Hypothetical: Volk doesn't fight Islam and stays at FW

[Westbrick]

Again, the WEC is not the UFC and Aldo's first UFC fight must count as a UFC championship win, not a defense.

So no, you are misrepresenting the numbers. The real numbers are: Aldo has 8 UFC title fight wins, and Volk has 7 UFC title fight wins. So one more title defense and Volk statistically equals Aldo. And I still think he edges him out for GOAT, due to higher level of competition.

Aldo didn't lose because he got old. He lost his first UFC championship fight at 29 to Conor McGregor. And then he proceeded to have a losing record IN HIS PRIME.

Aldo isn't as good as you think he was. He was just a big fish in a very small pond.

Bro, WEC = UFC, AND EVEN IF IT'S NOT, YOU CAN'T IGNORE WHAT HAPPBED IN WEC, MMA is a sport bigger than UFC, you're the only mf I've seen saying that kind of bullshit trying to diminish WEC

 

[Alpha_T83]

They didn’t hand it to him, he was the champ. They didn’t hand it to Cruz, they didn’t hand it to Ronda. The UFC imported divisions from other orgs and the champs of those divisions were the champs.

A minute ago, you said

—but it literally was!
The UFC FW division was the WEC’s FW division, and the UFC FW Champ was the WEC’s FW Champ. Of course those wins and defenses should count when ranking the FW GOAT. Goodness sake.

Did Dana sprinkle magic Zuffa pixie dust on the division and now magically the UFC has some incredible, never-before-seen division?? No, it was the same division that existed in the WEC, with the same champ.

So why aren't Aldo's title fight wins from the WEC counted on the UFC record books? Your argument is that the WEC's divisions were folded into the UFC, but the UFC themselves don't count WEC records in the UFC record books.

You're just going to completely ignore that argument in your response to me? You're being disingenuous with your arguments here: On one hand, the UFC is the authority when it comes to declaring Aldo the 145 pound champ and handing him the belt [or in your words "acknowledging that the UFC belt is the WEC belt"], but on the other hand the UFC are suddenly not the authority because they don't count Aldo's WEC title wins in their record books?

The simple fact is that WEC and Strikeforce were regional MMA organizations. The level of competition in the WEC 135 & 145 pound divisions, compared to the same UFC divisions after 5+ years is night and day. The divisions became much, much deeper after the UFC opened them up.

That's why the UFC don't count WEC and Strikeforce records in their UFC record books -- because despite giving the vacant division champions UFC belts, the UFC understands that the level of competition is completely different. That's also why Aldo had incredibly weak title defenses like Kenny Florian and Hominick early on in the UFC. I'm a Canadian and I'd love to support Hominick, but the dude went 0-4 in the UFC and then retired. He had no business fighting in a title fight, and neither did Kenny Florian.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Bro, WEC = UFC, AND EVEN IF IT'S NOT, YOU CAN'T IGNORE WHAT HAPPBED IN WEC, MMA is a sport bigger than UFC, you're the only mf I've seen saying that kind of bullshit trying to diminish WEC

I can and I will ignore the WEC.

It was a fine organization and produced some solid fighters. But the 135 & 145 pound divisions became far, far deeper after the UFC acquired them. That can't be argued against or ignored.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Respectfully your join date is 2016 and I assume missed the WEC Aldo era completely. You are using revisionist theory to minimize Aldo’s accomplishments in an era that you were not privy to seeing live time. WEC was the highest level worldwide for the lighter weight classes and as such was folded into the UFC nobody ever diminished Aldo’s WEC accomplishments at that time because we all knew he was the best and had been consistently fighting and beating the best 145ers on the planet. Aldo is the FW goat and his WEC accomplishments do matter. As for your claims about him being prime at 32 there is something called fight miles on your body. Aldo started professional fighting in his late teens and fought at an incredibly high level it is normal for a fighter (especially a smaller weight fighter) to fall out of prime much earlier due to this. You can even see it in the way he quite literally stopped throwing his patented leg kicks due to injuries accumulated through his long career.

Join date is completely irrelevant bud.

I've been watching MMA since Couture fought Belfort the first time. And I started following MMA regularly (watching almost every event) when Couture vs Ortiz happened. I remember watching that live talk show when Ortiz bought Randy a cane as a gift to hype up the fight, before Couture spanked him in round 5 (literally).

I'm not engaging in revisionist history -- I'm putting the WEC in context. Aldo was a big fish in a small pond. The simple fact is that Aldo wasn't out of his prime from 29-33 years old when he had a losing record. People use that excuse, but the truth is that the competition just got better. Aldo's tricks stopped working. Fighters learned how to defend against his leg kicks. The average striking of level of fighters got better. The level of athletes got better.

This fight miles on your body argument is complete BS. You don't think Volk had injuries and "miles" on his body from playing Rubgy before joining MMA?

 

[JKS]

Assuming he doesn't go at LW and lose twice to Islam.
Instead, he defends two more times his FW belt.
That's 7 title defenses instead of 5.
And then retires and doesn't get KOd by Topuria.

He would be 28-1 in MMA, 15-0 in UFC.

Would you consider him FW Goat?

Yes, at that point no question.

He did come back and win the FW title again and now he's on his second run defending. If he defends another 2 times I think he no question is FW goat.

 

[VinceArch]

This weird piece of alternate timeline fan fiction, where the hero for some reason retires before having to face the guy who kicked his ass, is part of a larger trend in MMA simping.

The schoolyard arguments used to be 'my favorite fighter could beat your favorite fighter'.

Now it's 'I am terrified of your favorite fighter beating my favorite fighter, so I hope they never fight'

Very true.

 

[Luthien]

I can and I will ignore the WEC.

 

[Lee Danger]

But I don't think we should be counting WEC fights in this discussion.

it was the same division.

LOL @ your claim about Volk's better defences...

Ortega?
Rodriguez?
The same Korean Zombie (litterally in his last match) that is also on the Aldo's supposedly lower resume?

+Fighting THREE times the same opponent doesn't help.

 

[Alpha_T83]

it was the same division.

LOL @ your claim about Volk's better defences...

Ortega?
Rodriguez?
The same Korean Zombie (litterally in his last match) that is also on the Aldo's supposedly lower resume?

+Fighting THREE times the same opponent doesn't help.

Ortega and Rodriguez would absolutely demolish Aldo's earlier competition like Hominick and Florian.

Are you really trying to argue this point?

Edit: And if we're tearing apart resumes -- Aldo's best wins were Frankie Edgar. And with all due respect to Edgar, he was not as good as either Max or Volk. So Aldo never beat anyone as good as Max or Volk, and Volk was 3-0 against Max. When it comes to quality of competition, it's not even close: Volk wins by a mile. Aldo has 8 UFC title fight wins, Volk has 7. One more and Volk equals him statistically, with a clear advantage in quality.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

Yes, yes he was.

He didn't get worse bro. You are blind to the truth: Aldo stayed the same and everyone else got better, because the division was weak early on.

holy shit you are fucking stupid

 

[Alpha_T83]

holy shit you are fucking stupid

Absolutely fantastic argument.

 

[MawrSeneca]

He's already the FW GOAT. Hard to dispute that now after he won the belt back.

He didn't regain the title from the man who knocked his head into orbit and went on to achieve something he couldn't do twice.

 

[Alpha_T83]

He didn't regain the title from the man who knocked his head into orbit and went on to achieve something he couldn't do twice.

Volk could have beaten Charles Oliveira for the 155 pound title. He didn't even get one chance to fight Oliveira for the 155 pound title because Makhachev was champ.

So no, Topuria didn't do something Volk couldn't. Mind you, that's not Topuria's fault. And if Islam beats JDM, and Topuria goes up and beats Islam at 170 pounds, then your argument will be vindicated.

 

[Contempt]

He didn't regain the title from the man who knocked his head into orbit and went on to achieve something he couldn't do twice.

Hard to rematch a guy that left the division. You can hardly hold that against him.

 

[BFoe]

So why aren't Aldo's title fight wins from the WEC counted on the UFC record books? Your argument is that the WEC's divisions were folded into the UFC, but the UFC themselves don't count WEC records in the UFC record books.

You're just going to completely ignore that argument in your response to me? You're being disingenuous with your arguments here: On one hand, the UFC is the authority when it comes to declaring Aldo the 145 pound champ and handing him the belt [or in your words "acknowledging that the UFC belt is the WEC belt"], but on the other hand the UFC are suddenly not the authority because they don't count Aldo's WEC title wins in their record books?

The simple fact is that WEC and Strikeforce were regional MMA organizations. The level of competition in the WEC 135 & 145 pound divisions, compared to the same UFC divisions after 5+ years is night and day. The divisions became much, much deeper after the UFC opened them up.

That's why the UFC don't count WEC and Strikeforce records in their UFC record books -- because despite giving the vacant division champions UFC belts, the UFC understands that the level of competition is completely different. That's also why Aldo had incredibly weak title defenses like Kenny Florian and Hominick early on in the UFC. I'm a Canadian and I'd love to support Hominick, but the dude went 0-4 in the UFC and then retired. He had no business fighting in a title fight, and neither did Kenny Florian.

They may not choose to acknowledge those title defenses in official UFC record books, but they’re certainly mentioned, acknowledged, and celebrated.

José Aldo’s Career UFC Career Highlights

Learn More About José Aldo’s Career Highlights As One Of The Most Dominant UFC Fighters To Step Into the Octagon

www.ufc.com

I don’t think their record keeping has anything to do with level of competition, they record things that have the literal letters U-F-C on them, and that’s fine—but it doesn’t change the context, history, and reality of those fights and fighters.

Look at the mental gymnastics going on here. You may not think Hominick is a high-level opponent, but you count Aldo’s defense against him, right? Well, Hominick was a WEC fighter, who earned a title shot against the same guy who was the WEC champ, holding the same championship, and he got the TS by beating another WEC fighter in George Roop. Manny Gamburyan did the exact same thing, but the defense against Manny doesn’t count but the defense against Hominick does? It’s silly.

I can and I will ignore the WEC.

It was a fine organization and produced some solid fighters. But the 135 & 145 pound divisions became far, far deeper after the UFC acquired them. That can't be argued against or ignored.

This is really sad. PRIDE, Affliciton, Strikeforce, EliteXC, WEC… all of these were good orgs (and there are others), and the fighters there and the fights that happened there matter.

I’m sure that from a promotional standpoint, Dana and the UFC are thrilled that they’ve cultivated this image of success wherein fans think anything that happened outside of their org is some bullshit joke, or is automatically subpar. But it wasn’t. Those were good fighters, fighting good fights, in good orgs, for meaningful titles, and it’s profoundly disrespectful to the history of our sport to act otherwise.

 

[Mammothman]

He would have gotten destroyed by Topuria before retiring.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Look at the mental gymnastics going on here. You may not think Hominick is a high-level opponent, but you count Aldo’s defense against him, right?

I'm willing to separate quantitative vs qualitative arguments. I recognized your argument that quantitatively Aldo had 8 UFC title fight wins, and Volk only has 7. Normally I'm against arguing "X era is stronger than Y era", but this an exception. The 145 division was paper thin when it came to the UFC. I'm sorry but Hominick went 0-4 in the UFC and then retired. This is not your strongest argument, trying to defend Hominick and Florian and title defenses. Qualitatively, Volk has a massive edge in quality of competition.

Well, Hominick was a WEC fighter, who earned a title shot against the same guy who was the WEC champ, holding the same championship, and he got the TS by beating another WEC fighter in George Roop. Manny Gamburyan did the exact same thing, but the defense against Manny doesn’t count but the defense against Hominick does? It’s silly.

Again, when you're trying to defend guys like Roop and Gamburyan at the title fight level, there's a problem in your argument. Neither guy has any business being discussed even in a top 10 capacity when compared to modern UFC top 10 fighters. KZ, Yair Rodruigez, and Brian Ortega would absolutely demolish Hominick, Roop, Gamburyan, and KFlo when comparing era vs era, because again, the 145 pound division was paper thin in the WEC & early UFC days.

This is really sad. PRIDE, Affliciton, Strikeforce, EliteXC, WEC… all of these were good orgs (and there are others), and the fighters there and the fights that happened there matter.

I’m sure that from a promotional standpoint, Dana and the UFC are thrilled that they’ve cultivated this image of success wherein fans think anything that happened outside of their org is some bullshit joke, or is automatically subpar. But it wasn’t. Those were good fighters, fighting good fights, in good orgs, for meaningful titles, and it’s profoundly disrespectful to the history of our sport to act otherwise.

PRIDE is maybe an outlier in that group. I would agree that PRIDE had enough money involved to be a truly world class organization. For example, I agree with arguments that Fedor is the GOAT @ heavyweight overall, because the best heavyweights were arguably in PRIDE*. It's a shame Fedor wasn't able to come over to the UFC immediately with Cro Cop and the others. I have a feeling he would have smashed not only Couture but Lesnar as well.

But with that said, the 135 & 145 pound divisions simply weren't deep enough in the WEC. And WMMA has the same problem in general, even in today's UFC. That's why WMMA fighters like Valentina and Nunes aren't mentioned in overall GOAT talks when DJ, GSP, Jon Jones, etc. are brought up: There is an intuitive, fundamental understanding that their divisions simply aren't as deep and competitive as the men's divisions. It's not sexist, it's just reality.

 

[xhaydenx]

Volk is the FW GOAT.

Topuria doesn't become the GOAT by winning 1 championship fight and then immediately leaving the division. Sorry, but anyone who thinks Topuria is the FW GOAT is brain dead.

Topuria won 2 championship fights and then left the division, not 1..

And Volk's run is great, but he also had title fights against the same guy 3 times, granted that guy is elite. But not all his defenses outside of that are super impressive. You've got Zombie who was never that good. Ortega whose only win the previous 3 years was Zombie. And Yair, who is sorta okay.

Volk is probably still the FW GOAT, but there's a pretty strong case to make for Topuria considering he KOd not only Volk but also Volk's clear best title defense in Max far easier than Volk himself did.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Topuria won 2 championship fights and then left the division, not 1..

And Volk's run is great, but he also had title fights against the same guy 3 times, granted that guy is elite. But not all his defenses outside of that are super impressive. You've got Zombie who was never that good. Ortega whose only win the previous 3 years was Zombie. And Yair, who is sorta okay.

Volk is probably still the FW GOAT, but there's a pretty strong case to make for Topuria considering he KOd not only Volk but also Volk's clear best title defense in Max far easier than Volk himself did.

Good point -- I keep forgetting that Topuria beat Max at 145. I think Topuria could well be the 145 pound GOAT if he stayed in the division and kept defending the belt.

The problem with the Topuria argument is that Conor McGregor also did the same thing. He beat Aldo, who at the time seemed unbeatable (at 29 years old in his prime), and then he went up and won the 155 pound title.

So by your logic the all time FW rankings would have to be: Topuria, McGregor, and then Volk/Aldo as #3/4. And if you eliminate McGregor then you're just baselessly cherry picking with your argument.

 

[NadaRekowski]

^^^^^^^ This guy gets it

Who's thinking Topuira is?!
It's still Aldo for being a fucking savage on his run and a contender on his way out.
Volk is close second.