Lol, I meant how are immigrant unambiguously beneficial in the long run? Does this apply specifically to illegal immigrants, particularly those who come through the Southern border?
In the short run, you're balancing the increase in labor supply with the increase in demand that results from adding low-skill workers. In the longer run, you're just increasing the native-born population and the overall productivity of the economy. If you look at it empirically, you find the same thing:
In the short run, you're balancing the increase in labor supply with the increase in demand that results from adding low-skill workers. In the longer run, you're just increasing the native-born population and the overall productivity of the economy. If you look at it empirically, you find the same thing:
I dont think anyone is arguing against legal migration or even in increase in quotas. And if indeed the migrants add to our economy, illegal or legal wont make a difference in that regard, but why should we reward line cutters? This is more a law and order, fabric of society type debate.
Plus you wanna increase the economy, lets just annex some desirable parts of Mexico. We can get the people and the valuable resources of the land too now
I dont think anyone is arguing against legal migration or even in increase in quotas. And if indeed the migrants add to our economy, illegal or legal wont make a difference in that regard, but why should we reward line cutters? This is more a law and order, fabric of society type debate.
I got you. It's kind of silly, given that net unauthorized immigration has been negative for eight years now, though, no? Let's move on to the next problem.
Plus you wanna increase the economy, lets just annex some desirable parts of Mexico. We can get the people and the valuable resources of the land too now
Plus you wanna increase the economy, lets just annex some desirable parts of Mexico. We can get the people and the valuable resources of the land too now
How about we just encourage a vote in desirable Mexican states? It'd be as legit as any other state that's joined The United States of America (and more so than any of the ones who did and then were prevented from leaving).
On one hand I have zero issues with creating a second class citizenry. Cheap labor and economic stimulus, as long as they don't receive any sort of benefits. We also need population growth if we plan to provide citizens with entitlements in the future.
On the other hand the stress they put on services such as health care and education is not worth the penance they "contribute"
I disagree with this for some very simple reasons. I think most people are full of it on this evil corporation rhetoric. People vote with their wallets. They've proven over and over again that they don't want to do certain jobs for what those jobs are worth - they want $10 for a $5 job. They don't want to pay certain prices for products and the labor required to create them.
They do this and the corporations respond. They respond by hiring migrants to work the farms so the cost of food in the U.S. is lower than almost any other developed nation. They outsource labor so that our goods are cheaper than we have any right to expect. They do all of this and then people start complaining about how it gets done.
Corporations aren't the problem. They're just easy to blame. You want to stop illegal immigration? Get rid of the minimum wage, pay more in taxes and be willing to pay more for goods and services.
Americans can't have it both ways. We can't have tons of cheap crap but expect top dollar wages to produce it.
The old "Americans wont do those jobs for that pay" argument ? Its not that we want to be over payed, its that the corps would rather pay slave labor and we wont accept that. And we shouldnt. They should be given incentives and pressured to keep jobs here and pay livable wages to American citizens if they want to make billions doing business with us. All there is to it. Would the cost of product go up ? Maybe. Then again maybe the corps would have to accept making a little less? Or maybe Americans wouldnt care if they were paying slightly more for some items if they had good jobs instead of sending them away. Paying cheap prices at Wal Mart means nothing if you dont have a job. Greedy corps and their lobbyists are a big part of the problem.
Not necessarily. It could reduce the value, increase it, or leave it unchanged. As I said, it has effects on both the supply and the demand. I think in the long run, it's an unambiguous positive for the economy, and in the short run, it depends.
That's the kind of thing that makes it clear that Bernie is either pandering to shallow thinkers or hasn't thought the issue through enough himself.
The source is not the gov't.
According to you. In reality, incentives matter. Not everyone was moving here even in the 1990s, when the U.S. economy was seriously booming (though there was much higher rates of immigration than now, which is inconsistent with the stories being spun here). When the economy slows down, the incentives change even more.
So let's just assume that the reality is much higher than any data show?
So when Bernie says that the koch brothers are pressuring politicians through lobbyists to make sure that illegal immigration continues in order to reap the benefits of cheap slave labor, you think he is wrong ?
Im a mexican businessowner, i have a driver who earns USD $10 a day, he has a visa and family in California, yet he doesnt leaves and stays to work for $10 a day, clearly the life of the illegal isnt that glamorous and the life of the mexican worker so shitty as to make such venture obvious.
Yes, Mexico has violence issues, just like Detroit and New Orleans, yet people also live in those cities. About food shortages? funny, considering that we are toe to toe with America in obesity levels.
I didnt specify Mexico when i mentioned food shortages. We are getting more and more illegals from other countries also.
Im not sure how your anecdotal story of your driver says how illegal immigration isnt a problem ? I never said the life of an illegal was glamorous ? Im sure that not everyone there is as lucky as your driver though and the life of an illegal might be better for some than what they have there no ?
I didnt specify Mexico when i mentioned food shortages. We are getting more and more illegals from other countries also.
Im not sure how your anecdotal story of your driver says how illegal immigration isnt a problem ? I never said the life of an illegal was glamorous ? Im sure that not everyone there is as lucky as your driver though and the life of an illegal might be better for some than what they have there no ?
Building a huge wall on the border is stupid. They should go after the employers who hire the illegals. Make it impossible for them to get work and they'll stop coming but there's always going to be people that want the cheap labor so there's always going to be a steady flow of illegals. I never understood why people see an issue with people wanting to move here who want to improve the lives of their families but give employers a free pass. Those legal Americans are breaking the law just as much as the undocumented workers.
Immigration at this point is not a dire issue, however, if it keeps up it will be in 25 years.
What we need to do doesn't take a Politician to point out. We need to cut some federal spending in order to allocate more funds to border states that can keep more agents and police vigilant on the border. We need to enforce e-verify globally to point where second offenders can face jailtime. We need to stop giving federal aid of any kind to illegals and tax them forwardly by a new security number or whatever is best to mark them in addition to a minimal back tax that can increase exponentially depending on if their arrival date is documented.
This is just the start but honestly this is the least of my concerns.
The biggest problem is that we have Mexico, a 3rd world country, direct neighbors with the home of the free. For awhile there I would say the drug war made Mexico just as bad if not worse than the Middle East.
You had the Los Zetas running around Juarez chopping off their head, dick and balls and hanging them from bridges upside down in broad day light. What normal person wouldn't be running from that? You go down south on the borders it's like the Wild West, illegals are running in left and right and a lot of them are associated with the cartel in some way cause there's no economy over there.
There's really no simple solution we have with Mexico. We can actually start enforcing the immigration laws but we'd probably have to load up on more man power. There certainly is no easy answer.
The old "Americans wont do those jobs for that pay" argument ? Its not that we want to be over payed, its that the corps would rather pay slave labor and we wont accept that. And we shouldnt. They should be given incentives and pressured to keep jobs here and pay livable wages to American citizens if they want to make billions doing business with us. All there is to it. Would the cost of product go up ? Maybe. Then again maybe the corps would have to accept making a little less? Or maybe Americans wouldnt care if they were paying slightly more for some items if they had good jobs instead of sending them away. Paying cheap prices at Wal Mart means nothing if you dont have a job. Greedy corps and their lobbyists are a big part of the problem.
Like I said, most people are full of it and you are too.
I said that people want $10 for a $5 job and your response is that Americans deserve a livable wage. I'm sorry but not every job is worth a livable wage. It's this entitlement mentality that pushes jobs overseas and creates a job market for illegal immigrants. The idea that corporations should just accept making less is stupid. Corporations are made up of Americans. The same Americans that you say shouldn't accept making less on their wages. Corporations should accept less but the Americans who those corporations are paying should not accept less.
If you want to pay people more than the jobs are worth and you're fine with the price of goods going up then you need to realize that the welfare system will have to be far more robust than it currently is. So, we need to pay more taxes. No business is going to hire and overpay a bunch of employees they don't need. So there will be fewer job opportunities and that means that the state will have to step in more aggressively.
If you're fine with that, great. But you're posting implies that you think corporations will overpay employees, not raise prices accordingly, and still hire tons of extra people to keep unemployment low. I suppose if some magical fairyland where economic decisions are made from the goodness of people's hearts and money doesn't matter....
But until people accept the realities of producing cheap goods or of employing a nation, corporations will keep hiring illegal labor because it's the only way to meet consumer demand.
I was in India discussing something similar with a former member of their government. In a shoe store, there was an employee who helped me pick the shoe I liked, an employee who got the shoes from the back, a different employee who helped me try the shoe on, a different employee who rung up the purchase and yet another employee who bagged the purchase.
So I asked - why so much redundant labor?
Because it's the only way to keep people employed. They had huge concerns about technological improvement because it meant people would lose work so instead they turned every little thing into a separate job and paid shit wages. If they wanted to pay your so-called "livable wage" they'd have to fire 3 of the 5 employees and give their salaries to the remaining 2. That's the economic realities of a world where physical labor is no longer tied to the production of goods.
So when Bernie says that the koch brothers are pressuring politicians through lobbyists to make sure that illegal immigration continues in order to reap the benefits of cheap slave labor, you think he is wrong ?
Like I said, most people are full of it and you are too.
I said that people want $10 for a $5 job and your response is that Americans deserve a livable wage. I'm sorry but not every job is worth a livable wage. It's this entitlement mentality that pushes jobs overseas and creates a job market for illegal immigrants. The idea that corporations should just accept making less is stupid. Corporations are made up of Americans. The same Americans that you say shouldn't accept making less on their wages. Corporations should accept less but the Americans who those corporations are paying should not accept less.
If you want to pay people more than the jobs are worth and you're fine with the price of goods going up then you need to realize that the welfare system will have to be far more robust than it currently is. So, we need to pay more taxes. No business is going to hire and overpay a bunch of employees they don't need. So there will be fewer job opportunities and that means that the state will have to step in more aggressively.
If you're fine with that, great. But you're posting implies that you think corporations will overpay employees, not raise prices accordingly, and still hire tons of extra people to keep unemployment low. I suppose if some magical fairyland where economic decisions are made from the goodness of people's hearts and money doesn't matter....
But until people accept the realities of producing cheap goods or of employing a nation, corporations will keep hiring illegal labor because it's the only way to meet consumer demand.
I was in India discussing something similar with a former member of their government. In a shoe store, there was an employee who helped me pick the shoe I liked, an employee who got the shoes from the back, a different employee who helped me try the shoe on, a different employee who rung up the purchase and yet another employee who bagged the purchase.
So I asked - why so much redundant labor?
Because it's the only way to keep people employed. They had huge concerns about technological improvement because it meant people would lose work so instead they turned every little thing into a separate job and paid shit wages. If they wanted to pay your so-called "livable wage" they'd have to fire 3 of the 5 employees and give their salaries to the remaining 2. That's the economic realities of a world where physical labor is no longer tied to the production of goods.
Seriously though you think manufacturing jobs should pay $5 hr ? And if i disagree its because of an entitlement mentality ? Jobs are sent overseas due to greed. Not a bunch of entitled workers expecting too much, holy crap. And maybe the compensation in some of these corporations is a little top heavy, no ? Just a thought. And maybe i feel that these companies making billions doing business with Americans should be pressured into keeping jobs here. Perfectly rational expectation. I never said pay people more than they are worth, I said pay Americans fair wages instead of paying foreigners slave wages. See the difference ?
And again I will say that paying a little more for certain goods is acceptable when people have decent jobs. Very short sided on your part to not see that. How will the welfare system need to be more robust when more jobs are kept in the country? You make no sense. Because a car will cost a few thousand more we will have to expand welfare ? No because there will be less people on welfare when those jobs stay here, right ? So, no we will not have to pay more taxes for welfare either. More jobs, less welfare, less taxes payed into welfare. Seriously you sound like a PR guy for some large corporation with that crap. "Uummm yeah more jobs for the people will hurt the people in the long run. uuuuum i know you dont understand that but its kinda complicated, just trust us. We have done studies"
I don't understand how all products would go up in price all of a sudden if minimum wage went up. The point of capitalism is to have competition. If one business spiked the price on its products and used wages as an excuse then other companies will willingly sell their products cheaper so they can sell more. I just don't believe in these fear tactics that the rich love to use to keep the little man down.
Violence/Genocide: Do not condone violence or genocide on a person or group of people. You are free to attack a person or groups ideas but you are crossing the line when calling for violence. This will be heavily enforced in threads with breaking news involving victims.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.