How come ever since Anderson Silva left

[AmonTobin]

I don’t really believe in Greatest of all time. The concept is a product of fantasy more than philosophy these days. Adesanya was certainly up there with most successful fighters of all time and he’s no wrestler. Philosophically speaking, to me the greatest fighters are exceptional at everything. Absolutely complete and dominant fighters like GSP, Volkanovski, Mighty Mouse.

 

[cburm]

The only kind of fighters who can put a decent win streaks together as a champion and get GOAT conversation recondition are wrestlers.

I look at guys like uaman and adesanya and realistically I don't think either of them should be considered GOAT because I still belive in the big 3, Jon Jones Anderson Silva GSP big 4 if you count Fedor. But tell me why is it Usman can do half as much as Adesanya and they will consider him the divisionary GOAT.

Adesnya resume wise has surpassed Anderson Silva and even before his fight against strickland no one gave him any consideration for divisionary goat. Yet you have wrestlers like Khabib winning the title getting like 3 defenses and everyone wants to claim he's the overall goat. It makes no sense.

I'm interested to see what people will be saying about Leon. If Leon manages to put together a seven fight win streak are people going to treat him like Usman and Khabib. Or is he going to be the next adesnya where it doesn't matter if he manages to surpass gsp as adesnya did Anderson. Anyone notice this strange bias fans have when it comes to not wanting to admit a striker is goat.

Usmen is a welterweight and he holds the longest win streak at ww..

And has a damn good consecutive title defence streak that is why I think he beat gsps

 

[Xoleth]

Volk is a phenomenal fighter. I am a huge fan

but "3-4 more title wins" at FW/LW
... over the age of 35

That is a momunmetal task. Fighters WW and below are 2-28 in title fights.
That is a 6% winning percentage.

If my calculations are correct, Statistically the odds of Volk wining 3 title fights (based on prior stats which yield 6% chance of winning)

1 in 216

Winning 4 more title fights age 35+

1 in 2196

Can we agree that is a pretty big if?
_____________________________


And then there is the matter of if doing that makes Volk a GOAT.

If Volk wins 3

Title fight wins

Jones 15 (16 w DC headkick KO)
GSP 13
MM 12
Silva 11
Volk 9 (10 with 4 more wins)
Aldo 8 UFC+ 3 WEC

He'd be close. If he beats Islam then sure, he belongs in the lower region of that extremely illustrious group.


Hey, if Volk pulls that off, that would be amazing, but that is going to take at least 2 years. If he beats Islam he will have to defend against 155ers which I would think lowers his likelihood of winning due to size disadvantage. If he doesn't then that is another title fight loss and he still needs to win that 3-4+ and he doesn't start chipping away at that probably for another 6 months. (Or 9 months, which is the average time between title fights)

.......

I think our fundamental difference of opinion is the idea that being 35+ and 3-4+ title wins away is "close"

And perhaps the recognition that in the context of achieving double digit title fights victories, the last ones are the toughest.

It is a big if, but he seems in great shape and has a strong work ethic. I do agree, though... huge if!

Jones had a huge robbery in Reyes and 2 controversial decisions and beating MWs.
GSP had the Johny decision.
Silva had his share of losing fights.

Again, there is more than title wins. Randy had 8 title wins, from what I see. I wouldn't compare him with Khabib, who is undefeated.

If he beats Islam (I don't think so) he will already be in the discussion, that would be quite amazing.
A 168cm fighter in a LW division full of guys that would have been MWs in another era.

 

[jeff7b9]

It is a big if, but he seems in great shape and has a strong work ethic. I do agree, though... huge if!

Jones had a huge robbery in Reyes and 2 controversial decisions and beating MWs.
GSP had the Johny decision.
Silva had his share of losing fights.
Again, there is more then title wins.
If he beats Islam (I don't think so) he will already be in the discussion, that would be quite amazing.
A 168cm fighter in a LW division full of guys that would have been MWs in another era.

Yell yeah. That would be amazing and I will be rooting for him.

I think we have a pretty solid amount of common ground. Thank you for the civil well thought out debate/discourse.

 

[Xoleth]

Yell yeah. That would be amazing and I will be rooting for him.

I think we have a pretty solid amount of common ground. Thank you for the civil well thought out debate/discourse.

We clearly have common ground.
Thank you too!
The big difference is that I don't consider the no of title wins that important, while you do, from what I understand.

 

[jeff7b9]

We clearly have common ground.
Thank you too!
The big difference is that I don't consider the no of title wins that important, while you do, from what I understand.

More the longevity thay they represent, but I suppose also the correlation with level of competition. If it is a UFC title fight that most likely means

A) a top 5 fighter on a win streak against legit ranked guys

or

B) you already cleaned out the top guys well enough that it justifies bringing a 6-10 ranked guy.


* occasional exceptions occur. Short notice injury replacements or more recently champs moving up to challenge, or in the case of Volk vs Islam 2, both.

----

In terms of comparing guys from different eras I think it is one of the better metrics.

* title fight wins
* top 5/10 wins
* wins over former/future champs

But for the purposes of a sherdog debate, the title wins are pretty easy to access quickly, where the ranked or champ wins require a decent amount of research, especially if comparing more than 2 or 3 fighters.

Another one I like is time between first and last championship wins, as that is an indicator of sustaining elite performance over significant time.

 

[Senzo Tanaka]

I think striking has mostly caught up. With wrestling, there's still levels. Some guys wrestle since they are kids and it's hard if not impossible to catch up to. Wrestling is hard and you'll hear from a lot of guys that weren't wrestlers as a kid, they hate training it because it's grueling.

I don't think you'll ever see guys catch up to the wrestling like they did the striking for that reason.

 

[cade187]

Lutter <45>
Vettori >lutter

Anderson finished Lutter. Adesanya won by decision against Vettori both times, on of which was a split decision. Keep trolling.

 

[Crash-override]

Anderson finished Lutter. Adesanya won by decision against Vettori both times, on of which was a split decision. Keep trolling.

Vettori would have finished lutter as well.

Anderson couldn't finish maia so what's your point?

 

[pankrat]

Vettori would have finished lutter as well.

Lutter is not even a top10 win for Silva at 185, while Marvin is easily top5 for Israel.
To draw this comparison shows the level of ignorance/bias/shertardism on here
I agree Marvin could finish Lutter, once Lutter gassed in later rounds

 

[Crash-override]

Lutter is not even a top10 win for Silva at 185, while Marvin is easily top5 for Israel.
To draw this comparison shows the level of ignorance/bias/shertardism on here
I agree Marvin could finish Lutter, once Lutter gassed in later rounds

Anderson didn't stop maia.. what makes anybody think he would stop Vettori? A guy that has never even been knocked down.

Irvin,forrest,leites,maia,leben,lutter,bonner,sonnen
,cote none of those were elite wins

Franklin,Henderson, belfort were elite

Marquardt, okami were good wins at the time they happened but I wouldn't call them elite

 

[Fioretti]

Fuckin kids.

We'll likely never see anyone like Anderson Silva again in our lifetimes. Izzy was supposed to be The Spider 2.0 - he failed.

Spidergoat bless.

 

[pankrat]

Anderson didn't stop maia.. what makes anybody think he would stop Vettori? A guy that has never even been knocked down.

Irvin,forrest,leites,maia,leben,lutter,bonner,sonnen
,cote none of those were elite wins

Franklin,Henderson, belfort were elite

Marquardt, okami were good wins at the time they happened but I wouldn't call them elite

Step up your game, noob.
Nitpicked comparisons and randomly throwing the tag elite here and there
Too much sherbro textbook. Step up or get a better hobby

 

[Crash-override]

Step up your game, noob.
Nitpicked comparisons and randomly throwing the tag elite here and there
Too much sherbro textbook. Step up or get a better hobby

Bro, I've been watch mma since summer 1999 and boxing since 1995 I'm no noob.

Is leban elite? Is lutter elite? Was Irvin elite? Use your head man. Im thinking you wasn't watching during that time but some of us were

 

[KungFuFoo]

because its all russian cans who are scared to bang.

 

[maximus__]

A head to head win against the shattered leg, ghost of A. Silva.

Every MMA fighter suffers injuries and has their downfall. Is it as good as Weidmans 2 wins over him, no chance but he still stood with Silva and gave him the best possible chance to fight in a way that allowed him to perform his best.

Silva is ahead, but Izzy's resume is not far off his, he just lacked the volume of title defenses to surpass him currently.

I think Izzy will actually come back and do pretty well. He needs some time to reinvent himself. He has gotten away from what made him so successful to prep for the Alex fights. He underestimated Strickland coming in and paid for it.

 

[maximus__]

Forest is nowhere in the same world as Jan dude you are tripping. they fight nothing alike

What is so magically different outside of the power advantage for Jan?

Both are reasonably big and solid plodding strikers who work behind basic combos and leg kicks. They both were reasonably skilled on the ground (for their times) but primarily just use basic combinations on the feet and their ground game as a back up.

People just forget what Forest was like back in the day. He was actually a good fighter for his time.

 

[pankrat]

Bro, I've been watch mma since summer 1999 and boxing since 1995 I'm no noob.

Is leban elite? Is lutter elite? Was Irvin elite? Use your head man. Im thinking you wasn't watching during that time but some of us were

Bro, you are not fooling anybody with your "elite" talking like a textbook shertard.
Get another hobby

 

[cade187]

Bro, I've been watch mma since summer 1999 and boxing since 1995 I'm no noob.

Is leban elite? Is lutter elite? Was Irvin elite? Use your head man. Im thinking you wasn't watching during that time but some of us were

One of Adesanya’s best wins by far (Whitaker) is the most overrated guy of all time at MW. 24-7 and lost to Court McGee is not an “elite” win.

Pereira is Izzy’s lone “elite” win, and he’s down 1-3 against him.

 

[Crash-override]

Bro, you are not fooling anybody with your "elite" talking like a textbook shertard.
Get another hobby

They were journey men that's it. You're just dumb I guess