Hypothetical: Volk doesn't fight Islam and stays at FW

[xhaydenx]

Just rewatched Mendes/McGregor recently and Chad looks like absolute shit in that fight lol

He was cooked very quickly lol. Got tired doing pretty easy wrestling that wouldn't have bothered him normally.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

He was cooked very quickly lol. Got tired doing pretty easy wrestling that wouldn't have bothered him normally.

I think he knew coming in how bad of shape he was in and he was in trouble. Didn't look confident and looked completely deflated by the time Conor got back up after a couple of takedowns talking shit.

 

[Alpha_T83]

What is there to argue when you dismiss wins against top 3 opponents in the weight class at the time because of what company it was in? You realize fighters across all promotions were ranked by outlets and they said the WEC had the best 145 lb fighters in the world. And you say those wins mean less because they weren't in the UFC. You are the one making fantastic arguments

There weren't as many 145 pound fighters back then. The WEC was breaking ground with smaller weight classes, where the premier MMA orgs like the UFC and PRIDE were not doing so. Hence, the division was thin on talent. Volk's wins against Mendes and Aldo (non-title fights) are better quality than half of Aldo's title defenses.

Aldo never beat anyone as good as himself or Max Holloway. His best win was Frankie Edgar, and Volk beat Aldo x1 and Holloway x3. Volk easily wins the quality argument.

This comes down to quality vs quantity. And at the end of the day, Aldo had a losing record from ages 29-33 when he should have still been in his prime. People argue "fight miles" BS, but Volk had a rugby career and plenty of miles on his body before he started his pro MMA career.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Well, I don't know about those other threads or what people are saying in regards to Conor, but I definitely don't think like that about him lol, especially in regards to his FW history. Some losses at LW and WW don't change any of that for me. Apology accepted. Was confusing me why you thought that stuff at first haha.

But I do think there's a massive difference between beating short notice Chad in a fight he was losing for Conor in a fight that was just for an interim belt, vs taking out a fully prepared Max in an actual title defense for Topuria. I don't think following the 145 run by winning the 155 title means anything in regards to Conor's place at FW. Same way Volk losing to Islam doesn't mean anything to his legacy at FW.

I think it's too early for Topuria. It's easier said than done to maintain the success he's had in the long run.

He has a big challenge ahead of him, either eventually fighting Arman Tsarukyan, or going up to 170 pounds. Either way, I'm not sold on him being the greatest of all time yet.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

if you think "fight miles" are BS you are genuinely retarded and I have nothing to discuss with you when it comes to this sport lmfao

 

[xhaydenx]

I think it's too early for Topuria. It's easier said than done to maintain the success he's had in the long run.

He has a big challenge ahead of him, either eventually fighting Arman Tsarukyan, or going up to 170 pounds. Either way, I'm not sold on him being the greatest of all time yet.

I highly doubt he'll fight long enough to really cement anything like that. He's already got a shit ton of cash, and he doesn't really seem to care too much about defending belts and having that sort of legacy. It sorta feels to me like he'll either goad Islam into finally fighting him or he won't and he'll lose interest and retire within a couple fights.

 

[xhaydenx]

I think he knew coming in how bad of shape he was in and he was in trouble. Didn't look confident and looked completely deflated by the time Conor got back up after a couple of takedowns talking shit.

It wasn't even really that Conor got back up. Chad went for that gilly because he was panicking with how fast he was fading. I think he mentioned in an interview that he was freaking out a bit and just went for it lol.

He was dead on his feet the moment it got back to the feet after that. The kicks to the body he'd been eating hadn't helped matters either lol.

 

[BFoe]

I'm willing to separate quantitative vs qualitative arguments. I recognized your argument that quantitatively Aldo had 8 UFC title fight wins, and Volk only has 7. Normally I'm against arguing "X era is stronger than Y era", but this an exception. The 145 division was paper thin when it came to the UFC. I'm sorry but Hominick went 0-4 in the UFC and then retired. This is not your strongest argument, trying to defend Hominick and Florian and title defenses. Qualitatively, Volk has a massive edge in quality of competition.

Again, when you're trying to defend guys like Roop and Gamburyan at the title fight level, there's a problem in your argument. Neither guy has any business being discussed even in a top 10 capacity when compared to modern UFC top 10 fighters. KZ, Yair Rodruigez, and Brian Ortega would absolutely demolish Hominick, Roop, Gamburyan, and KFlo when comparing era vs era, because again, the 145 pound division was paper thin in the WEC & early UFC days.

That’s certainly not how it went when Korean Zombie fought George Roop. KZ came to the UFC from WEC, where he had lost his last 2 fights—to Leonard Garcia and George Roop.
Now in fairness the Garcia fight is major robbery. But Roop straight up one shot KOed Zombie, out cold.
And Korean Zombie is one of Volk’s 5 defenses.

But still, KZ had a great UFC career. So did Cub Swanson, who beat guys like Charles Oliveira and Dustin Poirier. Hell, Poirier himself came from the WEC and had a great UFC career. Sure some fighters are better than others and whatnot—I’m just saying, you very much have a skewed perception that WEC guys just aren’t as good as today’s UFC guys, and it really isn’t true.

PRIDE is maybe an outlier in that group. I would agree that PRIDE had enough money involved to be a truly world class organization. For example, I agree with arguments that Fedor is the GOAT @ heavyweight overall, because the best heavyweights were arguably in PRIDE*. It's a shame Fedor wasn't able to come over to the UFC immediately with Cro Cop and the others. I have a feeling he would have smashed not only Couture but Lesnar as well.

Agree about Fedor.
But after PRIDE folded, a lot of other orgs picked up steam as they acquired that talent. Strikeforce became a great org, Affliction only held two events but had a great roster, EliteXC had good fighters…

But with that said, the 135 & 145 pound divisions simply weren't deep enough in the WEC. And WMMA has the same problem in general, even in today's UFC. That's why WMMA fighters like Valentina and Nunes aren't mentioned in overall GOAT talks when DJ, GSP, Jon Jones, etc. are brought up: There is an intuitive, fundamental understanding that their divisions simply aren't as deep and competitive as the men's divisions. It's not sexist, it's just reality.

That’s not why I don’t mention women when ranking male GOATs, I think there are too many comparisons to make that aren’t apples-to-apples. Look how much we’re going back and forth about FW GOAT between Aldo and Volk—trying to figure out where Cris Cyborg’s resume fits in that conversation just adds whole new layers of being a pain in the ass, for many reasons lol.

Look, I can buy that some title defenses are higher quality than others. But Volk isn’t even remotely close to surpassing the number of title defenses Aldo has.
Like, Max Holloway is a great fighter, right? But much as Dennis Hallman beat Hughes twice, sometimes one fighter has another fighter’s number, you know? Volk won his title by beating Max, and two of his 5 defenses are against Max. Like we get it, Volk can beat Max. Another defense is against former WEC fighter Korean Zombie.

I’m not trying to shit on Volk, of whom im a big fan, I’m just saying you’re being biased in how you weight these things.

 

[Alpha_T83]

That’s certainly not how it went when Korean Zombie fought George Roop. KZ came to the UFC from WEC, where he had lost his last 2 fights—to Leonard Garcia and George Roop.
Now in fairness the Garcia fight is major robbery. But Roop straight up one shot KOed Zombie, out cold.
And Korean Zombie is one of Volk’s 5 defenses.

But still, KZ had a great UFC career. So did Cub Swanson, who beat guys like Charles Oliveira and Dustin Poirier. Hell, Poirier himself came from the WEC and had a great UFC career. Sure some fighters are better than others and whatnot—I’m just saying, you very much have a skewed perception that WEC guys just aren’t as good as today’s UFC guys, and it really isn’t true.

KZ was definitely Volk's weakest title defense. He was past his prime and close to retirement. Still not as weak as Hominick, Gamburyan, or Florian though.

Agree about Fedor.
But after PRIDE folded, a lot of other orgs picked up steam as they acquired that talent. Strikeforce became a great org, Affliction only held two events but had a great roster, EliteXC had good fighters…


That’s not why I don’t mention women when ranking male GOATs, I think there are too many comparisons to make that aren’t apples-to-apples. Look how much we’re going back and forth about FW GOAT between Aldo and Volk—trying to figure out where Cris Cyborg’s resume fits in that conversation just adds whole new layers of being a pain in the ass, for many reasons lol.

Look, I can buy that some title defenses are higher quality than others. But Volk isn’t even remotely close to surpassing the number of title defenses Aldo has.
Like, Max Holloway is a great fighter, right? But much as Dennis Hallman beat Hughes twice, sometimes one fighter has another fighter’s number, you know? Volk won his title by beating Max, and two of his 5 defenses are against Max. Like we get it, Volk can beat Max. Another defense is against former WEC fighter Korean Zombie.

I’m not trying to shit on Volk, of whom im a big fan, I’m just saying you’re being biased in how you weight these things.

Volk also beat Aldo in the head to head matchup and he's only 2 years younger. If Volk can win a title at 35, Aldo should have been able to as well. People argue this nonsense about Aldo's "fight miles" but Volk was an athlete too. I'm sure he had "miles" on him from rugby injuries.

The simple fact is that Aldo lost to McGregor, Holloway, and Volkanovski. So every time he went up against a "great" fighter (better than Frankie Edgar), he lost -- during his prime.

So IMO logic dictates that Aldo was a big fish in a small pond, which is the reason why he was able to rack up so many title defenses in the WEC & UFC.

 

[Westbrick]

Thanks for admitting you've lost the argument. When logic fails and people resort to insults, it's always an admission of defeat.

you're the only mf who thinks thats WEC ain't the same shit as UFC.

just a fanboy trying using any shit to argue and ignoring Volk weak resumé

 

[Westbrick]

What is there to argue when you dismiss wins against top 3 opponents in the weight class at the time because of what company it was in? You realize fighters across all promotions were ranked by outlets and they said the WEC had the best 145 lb fighters in the world. And you say those wins mean less because they weren't in the UFC. You are the one making fantastic arguments

bro is probably some post-Conor UFC fanboy, 0 sense

 

[Westbrick]

There weren't as many 145 pound fighters back then. The WEC was breaking ground with smaller weight classes, where the premier MMA orgs like the UFC and PRIDE were not doing so. Hence, the division was thin on talent. Volk's wins against Mendes and Aldo (non-title fights) are better quality than half of Aldo's title defenses.

Aldo never beat anyone as good as himself or Max Holloway. His best win was Frankie Edgar, and Volk beat Aldo x1 and Holloway x3. Volk easily wins the quality argument.

This comes down to quality vs quantity. And at the end of the day, Aldo had a losing record from ages 29-33 when he should have still been in his prime. People argue "fight miles" BS, but Volk had a rugby career and plenty of miles on his body before he started his pro MMA career.

bro comparing Rugby with MMA, you never trained a day in your life, huh?

Frankie Edgar is a LW and FW great, he was at his peak, coming off a robbery for the LW title.
The fact an out of prime Aldo is one of Volks best win proves his resumé is weak.
His defenses are mostly shit against mfs with some senseless title shot besides Max


"KZ was definitely Volk's weakest title defense. He was past his prime and close to retirement. Still not as weak as Hominick, Gamburyan, or Florian though."

You really think a semi retired TKZ was better than Hominick, Manny and FLORIAN?

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

Volk is the FW GOAT.

 

[Alpha_T83]

"KZ was definitely Volk's weakest title defense. He was past his prime and close to retirement. Still not as weak as Hominick, Gamburyan, or Florian though."

You really think a semi retired TKZ was better than Hominick, Manny and FLORIAN?

Yes. Absolutely. Even semi-retired KZ would smash them in their primes.

 

[Alpha_T83]

bro comparing Rugby with MMA, you never trained a day in your life, huh?

Frankie Edgar is a LW and FW great, he was at his peak, coming off a robbery for the LW title.
The fact an out of prime Aldo is one of Volks best win proves his resumé is weak.
His defenses are mostly shit against mfs with some senseless title shot besides Max


"KZ was definitely Volk's weakest title defense. He was past his prime and close to retirement. Still not as weak as Hominick, Gamburyan, or Florian though."

You really think a semi retired TKZ was better than Hominick, Manny and FLORIAN?

I have trained. I got a black belt in Karate, I did high school wrestling, and I did some BJJ back in the 2000s. Nothing past blue belt level, so I don't consider myself BJJ guy by any means.

But I can tell you that I saw fewer injuries in my training than I saw the guys on the high school football team get. And they weren't playing at the level that Volk was in rugby, which I assume has similar rates of injuries.

Pretty ignorant of you to assume that somehow MMA has the market cornered on sports injuries.

 

[Vagabound]

Volk is the FW GOAT.

Topuria doesn't become the GOAT by winning 1 championship fight and then immediately leaving the division. Sorry, but anyone who thinks Topuria is the FW GOAT is brain dead.

Bit of a questionable title if you're capable of being beaten by another FW

 

[Alpha_T83]

Bit of a questionable title if you're capable of being beaten by another FW

McGregor wasn't beaten in the UFC featherweight division. He won 2x title fights and then moved up to 155 pounds (and won that title too).

Is he on the GOAT list above Aldo & Volk? If you say no, then you're just a nuthugging cherry picking Topuria fan. And if you say yes, well then good luck dealing with everyone else.