Immigration: What do you think and which candidate do you agree with most?

[GearSolidMetal]

Pew Research, if you're asking for the main source (confirmed by others, though) for the decline. And the causes appear to be primarily the recession and secondarily increased border security.

They're estimations. There's not a way to know for sure how many have come in, or left.

 

[panamaican]

I agree that demonizing people isnt the answer. They are mostly good people wanting a better way of life and not only do i not blame them for coming, but ill say that if i were them i would get here anyway i could also. But see thats part of the agenda here. Dont really tackle the issue, just throw rhetoric at the people and make it seem hateful to want to stop it that way many will actually support it. See where im going with this ? Keep the whole "they are rapists and murders" story going and before you know it Americans will be defending them and be blind to the real damage it is causing them. That is the only reason that some Americans "dont have a real problem with it" We are being lied to and manipulated to accept and promote it.

I don't think that's the agenda at all. I think the GOP adopted a strategy of demonizing people as a means to a political end. It made sense when people rarely saw or interacted with people who weren't from their neck of the woods so they were more dependent on 3rd party representations. But those days are gone. We see gay people on tv, we see illegal immigrants, we see people in the 'hood and they are too often sympathetic figures. The actual issues do get lost, I agree with you on that.

But it's not immigration that has hurt the America workforce. Factories didn't leave the U.S. because we had too much labor. We don't automate trading because of too much labor. Wal-Mart isn't successful because of too much labor. Amazon isn't putting local stores out of business because of too much cheap labor.

These things happened because of the rise of the truly global economy and technology. But people don't know how to fight cheap Chinese labor, or fully automated assembly lines so they're targeting the only thing they understand - more people in the workforce.

 

[2GunTommy]

I don't think that's the agenda at all. I think the GOP adopted a strategy of demonizing people as a means to a political end. It made sense when people rarely saw or interacted with people who weren't from their neck of the woods so they were more dependent on 3rd party representations. But those days are gone. We see gay people on tv, we see illegal immigrants, we see people in the 'hood and they are too often sympathetic figures. The actual issues do get lost, I agree with you on that.

But it's not immigration that has hurt the America workforce. Factories didn't leave the U.S. because we had too much labor. We don't automate trading because of too much labor. Wal-Mart isn't successful because of too much labor. Amazon isn't putting local stores out of business because of too much cheap labor.

These things happened because of the rise of the truly global economy and technology. But people don't know how to fight cheap Chinese labor, or fully automated assembly lines so they're targeting the only thing they understand - more people in the workforce.

Well see its not one or the other, its both. The GOP will pander to their base while fulfilling the agenda. They and their corporate cronies benefit too much from illegals to ever truly put an end to it. So pander away while actually doing nothing about it.

I agree that immigration obviously isnt the only factor here. Just one of them. But factories left the US because of bullshit trade deals and a govt that did nothing to stop them from doing so, not because of the rise of the truly global economy. Those jobs could have stayed if we had a govt that was interested in protecting US citizens interests over the interests of corporations and foreign countries.

 

[panamaican]

Well see its not one or the other, its both. The GOP will pander to their base while fulfilling the agenda. They and their corporate cronies benefit too much from illegals to ever truly put an end to it. So pander away while actually doing nothing about it.

I agree that immigration obviously isnt the only factor here. Just one of them. But factories left the US because of bullshit trade deals and a govt that did nothing to stop them from doing so, not because of the rise of the truly global economy. Those jobs could have stayed if we had a govt that was interested in protecting US citizens interests over the interests of corporations and foreign countries.

I disagree with this for some very simple reasons. I think most people are full of it on this evil corporation rhetoric. People vote with their wallets. They've proven over and over again that they don't want to do certain jobs for what those jobs are worth - they want $10 for a $5 job. They don't want to pay certain prices for products and the labor required to create them.

They do this and the corporations respond. They respond by hiring migrants to work the farms so the cost of food in the U.S. is lower than almost any other developed nation. They outsource labor so that our goods are cheaper than we have any right to expect. They do all of this and then people start complaining about how it gets done.

Corporations aren't the problem. They're just easy to blame. You want to stop illegal immigration? Get rid of the minimum wage, pay more in taxes and be willing to pay more for goods and services.

Americans can't have it both ways. We can't have tons of cheap crap but expect top dollar wages to produce it.

 

[Rod1]

Well see its not one or the other, its both. The GOP will pander to their base while fulfilling the agenda. They and their corporate cronies benefit too much from illegals to ever truly put an end to it. So pander away while actually doing nothing about it.

I agree that immigration obviously isnt the only factor here. Just one of them. But factories left the US because of bullshit trade deals and a govt that did nothing to stop them from doing so, not because of the rise of the truly global economy. Those jobs could have stayed if we had a govt that was interested in protecting US citizens interests over the interests of corporations and foreign countries.

LOL, no fucking wonder its so easy to control people. So easy to redirect their hate.

 

[Jack V Savage]

But couldn't you increase the value of labor by squeezing the supply down a bit? It seems to make intuitive sense.

Not necessarily. It could reduce the value, increase it, or leave it unchanged. As I said, it has effects on both the supply and the demand. I think in the long run, it's an unambiguous positive for the economy, and in the short run, it depends.

Yup and thats the problem in a nut shell. Oligarchy. Ive seen that Bernie video and was just looking for it to show JVS.

That's the kind of thing that makes it clear that Bernie is either pandering to shallow thinkers or hasn't thought the issue through enough himself.

What makes those numbers bullshit is that they are coming from a govt that has no interest in stopping illegal immigration because they profit from it.

The source is not the gov't.

I see the logic in saying that the economy is a reason for lower rates of illegals, but i say this. Do you think that some poverty stricken person is saying "Well i was going to go to America for a better life for my family, but I see here in the Wall Street Journal that things arent going so well, so maybe we should just stay here with the murdering drug cartels and food shortages" ? Regardless of how things are going here, its 1000x better than where they are.

According to you. In reality, incentives matter. Not everyone was moving here even in the 1990s, when the U.S. economy was seriously booming (though there was much higher rates of immigration than now, which is inconsistent with the stories being spun here). When the economy slows down, the incentives change even more.

They're estimations. There's not a way to know for sure how many have come in, or left.

So let's just assume that the reality is much higher than any data show?

 

[GearSolidMetal]

So let's just assume that the reality is much higher than any data show?

For the sake of arguement, that the data's right, and the amount of illegals was lowered by a million.

It sounds like the problem is solved, and there's nothing to do.

Nope, there's still 10+ million of them here we need to get rid of.

 

[Rod1]

For the sake of arguement, that the data's right, and the amount of illegals was lowered by a million.

It sounds like the problem is solved, and there's nothing to do.

Nope, there's still 10+ million of them here we need to get rid of.

And it could be solved if the US had a comprehensive immigration reform so that legal immigrants were enough to cover all US labour needs, that way there would be no jobs left for illegals.

 

[Rod1]

I see the logic in saying that the economy is a reason for lower rates of illegals, but i say this. Do you think that some poverty stricken person is saying "Well i was going to go to America for a better life for my family, but I see here in the Wall Street Journal that things arent going so well, so maybe we should just stay here with the murdering drug cartels and food shortages" ? Regardless of how things are going here, its 1000x better than where they are.

Im a mexican businessowner, i have a driver who earns USD $10 a day, he has a visa and family in California, yet he doesnt leaves and stays to work for $10 a day, clearly the life of the illegal isnt that glamorous and the life of the mexican worker so shitty as to make such venture obvious.

Yes, Mexico has violence issues, just like Detroit and New Orleans, yet people also live in those cities. About food shortages? funny, considering that we are toe to toe with America in obesity levels.

 

[Denter]

Im a mexican businessowner, i have a driver who earns USD $10 a day, he has a visa and family in California, yet he doesnt leaves and stays to work for $10 a day, clearly the life of the illegal isnt that glamorous and the life of the mexican worker so shitty as to make such venture obvious.

Yes, Mexico has violence issues, just like Detroit and New Orleans, yet people also live in those cities. About food shortages? funny, considering that we are toe to toe with America in obesity levels.

You wanna take us on in obesity? We are the #1 P4P champ, bro (pun intended). You'll get destroyed. No one out-eats us, no one.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

And it could be solved if the US had a comprehensive immigration reform so that legal immigrants were enough to cover all US labour needs, that way there would be no jobs left for illegals.

'Comprehensive Immigration Reform' serves two purposes, for each side of the Washington Establishment.

1. Gives citizenship to illegal immigrants, so they can vote, and have a big influence on local, state, and national elections. That helps Democrats win office.

2. Cheap labor for businesses, that don't want to pay the labor costs for Americans to do it. Republicans with corporations that donate to their campaigns.




If you want illegals to be completely cut out of the country's work force, make E-Verify a federal requirement for all businesses to check the citizenship of an employee, with strict penalities if they don't comply.

Even better - do the same with landlords having to verify the citizenship of their renters, and of course, with strict penalities if they've been housing illegal immigrants on property they own.

 

[Rod1]

You wanna take us on in obesity? We are the #1 P4P champ, bro (pun intended). You'll get destroyed. No one out-eats us, no one.

Pff, we most likely outeat you, but we are a third world country, so a lot of our people still do hard, manual labour which lowers the obesity index.

If anything our immigrants is whats causing American obesity to beat us again, too many fat mexicans and too many taco stands.

 

[Rod1]

'Comprehensive Immigration Reform' serves two purposes, for each side of the Washington Establishment.

1. Gives citizenship to illegal immigrants, so they can vote, and have a big influence on local, state, and national elections. That helps Democrats win office.

2. Cheap labor for businesses, that don't want to pay the labor costs for Americans to do it. Republicans with corporations that donate to their campaigns.

Wouldnt republican opposition for immigration give them more votes than political donations?

If you want illegals to be completely cut out of the country's work force, make E-Verify a federal requirement for all businesses to check the citizenship of an employee, with strict penalities if they don't comply.

Even better - do the same with landlords having to verify the citizenship of their renters, and of course, with strict penalities if they've been housing illegal immigrants on property they own.

People who benefit from illegals also vote, so its more complicated than that.

Politicians know that, America loves cheap labour even if it hates illegals, so the sensible solution is changing illegals for legal immigrants.

 

[Jack V Savage]

For the sake of arguement, that the data's right, and the amount of illegals was lowered by a million.

It sounds like the problem is solved, and there's nothing to do.

Nope, there's still 10+ million of them here we need to get rid of.

That's a different issue. Border security isn't currently a problem in America. I agree that we should help the 11 million unauthorized immigrants here get citizenship, though.

'Comprehensive Immigration Reform' serves two purposes, for each side of the Washington Establishment.

1. Gives citizenship to illegal immigrants, so they can vote, and have a big influence on local, state, and national elections. That helps Democrats win office.

2. Cheap labor for businesses, that don't want to pay the labor costs for Americans to do it. Republicans with corporations that donate to their campaigns.

1. I don't think anyone thinks in those terms, in reality.

2. Even that, I think, is too cynical.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Not necessarily. It could reduce the value, increase it, or leave it unchanged. As I said, it has effects on both the supply and the demand. I think in the long run, it's an unambiguous positive for the economy, and in the short run, it depends.

How so?

 

[Jack V Savage]

How so?

Can you be more specific?

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Can you be more specific?

What be tis unambiguous positive for the economy in the long run?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Can you be more specific?

Lol, I meant how are immigrant unambiguously beneficial in the long run? Does this apply specifically to illegal immigrants, particularly those who come through the Southern border?

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Wouldnt republican opposition for immigration give them more votes than political donations?



People who benefit from illegals also vote, so its more complicated than that.

Politicians know that, America loves cheap labour even if it hates illegals, so the sensible solution is changing illegals for legal immigrants.

Then the repubs will just go for corp money, and the cheap labor loving Murican vote. Or they either table the issue some way or to oppose it only in rhetoric.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Pff, we most likely outeat you, but we are a third world country, so a lot of our people still do hard, manual labour which lowers the obesity index.

If anything our immigrants is whats causing American obesity to beat us again, too many fat mexicans and too many taco stands.

true true, Mexicans can get pretty darn fat.

They do manual labor here in the state too, but still get plump. I have been to Teejay recently, it does not seem like they do any work down there. The infrastructure needs a serious overhaul like a decade ago, but hasn't. And there is so much food around, and street hotdogs and burgers and tacos.