How much would ground game be effect if there were NO rules

[Joepack]

Humans are stronger than you think. When in a life and death scenario, you will be much stronger than normaly.

No I won't. I will poop in my pants and hope the chimp doesn't rape me after he is done.
KARELIN vs a chimp I would pay to c but I still bet the chimp

 

[Bobbybackpack]

... which leaves you in the wrong position to secure a takedown, so the underhooks are rendered impotent.


... except that fighting for underhooks is only needed when eye gouging is illegal ... when eye gouging is allowed there is no greater takedown defense unless the wrestler wants to sacrifice their vision for the rest of his life.



I can also tell you've never wrestled, or you'd understand that you don't execute a takedown with your eyes buried in your opponent's chest.

I can also tell you've never tried to wrestle anyone who is allowed to eye gouge you - as well as drop hellbows into the back of your head, neck and upper spine - as you try.



GSP and Woodley are far too smart to give up their arms in a No Rules situation, there would be zero takedowns from them. Jones is a mad man, and in a shallow division, so he might be crazy enough to try just to show how badass he is.

Add all of this to all of the other striker advantages - eyepoke jabs, groin shots, soccer kicks, head stomps etc. - and it's clear that the best strikers would rule No Rules combat sport.

... which leaves you in the wrong position to secure a takedown, so the underhooks are rendered impotent.



... except that fighting for underhooks is only needed when eye gouging is illegal ... when eye gouging is allowed there is no greater takedown defense unless the wrestler wants to sacrifice their vision for the rest of his life.



I can also tell you've never wrestled, or you'd understand that you don't execute a takedown with your eyes buried in your opponent's chest.

I can also tell you've never tried to wrestle anyone who is allowed to eye gouge you - as well as drop hellbows into the back of your head, neck and upper spine - as you try.



GSP and Woodley are far too smart to give up their arms in a No Rules situation, there would be zero takedowns from them. Jones is a mad man, and in a shallow division, so he might be crazy enough to try just to show how badass he is.

Add all of this to all of the other striker advantages - eyepoke jabs, groin shots, soccer kicks, head stomps etc. - and it's clear that the best strikers would rule No Rules combat sport.

First of all I actually wrestle, unlike you. I understand that it's unnecessary to bury your eyes into your opponents chest when you have double underhooks. However, it's still possible to complete the takedown like that. It's only unnecessary when there's already rules.

Now, if you're answer to every takedown attempt is eye gouging or attacking the back area, instead of proper wrestling technique first. You're almost definitely getting taken down by someone with good timing on their takedowns.

Which brings me to my final point. Never mind the clinch takedowns and headbutts from double underhooks, as lethal as those techniques would be. What about those explosive double legs that you see from guys like Woodley, GSP, Brock Lesnar, Chad Mendes, Mighty Mouse? If someone perfectly times a fast double leg on you, you're fucked.

To support my point, here is a little video of GSP's takedowns. Don't worry about the whole video and there's no need to point out stalled takedowns (using the fence etc) and talk about how he would be vulnerable. I'm going to timestamp the takedowns that would still be effective under no rules combat. Fighters like GSP, DJ and Woodley would know when to shoot and if they do get you down, it's game over.



Tell me where you saw an opportunity where the opponent could eye gouge or strike his back on any of the following timestamps.

0:32
1:21
2:46
2:51
3:08
5:26
5:52
6:04

There were more but I wanted to make sure you have no excuses so I picked the very best only.

 

[Mike K.O]

No I won't. I will poop in my pants and hope the chimp doesn't rape me after he is done.
KARELIN vs a chimp I would pay to c but I still bet the chimp

Chimps are overrated
Dude like Romero or Woodley would rip a chimp into pieces
Even average strong male stands a pretty good chance

 

[Joepack]

Chimps are overrated
Dude like Romero or Woodley would rip a chimp into pieces
Even average strong male stands a pretty good chance

This video should shut everyone up. Chimps actually getting pissed. Look how fast they cover distance. Usain bolt can't do this. The 1 08 mark of the chimp in the top right corner is scary athletic. The amount of athletic things he did in that 4 seconds is scary.

 

[Rum]

I have on more than one occasion but I wrestled in HS so I just closed the distance and controlled them and if they kept trying that stuff I would choke them unconscious.

Sure you have noob.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

First of all I actually wrestle, unlike you. I understand that it's unnecessary to bury your eyes into your opponents chest when you have double underhooks. However, it's still possible to complete the takedown like that. It's only unnecessary when there's already rules.

Now, if you're answer to every takedown attempt is eye gouging or attacking the back area, instead of proper wrestling technique first. You're almost definitely getting taken down by someone with good timing on their takedowns.

Which brings me to my final point. Never mind the clinch takedowns and headbutts from double underhooks, as lethal as those techniques would be. What about those explosive double legs that you see from guys like Woodley, GSP, Brock Lesnar, Chad Mendes, Mighty Mouse? If someone perfectly times a fast double leg on you, you're fucked.

To support my point, here is a little video of GSP's takedowns. Don't worry about the whole video and there's no need to point out stalled takedowns (using the fence etc) and talk about how he would be vulnerable. I'm going to timestamp the takedowns that would still be effective under no rules combat. Fighters like GSP, DJ and Woodley would know when to shoot and if they do get you down, it's game over.



Tell me where you saw an opportunity where the opponent could eye gouge or strike his back on any of the following timestamps.

0:32
1:21
2:46
2:51
3:08
5:26
5:52
6:04

There were more but I wanted to make sure you have no excuses so I picked the very best only.

Look man, it is hopeless with guys like that.

They don't realize that eye pokes in MMA comes from wrestling although inadvertently.

They're those guys that think that stuff works but have never tested it. They are basically Kung fu guys circa 1990.

They are not even aware of what wrestling is or what it encompasses.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

If you really want to look at what the ground game would look like just watch PRIDE FC.

Knees to the head, stomps and soccer kicks.

 

[Rum]

First of all I actually wrestle, unlike you.

Easy tiger, I haven't just wrestled, I've trained with 3 UFC fighters and plenty of other local pros, cool your jets before you become "that guy".

I understand that it's unnecessary to bury your eyes into your opponents chest when you have double underhooks. However, it's still possible to complete the takedown like that.

Not on a professional fighter it's not.

Now, if you're answer to every takedown attempt is eye gouging or attacking the back area, instead of proper wrestling technique first. You're almost definitely getting taken down by someone with good timing on their takedowns.

The millisecond your head is at chest level or below, while you're still at arm's length diving in for the TD, Rafael Dos Anjos's palms are on your temples and his thumbs are digging out your eyesockets.

Congratulations, you are now blinded for the foreseeable future, and you ain't foreseeing much.

Never mind the clinch takedowns and headbutts from double underhooks ...

Never mind those techniques indeed, since both of which require you to abandon your safety zone of eyes-buried-in-chest.

Congratulations, you will be wearing double eyepatches for the rest of your lift.

What about those explosive double legs that you see from guys like Woodley, GSP, Brock Lesnar, Chad Mendes, Mighty Mouse? If someone perfectly times a fast double leg on you, you're fucked.

42%, 74%, 54%, 56%, 56%.

Aside from GSP the best guys are around 50:50 on TDs, and even GSP misses. And these are their numbers when soccer kicks, head stomps, eye pokes, eye gouges and elbows to the spine, neck and back of the head - all techniques which would be nightmares for wrestlers - are disallowed. Add in those techniques and they're even less effective.

To support my point, here is a little video of GSP's takedowns.

Oh, cute, let's pretend the best MMA wrestler in the history of the sport is a typical pro fighter ...

0:32 SOLID
1:21 Nobody throws gift headkicks in No Rules - IRRELEVANT
2:46 That jab before the takedown is now an eyepoke - FAIL
2:51 SOLID
3:08 SOLID
5:26 Nobody's throwing lowkicks to the thigh in No Rules - IRRELEVANT
5:52 Nobody's throwing loopy punches in No Rules, straight eyepoke jabs & crosses only - IRRELEVANT
6:04 Thigh kick again - IRRELEVANT

(Seriously though, cheers posting that vid, at least 30 of those 181,000+ views are mine from about half a decade ago but I haven't watched it in the last couple of years. The GOAT's wrestling was such a thing of beauty.)

 

[InternetHero]

The power is there for what? And how long would it take? Have any videos?

And I know someone, pretty well, who fought and tried to bite off a cop's finger too. It was a long bite and it didn't even come close to being severed....while the cop was raining punches to her face. She served some serious time for it too.




I clearly stated that you should also cover your eyes with your hands. Did you not see this?

Yeah, I wouldn't for one try to bite off a finger, one certainly might get through the sinew and bone and ligaments, and at the same time are more likely to crack the enamel on the tooth or have something else happen for a longer bite. (Like have have someone tear at your ear or bite your throat in retaliation.)

I had a guy try to fishhook my mouth in some hardcore grappling and bite the heck out of his finger, it worked for that move. He eventually got the submission though by poking my eyeballs. (I was new to grappling.)

COme to think of it, also kind of gay, but grappling always is!

 

[Bobbybackpack]

Easy tiger, I haven't just wrestled, I've trained with 3 UFC fighters and plenty of other local pros, cool your jets before you become "that guy".

Not on a professional fighter it's not.



The millisecond your head is at chest level or below, while you're still at arm's length diving in for the TD, Rafael Dos Anjos's palms are on your temples and his thumbs are digging out your eyesockets.

Congratulations, you are now blinded for the foreseeable future, and you ain't foreseeing much.



Never mind those techniques indeed, since both of which require you to abandon your safety zone of eyes-buried-in-chest.

Congratulations, you will be wearing double eyepatches for the rest of your lift.



42%, 74%, 54%, 56%, 56%.

Aside from GSP the best guys are around 50:50 on TDs, and even GSP misses. And these are their numbers when soccer kicks, head stomps, eye pokes, eye gouges and elbows to the spine, neck and back of the head - all techniques which would be nightmares for wrestlers - are disallowed. Add in those techniques and they're even less effective.



Oh, cute, let's pretend the best MMA wrestler in the history of the sport is a typical pro fighter ...

0:32 SOLID
1:21 Nobody throws gift headkicks in No Rules - IRRELEVANT
2:46 That jab before the takedown is now an eyepoke - FAIL
2:51 SOLID
3:08 SOLID
5:26 Nobody's throwing lowkicks to the thigh in No Rules - IRRELEVANT
5:52 Nobody's throwing loopy punches in No Rules, straight eyepoke jabs & crosses only - IRRELEVANT
6:04 Thigh kick again - IRRELEVANT

(Seriously though, cheers posting that vid, at least 30 of those 181,000+ views are mine from about half a decade ago but I haven't watched it in the last couple of years. The GOAT's wrestling was such a thing of beauty.)

The only reason those guys have a low percentage is because they shoot often with little fear since there are rules. Remove the rules and they'll only shoot PERFECTLY TIMED (not hail Mary) fast double legs, and when they get you down it's game over. Even you have to admit that if you do get taken down it's game over.

And even throwing looping punchesbin no rules isn't advisable, people will still do it. It's an instinct for men in any fight where it's allowed and try telling a brawler like Jeremy Stephens not to throw bombs just because there's no rules. People will still look for them. Especially when they get uncomfortable or angry. And when you throw looping punches, the GSP's and the Tyron Woodley's are going to double leg you. Game over then.

Btw, guys like Edson Barboza and Jose Aldo would be finishing fights in seconds due to groin kicks lol. Unless of course he misses and gets taken down by an explosive shot.

Also, I definitely agree with you that groin kicks and eye gouges from a distance would be a trend (Jones, Edson, GSP, Aldo, Ponzinibbio, Wonderboy and outside fighters in general) in no rules fighting. In general the fastest strikers with strong takedown defense would dominate and the fastest wrestlers with good striking.

Hopefully we can both agree on this. Even in a street fight with no rules, MMA fighters would mash Krav Maga and Wing Chun experts who brag about knowing the best techniques for street fights, even though they've never been punched in the face before. Are you really gonna tell me that some Krav Maga guy is gonna land a low blow faster than Edson Barboza. Good footwork will keep you out of the way of any of their techniques to start with. Any kick they throw will be obvious even if it's a low blow. Straight right for the win or slide out of the way and return with a fight ending combo or punch. Same with the eye gouges you gotta properly close the distance without getting KTFO.

 

[Hotei]

Most of the ground game would be useless.. there is no working from guard without rules.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Their are tons of instances eye pokes will work but it's not like they need to come up with some school to teach them my point has always been that to implement things like eye pokes successfully it really helps to have a base in something like wrestling because you are then familiar with leverages and controlling an opponent with them.

I've faced people that "trained eye pokes and small joint manipulations" and they had no wrestling base so they could not implement them successfully although they did try. The shitty thing about the eye poke small joint manipulation type of people is that they tend to be bully types and they believe in their nonsense so they escalate their bullying into fights if you do no accept their narrative. Which makes them the type of people that actively train to blind or maim others if they don't get their way.

Shooting single and doubles would be very harshly effected by eye pokes and knees to the head if they did them during a sprawl but that would mean the person knew how to sprawl in the first place.

The thing is it is hard to poke someone in the eye when one arm is controlled in an under hook or over hook and the other wrist is being held by a hand or blocked by an arm. My wrestling style has always been centered around controlling the clinch tie and collar style and it is pretty effective at removing the possibility for the other person to poke you in the eye because they are always heavily off balance. That said from that level of control in the clinch it would be easy to poke the opponent in the eye or knee them in the groin.

This is why wrestling is a really good base for this type of fighting. It is basically just infighting using dirty moves.

Eye pokes can be used at a distance the way Jon Jones does but he is using a common distancing technique from wrestling but when people aren't both bent over it often results in eye pokes.

Fighting NHB wouldn't remove wrestling in favor of strikers it would come down to infighting and outfighting as infighters would utilize wrestling more.

 

[98bird]

I had a guy try to fishhook my mouth in some hardcore grappling and bite the heck out of his finger, it worked for that move. He eventually got the submission though by poking my eyeballs. (I was new to grappling.)

Holy fuck, was this sparring or a tournament. If this were sparring, I woulda tapped real quick so we can reset on our knees again. Then I'm just going to fucking start throwing hands. I'll get thrown out, but oh well.

But what's interesting here is that we see the further escalation of violence. A lot of Traditional Martial Artists and especially the Self Defense bullshitters usually talk about how they're too deadly for sport, but all they're doing is guaranteeing that it can be a fight to the death or at least "the maim" if their cheapshot didn't succeed.

 

[98bird]

No, because none of them have fighting experience. Kung Fu arts used to be used in real fighting and were real martial arts. They've been lost to time.

That's not really true. What made Kung-Fu effective, were the weapons. But my money's on a Roman Centurian, killing the fack out of some Chinese broadsword guy due to Asians being smaller & weaker. Otherwise, Kung-Fu ain't that great. You don't lose all that through time. There are documents and shit of how they train, and for hand to hand, those Kung-Foooers sucked ass compared to modern fighting techniques. The best Kung-Fu fighters are Black Dudes in Brooklyn, NYC. Have you seen so-called Asian Kung-Fu Masters fight? They suck.

There are no magical bullshit, that's just the movies. You run everyday for cardio, lift some weights and train like crazy to knock a mofo out.

Imagine if boxing stopped competing for a hundred years and no video footage existed. All the knowledge gained from competition would be lost and it'd suck. All the boxing gyms teaching "boxing" after 100 years of no competition would be fake boxing gyms like cardio boxing gyms and LARP boxing. If you can get me a Kung Fu guy from 300 years ago that has experience fighting in competition using eye gouges, nut shots, throat grabs, etc -- hell yeah I'd pay him to teach me how to fight like that.

So once again, we're right back to where we started from....which is basically, you want to train anti-rape moves.

 

[45ACP]

Needs to the head of a grounded opponent would basically make wrestlers unstoppable

That would work both ways though. Any time a wrestler got sprawled on they'd be in severe danger of getting repeated knees to the top of the head.

Obviously Coleman used his superior wrestling to get to this position, but you can see how it would make a typical double leg far more dangerous if when a fighter successfully sprawled they could just follow up with this:

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

it would be the most effective. striking is striking no matter what. if i wanna gouge your eyes out it’d a whole lot easier from half guard than it would be standing

 

[Sp@cePeanut]

You want sub's, ko's and gnp? Keep the rules and have no time limit.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

That would work both ways though. Any time a wrestler got sprawled on they'd be in severe danger of getting repeated knees to the top of the head.

Obviously Coleman used his superior wrestling to get to this position, but you can see how it would make a typical double leg far more dangerous if when a fighter successfully sprawled they could just follow up with this:

I actually had in my mind a Don Frye fight where he was holding down his opponent and then walk his legs up the cage just to crash his knees on his opponent's head. He did this repeatedly. It was brutal.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Why do humans still believe they have any chance against a adult chimp. Chimps are about 3 times stronger than a human and fast as hell. Can you climb a tree and make it to the top in 4 seconds. Here is a chimp doing a basic climb. Didn't even break a sweat. Notice how he was sitting down and jumped to the other tree from a seated position. When u can do any of this, I will set the fight up and pay you if u win.For the record I rather fight brock Lesnar than a chimp. Millions of years of evolution and humans have gotten soft compared to our closest ancestors.

The gorilla was just playing.
A 250 lb trained fighter couldn’t do what the gorilla did?

 

[superpunch]

But my money's on a Roman Centurian, killing the fack out of some Chinese broadsword guy due to Asians being smaller & weaker.

Romans were tiny. Skeletal remains show Chinese around 200 BC averaging 167.9 cm and Romans from 500 BC - 500 AD averaging 168 cm. So, as Bruce Buffer would say on the tale of the tape, they're both virtually identical.

Otherwise, Kung-Fu ain't that great. You don't lose all that through time. There are documents and shit of how they train, and for hand to hand, those Kung-Foooers sucked ass compared to modern fighting techniques. The best Kung-Fu fighters are Black Dudes in Brooklyn, NYC. Have you seen so-called Asian Kung-Fu Masters fight? They suck.

There are no magical bullshit, that's just the movies. You run everyday for cardio, lift some weights and train like crazy to knock a mofo out.

Of course Kung Fu "masters" today suck. They've never fought before. Hundreds of years ago, they did compete and fight though. Look at these guys from the early 20th century - jacked and they have cauliflower ears; not at all like Kung Fu "masters" today:

Here's an illustration of an old style fight: