illegal immigration because the America people generally don't have a real problem with it.The reason isn't that they're liberal or anything like that. The problem is that the GOP has turned immigration reform into identity politics. They've sought to demonize the people who come illegally by painting them as negatively as possible.

It's an asinine strategy.

Why? Because the legality of people's entry isn't what makes them positive/negative people. I learned a decent lesson about trial strategy that I think applies here: If your case is dependent on painting the other guy as evil, you're going to lose because very few people are actually evil. Most people are regular people who made a bad decision.

When you tell the world that illegal immigrants are evil, country destroying people and then the imagery shows men and women and little kids struggling to survive - you've lost credibility. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, people can't side with you because you're not trustable anymore.

If we'd left the immigration conversation focused the importance of the rule of law, of efficient use of resources, etc. instead of on how the immigrants would steal our jobs, commit rampant crime and refuse to talk to us in English (ie -they're evil people who don't belong here), we would have had better success.

this is something the GOP has gotten wrong over and over again. They've tried to demonize people to persuade on issues. But people can now see those supposed demons, realize that they're not the monsters they're portrayed as, and suddenly the GOP's credibility on the subject takes a big hit.

 

[Jack V Savage]

So the money they cost in support is not hurting anyone?

The costs are minimal for the first generation, and then there is a longer-term positive effect.

Here's what I don't get Jack: I've been told by many people that immigration is a net positive (and I've read articles to the contrary as well), but we've let something like 70 million people into the country since 1965. Since the early 70s, wages for the working class have stagnated. Is there seriously no correlation between these two events?

How can increasing the supply of labor be good for poor people?

The middle class wage stagnation really started in 2000 if you make apples-to-apples comparisons (adjusting for family size, among other things). There was actually pretty good growth in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. But you're asking a more general question. It's both the supply of and demand for labor that increase with immigration. You need to look more closely to see which effect is dominant in a specific time and place.

 

[ultramanhyata]

How can increasing the supply of labor be good for poor people?

For poor, current American citizens? It can't...

And the vid Anung posted is a great representation of a real, pragmatic, old-school American liberal (Sanders) versus the sort of new-school, emotionally triggered, faux-liberal we see in much of the young, American "left" today.

 

[Denter]

The middle class wage stagnation really started in 2000 if you make apples-to-apples comparisons (adjusting for family size, among other things). There was actually pretty good growth in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. But you're asking a more general question. It's both the supply of and demand for labor that increase with immigration. You need to look more closely to see which effect is dominant in a specific time and place.

But couldn't you increase the value of labor by squeezing the supply down a bit? It seems to make intuitive sense.

 

[panamaican]

Here's what I don't get Jack: I've been told by many people that immigration is a net positive (and I've read articles to the contrary as well), but we've let something like 70 million people into the country since 1965. Since the early 70s, wages for the working class have stagnated. Is there seriously no correlation between these two events?

How can increasing the supply of labor be good for poor people?

There's no correlation because the amount of immigrants we admit, legal or not, has no control over international labor markets and it has no control of innovations in productivity.

Letting in 70 million immigrants isn't why China's labor is cheap or India's. It's not why the computer automated so many low skilled jobs. Letting in immigrants didn't cause factories to relocate overseas. Working class wages stagnated because the need for the U.S. working class stagnated.

We can try to blame immigration but it's really the global economy and technology to blame.

 

[2GunTommy]

My personal opinion is that we should give current illegals a simple path to citizenship while updating our laws (directly and tangentially related) while truly securing our southern border. Then moving forward we strictly enforce the laws; zero waivering.

There are a lot of people who will pretend it's either 1. Not an issue at all and/or 2. It's racist to argue the point. I know I've argued from both of those positions to a certain degree in the past. (I think a lot of the anti-immigration crowd is racist and I think legal immigration is an essential part of America's success).

I think when we just focus on Immigration as an isolated topic we do the debate a disservice.

If you address the greater narrative of the ill effects, source, and potential of illegal immigration by including America's path toward oligarchy, the War on Drugs, and our ""free" trade" agreements like NAFTA, TPP, TTiP, and TiSA you start to see the full picture.

I support Bernie Sanders.
Here is his official policy on Illegal Immigration.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

I'm not in lockstep with him here, and I don't like that he doesn't have a proposal to stem illegal immigration.


When I see the GOP speaking to immigration I see it as just fanning the flames of bigotry with zero intentions of addressing the issue. It's their Gay Marriage 2016 distraction platform. When I see the Dems talking to it it's more of an open border mentality, which I'm sure the GOP will adopt eventually as "a means to become relevant again".

Here is more Bernie, he addresses where we're going if we don't make changes right at the beginning.

Yup and thats the problem in a nut shell. Oligarchy. Ive seen that Bernie video and was just looking for it to show JVS. Its all about them making more money while the citizens get screwed. Id also say its about having a country with citizens that are more easily controlled as central and south American immigrants would be. Also agreed that Bernie doesnt really come forward with anything that will stop it.

What makes the numbers "bullshit"? Just your imagination.



I would make legal immigration much easier and more common if I could. My problem with just opening it up is that we can't keep track of everyone and people who aren't in the system get mistreated (the "tiered citizenship" Zank was talking about).



So it's common sense that rather than 11 million unauthorized immigrants here, the real number is higher than 12.2 million? WTF?



I don't care as much as you do about partisan politics. Let's get things right and then figure out what to do.



Pew Research, if you're asking for the main source (confirmed by others, though) for the decline. And the causes appear to be primarily the recession and secondarily increased border security.

What makes those numbers bullshit is that they are coming from a govt that has no interest in stopping illegal immigration because they profit from it. (See Bernies video posted by Anung)

I agree that people who arent in the system are gravely mistreated but thats why i say all illegal immigration needs to stop now (among other reasons).

I see the logic in saying that the economy is a reason for lower rates of illegals, but i say this. Do you think that some poverty stricken person is saying "Well i was going to go to America for a better life for my family, but I see here in the Wall Street Journal that things arent going so well, so maybe we should just stay here with the murdering drug cartels and food shortages" ? Regardless of how things are going here, its 1000x better than where they are.

 

[2GunTommy]

I was more addressing your outright dismissal that the numbers might have gone down since they can't be quantified.

The gov't has no intention of stopping illegal immigration because the America people generally don't have a real problem with it.The reason isn't that they're liberal or anything like that. The problem is that the GOP has turned immigration reform into identity politics. They've sought to demonize the people who come illegally by painting them as negatively as possible.

It's an asinine strategy.

Why? Because the legality of people's entry isn't what makes them positive/negative people. I learned a decent lesson about trial strategy that I think applies here: If your case is dependent on painting the other guy as evil, you're going to lose because very few people are actually evil. Most people are regular people who made a bad decision.

When you tell the world that illegal immigrants are evil, country destroying people and then the imagery shows men and women and little kids struggling to survive - you've lost credibility. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, people can't side with you because you're not trustable anymore.

If we'd left the immigration conversation focused the importance of the rule of law, of efficient use of resources, etc. instead of on how the immigrants would steal our jobs, commit rampant crime and refuse to talk to us in English (ie -they're evil people who don't belong here), we would have had better success.

this is something the GOP has gotten wrong over and over again. They've tried to demonize people to persuade on issues. But people can now see those supposed demons, realize that they're not the monsters they're portrayed as, and suddenly the GOP's credibility on the subject takes a big hit.

I agree that demonizing people isnt the answer. They are mostly good people wanting a better way of life and not only do i not blame them for coming, but ill say that if i were them i would get here anyway i could also. But see thats part of the agenda here. Dont really tackle the issue, just throw rhetoric at the people and make it seem hateful to want to stop it that way many will actually support it. See where im going with this ? Keep the whole "they are rapists and murders" story going and before you know it Americans will be defending them and be blind to the real damage it is causing them. That is the only reason that some Americans "dont have a real problem with it" We are being lied to and manipulated to accept and promote it.