Hey guys, what are your thoughts on "Trapping"?

[Tim Chan]

Yes i am referring to Pure WC Trapping. Therefore you do NOT rely on shoulder movement or power.

JKD however, because of their lack of understanding of Pure WC Trapping, they DO rely on shoulder movement and power. Much like a boxer throws his punches turning his shoulders and hips. But in WC this is a huge no-no.

And you have to understand that i'm not talking out my rear end. I've studied with the authorities of both JKD and WC for over 11 years. I have a deep respect for both but I bang my head against the wall when their stubbornness keeps them from really progressing the "trapping" game.

I'm one of the rare exceptions that have training in Both sides who also does Muay Thai, Boxing and Shooto along with BJJ, Judo and Wrestling. Understand that when i train with Gary Lam or Hawkins Cheung, I don't tell them that i study JKD or else they look down at me and give me lots of shit. So i soldier on and do what i feel is the right thing for me, what works for me, not anyone else. And hopefully along the way, i can change both their viewpoints.

good luck changing ppl's opinions. it may be impossible since they've programed there minds a certain way for awhile. but thankfully they usually say enough stupit things that you know 90% of theere stuff is Bull shit

i would suggest trying out a style that practice push hands like one of the internal styles, mantis, long fist, etc. you'll probably learn a bit more from that that you didnt know(not that i really know much about wc or jkd either)

I would agree that most people of any style are arogant dispite having no experience at all. and they rarely bother showing you much or free sparring, or getting free style matches.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

You know, if trapping worked, someone, somewhere would be making it work.

Thousands of fighters training and fighting for hundreds of years and nobody has figured out how to make the shit work in point, full contact or MMA? At best it is a very low probability technique.

I mean, if it takes hundreds of hours to even have a chance at making a marginal technique work, why not just spend that time working on shit that has a better probability of success? Jab, cross, hook, roundhouse, teep, footwork, head movement, etc?

I mean, the axe kick is a low probability technique but guys do land it and some guys (Andy Hug) land it all the time. But I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen anybody make WC or JKD style trapping work unless you believe that clinching includes some element of "trapping", which I do not.

If someone can show vid that indicates otherwise I will eat my words.

 

[Paedde]

You know, if trapping worked, someone, somewhere would be making it work.

Thousands of fighters training and fighting for hundreds of years and nobody has figured out how to make the shit work in point, full contact or MMA? At best it is a very low probability technique.

I mean, if it takes hundreds of hours to even have a chance at making a marginal technique work, why not just spend that time working on shit that has a better probability of success? Jab, cross, hook, roundhouse, teep, footwork, head movement, etc?

I mean, the axe kick is a low probability technique but guys do land it and some guys (Andy Hug) land it all the time. But I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen anybody make WC or JKD style trapping work unless you believe that clinching includes some element of "trapping", which I do not.

If someone can show vid that indicates otherwise I will eat my words.

+1 =)

That WC Stuff is bullshit anyway, if you want to prove the opposite, step in a ring or cage. I've seen one or two people who tried it and got picked apart in seconds...

 

[OZ!]

You know, if trapping worked, someone, somewhere would be making it work.

Thousands of fighters training and fighting for hundreds of years and nobody has figured out how to make the shit work in point, full contact or MMA? At best it is a very low probability technique.

I mean, if it takes hundreds of hours to even have a chance at making a marginal technique work, why not just spend that time working on shit that has a better probability of success? Jab, cross, hook, roundhouse, teep, footwork, head movement, etc?

I mean, the axe kick is a low probability technique but guys do land it and some guys (Andy Hug) land it all the time. But I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen anybody make WC or JKD style trapping work unless you believe that clinching includes some element of "trapping", which I do not.

If someone can show vid that indicates otherwise I will eat my words.

Millions of guys training Thai fighting, millions of boxers, millions of TKD artists and about 200 good guys combined. Why? Better martial artists. The less people in a style, the less chance there is of someone making it work. It also has to do with their personal goals. Whens the last time you ever heard a real MT guy say,"I'm going to do MMA." Never? That would be correct. Win Chun etc is a fantastic and very good style for those who know how to use or adapt it. Most MMA guys are tattooed jokes with very little skill in three or four different styles. So far we have ONE muay thai guy(and he isn't even a very good MT guy) in Anderson Silva, ONE kung fu guy(once again, he got to fight outclassed opponents) in Cung Le, a dozen good wrestlers and a dozen good grapplers. Where does that leave the rest? Oh yeah, the "I'm kind of a good grappler that learned Muay Thai(bad kick boxing with a sad clinch and sad knees) from some white guy and I learned wrestling from the same guy who taught me JJ". Oh good, and these are the guys we use to gauge how good a style that has never entered the sport is. I'm sure real martial artists like Anderson Silva, Bas Rutten, Karo Parysan etc really appreciate people like you. After all, until about 4 years ago Judo was a joke of MMA. They can't throw without the gi. Karo, Nakamura etc don't seem to have any trouble. Just chill out and wait a while. As MMA gets bigger we will see more styles enter(true styles, not BS styles like in the first UFCs). Hell, GSP doesn't train thai, he's a kyokushin kid with good wrestling that trains JJ. There are plenty of options still to be explored, just be patient(and hope that there is a school somewhere that is worth a damn to teach said exotic style! :icon_chee:icon_chee)

 

[Paedde]

Millions of guys training Thai fighting, millions of boxers, millions of TKD artists and about 200 good guys combined. Why? Better martial artists. The less people in a style, the less chance there is of someone making it work. It also has to do with their personal goals. Whens the last time you ever heard a real MT guy say,"I'm going to do MMA." Never? That would be correct. Win Chun etc is a fantastic and very good style for those who know how to use or adapt it. Most MMA guys are tattooed jokes with very little skill in three or four different styles. So far we have ONE muay thai guy(and he isn't even a very good MT guy) in Anderson Silva, ONE kung fu guy(once again, he got to fight outclassed opponents) in Cung Le, a dozen good wrestlers and a dozen good grapplers. Where does that leave the rest? Oh yeah, the "I'm kind of a good grappler that learned Muay Thai(bad kick boxing with a sad clinch and sad knees) from some white guy and I learned wrestling from the same guy who taught me JJ". Oh good, and these are the guys we use to gauge how good a style that has never entered the sport is. I'm sure real martial artists like Anderson Silva, Bas Rutten, Karo Parysan etc really appreciate people like you. After all, until about 4 years ago Judo was a joke of MMA. They can't throw without the gi. Karo, Nakamura etc don't seem to have any trouble. Just chill out and wait a while. As MMA gets bigger we will see more styles enter(true styles, not BS styles like in the first UFCs). Hell, GSP doesn't train thai, he's a kyokushin kid with good wrestling that trains JJ. There are plenty of options still to be explored, just be patient(and hope that there is a school somewhere that is worth a damn to teach said exotic style! :icon_chee:icon_chee)

I'm a kyokushin guy, it works because it's full contact and it's sorted out what works and not, since the beginning and still going on. They fought with Thai's first time, low kicks were included for example. And nowadays more and more grappling is included in training.

I know MT guys who tried MMA just to see what their art is about, I've seen a Kyokushin/Judo guy and others (even won). That stuff works because people try it out in the real world and see what happens, after they change what doesn't work.

WC is doing nothing except arm chess in training, do you expect anyone of them to fight? They don't even learn how to form a fist the correct way. Ever heard about the boxer injury? That's what you are going to get when you punch with the last 3 knuckles... I'm sure there will be other styles in MMA in the future, but believe me, WC will never have success except the people will wake up and change their style, but they never did for decades, so...

(I'm just talking about WC, there is good Kung Fu as we all know, but WC is just not part of that).

 

[NinjaKilla187]

Millions of guys training Thai fighting, millions of boxers, millions of TKD artists and about 200 good guys combined. Why? Better martial artists. ONE kung fu guy(once again, he got to fight outclassed opponents) in Cung Le, a dozen good wrestlers and a dozen good grapplers. Where does that leave the rest? Oh yeah, the "I'm kind of a good grappler that learned Muay Thai(bad kick boxing with a sad clinch and sad knees) from some white guy and I learned wrestling from the same guy who taught me JJ". . There are plenty of options still to be explored, just be patient(and hope that there is a school somewhere that is worth a damn to teach said exotic style! :icon_chee:icon_chee)

Yeah, we've been patiently waiting since the Shaolin resistance for a "real" WC or Kung Fu fighter, according to you all we need do is continue to wait for the second coming of Yim.

Your argument is absurd. 30 years ago there was esentially *NO* TKD, MT or Kickboxing training in the US. Traditional Karate, Kung Fu and WC was the shit since everyone was watching Bruce Lee and Billy Jack movies and believing the hype.

These styles have prospered becuase they are at least somewhat functional for combat or competition. TMA's have decreased in popularity because they haven't worked in combat or competition.

MT took off after the Thai's started issuing upen challenges to all commers and winning in the 70s. http://crane.50megs.com/index6d.htm TKD took off after the 88 Olympics and Kickboxing is essentially an evolution from TMA that discards alot of the traditional B.S. that doesn't work. And, BTW, Cung Le was a U.S. high school and collegiate wrestler, a TKD student and Shidokan competitor long before he started calling his kickboxing San Shou.

Golly, it's amazing that these "bad wrestlers", and "bad MT guys" are making millions beating up tatooed morons while brilliant TMA guys with "real styles" are languishing in Daddy's garage beating up WC dummies and Makiwara boards.

Stop making excuses for a lot of exotic, pseudo-mystical bullshit that doesn't work. I started out in TMA. I fought and competed and proved it to myself.

 

[corwin137]

When I was a kid...
Edited for brevity...

So my question is, have you seen it used? How effective is it in "live" sparring? Can it be applied to a self-defense situation?

Hrm. First, as always, all things in context. Simple answers: yes I've seen it used. It is effective, but again, in context. Yeah, I'd argue it can be used in a "self defense situation".

That said though... some random thoughts, meaning, they're not organized. It's not very often that I use or see it used. I think a lot of people who talk about it, don't really understand it. It's frequently taken out of context, usually only focused on one range, usually only focused on hand attack ideas. One thing that's interesting that you can glean from just some of the responses here, is that people talk about it from the perspective of "making it work"- it's value is rare enough, but to look at it from the perspective of initiation occurs even more rarely.

When an "obstruction" occurs, there's sometimes some use for it. On the coattails of that, as a bridge, or a means of getting to follow-ups, it can be useful. It obviously wouldn't make sense to trap when you can get a hit first (preferably without evacuating a line). In a non-sport context, it also might not make sense to trap when you can try to use something else from the appropriate range, like a foul tactic or escape or somesuch.

As some examples, boxers and "MMA" guys (among others) often slap people's hands down, do small disengagements, go from double outside attachments to some sort of "jam" or trap proper. MMA, JJ, BJJ, Judo, and Filipino guys trap feet, legs, hands, from both standing and on the ground all the time. Am a non-sport guy m'selfish, but know in efforts to escape from the bottom, attack from the mount, control from the ground and etc I'm always using trapping-based ideas to control limbs, avoid damage, sweep, escape, etc. Tons of BJJ ideas are based on trapping a foot or hand for sweeps/reversals.

I think people (WC folk, JKD folk, others...) though, train it too often, and because of how they talk about it overemphasize it's importance, and it's effectiveness.

 

[Inokisbathwater]

I use trapping skills all the time when i spar against Muay Thai or Boxing practitioners, and YES it does work and works well. They always come up to me after and ask me what i was doing because it is so effective.

The problem isn't the skill, the problem is that almost no one knows how to do it properly. Trapping skills work EXACTLY like Jujitsu skills. You have to think of trapping like stand up grappling.

You cannot try to "muscle" a move or you will get stuck. If you use your shoulders, you are WRONG, if your shoulders turn, you are WRONG. If you don't understand forward energy, you are WRONG, if you don't understand constant pressure, you are WRONG. High level sensitivity takes many many years to develop, just like a great grappler who can transition from move to move by feel alone rather than trying to force moves. Someone who is great at trapping, fights almost exactly like a high level grappler.

I have yet to meet anyone outside of pure Wing Chun who can do trapping properly. There are so many wannabe "trappers" who learn a few things but completely lack the structure or understanding of high level sensitivity. They then go and spar and get completely worked over. This is why the MMA community at large look down at Wing Chun and trapping skills.

Now, with all that said, here's the flip side to the coin. Trapping skills alone will NOT work in the cage or ring. You must have a deep understanding of pure striking arts such as Boxing, Muay Thai, Savate etc...

You must ALSO have a deep understanding of a pure grappling art such as Judo, Jujitsu, Catch etc...

Trapping is only good between Boxing and Clinching range. So getting there is half the battle. That's why it's important to know a pure striking art.

In other words, you should never rely on trapping but should incorporate it just like any other range or tool in your arsenal.

Hmm...i guess the best way to show or explain this is to actually put up a video of myself sparring a pure striker using it. I'll try and get one up soon.

Pretty much everything you said. Aside from Wing Chun, I boxed for four years, as well as took Kenpo TKD, and Shootfighting, and I was able to integrate trapping into several situations.

Like any technique it's a matter of knowing when and how to use it. Just as a guy setting up a sloppy leg-lock will get pounded by a decent grappler, so will a guy trying to use trapping in the wrong situation against a decent boxer or MT fighter.

Like Chinaboxer said, it's a good skill set to have for the place between clinching and boxing range.

 

[Ben Stigar]

I took some WC when I was in a JKD school (i.e., trained it once a week or so). They really stressed the WC techniques. Ummm...well some JKD techniques are very easy to integrate in MMA or ring sports (the stop kicks, the strong lead), but WC seemed to be "dangerous" only occasionally and by guys who sparred a lot or were very experienced in it. The issue seems to be that where WC is dangerous, so is wrestling and boxing. And trying to pak soa a guy who has you in a crazy wrestling clinch isn't always the best plan of action - not that it couldn't be, I suppose...?
I've seen some WC techniques used in boxing and they looked like boxing - parry parry counter punch (with the "trapping" opportunity lost, usually - I mean think about it, if you DO trap a boxer's hand, you have one hand used up and you had BETTER do something when the next punch comes in, and you will have a hard time bobbin' or weavin' in that position). Boxers rarely commit both hands unless clinched, so it's hard to trap both hands with a single hand of your own. Basically WC becomes a very long way to learn some fast, decent counterpunches (in MOST cases, I'm sure there are some crazy good WC dudes out there).
In a wrestling clinch...well you better be strong enough to avoid being totally overpowered. I just don't see WC intercepting limbs well while pummeling. I could be missing something - hell, what do I know, right?
Also most WC blocks won't work too well against a good RHK. But there are other ways to deal with kicks. In a way, WC starts getting good when kicking starts getting jammed up. However, you gotta GET to a good kickboxer. That's sort of the point in the whole "fighting" thing.
My rough estimation is that if a real/multi-discipline fight is like a prison cell, WC dudes are gonna end up wearing lipstick most of the time. The footwork doesn't translate as well to ring fighting and the strikes lack power (IMO - i know they have power drills, etc in WC. I just think boxing does it better). THe hand blocks are excellent - if you are willing stand up and pak-pak-pak with a boxer, who has spent as much time as you have throwing punches.
By the time someone really adapted WC to ring fighting, it would look a lot like ring fighting, I guess. And I don't like it when I hear "YEAH, but MY martial art is a STREET art - in a bar fight, that's when I'm dangerous!" Hmm. I've seen a lot of boxers mop up in "street" fights. Ditto for TKD dudes who don't even keep their guards up. Ditto for wild-swinging drunk guys etc.
My two cents...

 

[NinjaKilla187]

My rough estimation is that if a real/multi-discipline fight is like a prison cell, WC dudes are gonna end up wearing lipstick most of the time.

Funny!

 

[GrazZ]

interesting topic, im no expert on either JKD or WC by any stretch of the imagination but heres my take on things from what i've seen...please correct me if im way off base:

it seems to me that JKD and WC in general suffer from the same thing that a lot of TMA's suffer from, that is, they appear to work and look impressive when they are demonstrated...but only insofar as you agree to "play by their rules". As soon as you change up the requirements, i.e. how you are supposed to stand, the specific sequence in which you get in to the techniques, how you attack in general etc., you start to run into problems.

I train aikido as well as MT and aikido definitely has the same problem: it works great when everyone does what they are supposed to do in the dojo, but its almost impossible to get 90% of the techniques to work otherwise.

For example referencing the videos posted by Chinaboxer: in the first video, i have no idea how you would ever find yourself in a situation where you could use any of that unless you actually started out throwing and blocking the vertical backhand punches that are being used. How would that apply to a boxer throwing traditional boxing punches for example?

And whereas all of them are extremely fast, especially the guy in the last video, i think that if they were actually hitting someone trained in MT or boxing with those they would probably be more than happy to simply eat the first punch in the sequence, move in and just clock you due to the lack of power that those punches seem to be capable of holding. The goal seems to be speed and frequency of punches at the price of having any 1 strike do any real damage.

Does any of that seem to make sense to anyone else?

 

[NinjaKilla187]

interesting topic, im no expert on either JKD or WC by any stretch of the imagination but heres my take on things from what i've seen...please correct me if im way off base:

it seems to me that JKD and WC in general suffer from the same thing that a lot of TMA's suffer from, that is, they appear to work and look impressive when they are demonstrated...but only insofar as you agree to "play by their rules". As soon as you change up the requirements, i.e. how you are supposed to stand, the specific sequence in which you get in to the techniques, how you attack in general etc., you start to run into problems.

I train aikido as well as MT and aikido definitely has the same problem: it works great when everyone does what they are supposed to do in the dojo, but its almost impossible to get 90% of the techniques to work otherwise.

For example referencing the videos posted by Chinaboxer: in the first video, i have no idea how you would ever find yourself in a situation where you could use any of that unless you actually started out throwing and blocking the vertical backhand punches that are being used. How would that apply to a boxer throwing traditional boxing punches for example?

And whereas all of them are extremely fast, especially the guy in the last video, i think that if they were actually hitting someone trained in MT or boxing with those they would probably be more than happy to simply eat the first punch in the sequence, move in and just clock you due to the lack of power that those punches seem to be capable of holding. The goal seems to be speed and frequency of punches at the price of having any 1 strike do any real damage.

Does any of that seem to make sense to anyone else?

Ex-fucking-actly. This is what happens when fighters don't train full or at least very-hard contact. Any kind of point fighting turns into a contest of tag. I'll one hard uppercut for three of those snappy backfists or slapping roundhouse kicks against anybody in my weight class all day long.

 

[IMAF#1]

Trapping works great for self defence, when your fighting inexperienced people who have no idea how to throw a proper punch. Its harder to pull off against someone with extensive training in muay thai, boxing, ex. you need to really know what you're doing and have your timing and foot work down. It would work well in mma though in my opinion, since their is so much lack of technical stand up. If you want to learn trapping though, the best option would be to study FMA's.

 

[corwin137]

interesting topic, im no expert on either JKD or WC by any stretch of the imagination but heres my take on things from what i've seen...please correct me if im way off base:

it seems to me that JKD and WC in general suffer from the same thing that a lot of TMA's suffer from, that is, they appear to work and look impressive when they are demonstrated...but only insofar as you agree to "play by their rules". As soon as you change up the requirements... you start to run into problems.

...edited for brevity...

Does any of that seem to make sense to anyone else?

Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff being passed on, and perceived, as "JKD" that isn't. The ideas are largely based on non-cooperation when taught as intended- think Matt Thornton, Inosanto, Paulson, Dog Brothers etc as opposed to... a bunch of folk I'll leave out.

I understand what you're getting at, but am wondering if that's a problem that actually comes from "demoing" ideas. Meaning, by definition, to show combative "answers" in a demo, a scenario has to be set up, unless you just spar or have some sort of "contest". Just trying to make sure we don't mix apples and oranges- JKD ideas are intended specifically for non-cooperation and should be taught as such.

 

[corwin137]

Trapping works great for self defence, when your fighting inexperienced people who have no idea how to throw a proper punch...

Just a note for clarification- the primary purpose of trapping is for dealing with obstructions, not attacks. They might occasionally be used as pre-emptive efforts (and most of them wouldn't work as pre-emptive attacks, because some specific ideas would then be out of context), but that is rareified.

 

[The_Bear]

Trapping is a concept that can effectively be used within the medium to close range but you will have to be quick and explosive with your coutner strikes. Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, multple types of catch wrestling, Esckrima, Aiki-JuJitsu all use trapping. I mean hooking arms and legs can be considered a form of trapping.

Remember, the martial arts tkaes many, many years to really get down and perfect. Having these wanna be tough guys, tattooed bone heads, and jocks coming in and training for 2 years and going pro is a joke. The skills that are needed to become a good fighter are many and patience and time are needed to become good. I mean compare someone on the Ultimate fighter show who has trained for 4 years to martial artists who have been training since they were preteens or younger in Karate, Muay Thai, Freestyle Wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, San Shou, etc. etc. (George St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Shogun, Fedor, Cung Lee, Wandy, Nogs, Hughes, Lindland, Henderson, Liddell, Machida, Ishida, Karo, Arona).... and you see the levels that are in martial arts and in martial arts compeition.

 

[GrazZ]

Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff being passed on, and perceived, as "JKD" that isn't. The ideas are largely based on non-cooperation when taught as intended- think Matt Thornton, Inosanto, Paulson, Dog Brothers etc as opposed to... a bunch of folk I'll leave out.

I understand what you're getting at, but am wondering if that's a problem that actually comes from "demoing" ideas. Meaning, by definition, to show combative "answers" in a demo, a scenario has to be set up, unless you just spar or have some sort of "contest". Just trying to make sure we don't mix apples and oranges- JKD ideas are intended specifically for non-cooperation and should be taught as such.

see, again, im unaware as to how JKD classes are run, but im assuming that to practice JDK techs everyone is cooperating in order to learn, that is, even though you say JKD is intended for non-cooperation, right off the bat im sure this isnt the case. Again im only going by what i see but does JKD not also abide by a "set of rules"? An agreement by both parties that X attack is going to be thrown so Y counter can be applied?

The thing is i dont know what X and Y are really since i dont do JKD, however i'll relate back to aikido again: aikido is very X-Y dependent, if you dont do X attack in basically exactly the right way, doing Y technique becomes almost impossible and really impractical. However within this "agreement" the whole thing works quite nicely. By contrast MT is quite a bit less X-Y dependent, people by nature throw all sorts of weird kicks and punches and thats what sparring hashes out, its more open to these kinds of variables. You know what proper technique is and its up to you to make it work in a fight as opposed to depending on your opponent to provide that criteria for you automatically.

Now i wonder if JKD works in a similar way. Are you taught to throw punches at your partner a specific way like in aikido? it looks like it from the vids. It appears everything depends on being attacked at close range with the same vertical punches that you are throwing yourself; and that failure to attack this way (X) leads to a break down of what can be applied (Y).

Thats what i mean by it looking good when demonstrated, i dont necessarily mean a formal demo but more so if someone were to watch a class. Although im curious, is there sparring and competition in JKD as well?

 

[Chinaboxer]

The thing is i dont know what X and Y are really since i dont do JKD, however i'll relate back to aikido again: aikido is very X-Y dependent, if you dont do X attack in basically exactly the right way, doing Y technique becomes almost impossible and really impractical. However within this "agreement" the whole thing works quite nicely.

Now i wonder if JKD works in a similar way. Are you taught to throw punches at your partner a specific way like in aikido?

I'll try and answer these questions for you, because i think that this is the perception of most people. And it's a legit assumption. But it's not correct. The "tic" for "tac" method that you refer to is not how trapping works or should be taught.

The focus of Wing Chun/JKD trapping is the development of high level "sensitivity". I always refer to "trapping" as stand up BJJ, because the same concepts and principles should apply to both.

if you grapple, you'll understand what i mean, and i'm not talking about under/over hooks, that isn't Wing Chun/JKD trapping. For instance, does a grappler do "tic" for "tac"? sure they do but not at higher levels, why? because at that level they are constantly changing and adapting. In other words, over the years and years of rolling, they develop high level "sensitivity".

Now Wing Chun/JKD trapping develops the SAME type of high level "sensitivity" but its applied to primarily the stand up striking game. Again, i am not talking about the "clinch" or "underhoooks" or "overhooks". This is not Wing Chun/JKD trapping.

Okay..let me catch my breath...whew...now with all that said, HERE IS THE MAJOR PROBLEM with Wing Chun and JKD methods...

Wing Chun'ers are hard headed individuals who cling to tradition and don't like to go beyond their own methods. This makes them very narrow minded. "Their way or the highway" mentality. On the flip side, at the higher levels, these guys are very very scary when it come to "sensitivity" and trapping skills. Because, it's ALL they do...and that's the rub. They don't learn any other aspect of "combat" to the same extent; such as the kicking, boxing, grappling ranges.

JKD practitioners are complete opposite side of the spectrum. They are taught to do "whatever" works mentality by mixing one style with another and another; eventually mixing in some Wing Chun trapping skills with everything else. But the problem is that since their knowledge is so "wide", they are not taught the very important "structure" and details of Wing Chun trapping. They learn just enough to "get them in trouble" sort of speak. In other words, they learn the "technique" but not how to develop the principles and concepts along with developing high level "sensitivity".

Pretend that the only thing you know about grappling is how to do a handful of "techniques" like the armbar and triangle for example. Knowing how to do them, does that make you a high level grappler? Hell...no. But that's what it's like when it comes to trapping in JKD. They only know basic techniques and a few drills. Does that make them high level Wing Chun trappers? Hell....no. But MANY pawn themselves of as such. This is why JKD trapping is a JOKE. less than 1% can actually do it on live opponents!

You also have to understand that the Wing Chun community and the JKD community are like two brothers that don't get along. They RARELY ever work together and almost ALWAYS bad mouth each other. This is why the "trapping" game hasn't evolved. Look at the BJJ guys in the early UFC. At first BJJ guys were owning using pure tournament BJJ. But eventually, strikers began to catch on and the MMA game changed. But the nice thing about BJJ is that it too has evolved when it comes to MMA, in other words, it's progressing along with the sport. This just isn't so with "trapping".

I'm working hard to change that. But i swear to all you guys out there...it works. I'm living proof it works in the MMA ring. I'm doing everything i can to progressing the trapping game so much, that i've dedicated my life to it.

 

[corwin137]

Edited just to preserve the questions...

1. see, again, im unaware as to how JKD classes are run, but im assuming that to practice JDK techs everyone is cooperating in order to learn...

2. that is, even though you say JKD is intended for non-cooperation, right off the bat im sure this isnt the case...

3. Again im only going by what i see but does JKD not also abide by a "set of rules"? An agreement by both parties that X attack is going to be thrown so Y counter can be applied?

4. Are you taught to throw punches at your partner a specific way like in aikido? it looks like it from the vids. It appears everything depends on being attacked...

5. Thats what i mean by it looking good when demonstrated, i dont necessarily mean a formal demo but more so if someone were to watch a class. Although im curious, is there sparring and competition in JKD as well?

Will try to keep this short as possible, but will be difficult because of a lot of misconceptions about the "system". FYI, I come from a source not only really close to Dan, but also to Ted Wong (among others), so I've trained both "camps" of JKD...

1. Incidentally, I've not watched the vids you've been referencing. To answer, have to avoid some of the polytrickal problems in JKD. The ones I'm referring to are: is it a style? Is it a philosophy/concept? Can it be taught at all? JKD, when taught correctly, shuns techniques. Any system, when you're being taught an idea, will require it being shown in context. If we're gonna resort to a discussion where we start saying stuff like, "Well, what if he pulls out a shotgun?", the equivalent of "What if it was a hook instead of a straight?" or whatever, we're simply talking about an idea that likely no longer applies because of context.

2. You'll have to flesh out this idea. Maybe some of this will be answered in the next couple questions...

3. JKD doesn't have rules per se, but "principles". That's true for essentially every system on the planet. No, there's no "agreement", depending on the context. For instance, if I'm trying to show you how some JKD guys handle a jab (we all tend to do some things differently), throwing a hook in the spirit of non-cooperation is just stupid.

4. At this point, it's starting to feel like we have a different sense of the context and use of non-cooperation and resistance. When learning how to cover or intercept a hook (or some other idea), again, not gonna throw a jab. When someone's got all the basic covers and evasions and interceptions and etc ad nauseum, we certainly don't tell 'em when drilling what is coming. Additionally, I've actually been taught to break ideas, break my timing, control the distance, throw things sloppy or tighter etc for the purpose of drilling (feeding). We're also taught to use progressive resistance.

5. Of course we spar. All ranges, including the ground. With and without weapons. Some do so using choice reaction, tool access, multiple "opponents", etc. Some guys choose to go by way of contest or competition. There's plenty of noteables in that regard: Randy's been trained by Matt Thornton (a decidedly JKD guy), lots of guys have trained with Guro Crafty, Inosanto, Larry Hartsell. Eric Paulson has not only trained "sport" guys, but fought himself (and done well)- he's in some of Dan's trapping videos.

So much for brevity. Hope that helps a little.

 

[1836forever]

I love boxing. I don't know much about Wing Chun, but from observing the videos recommended by Chinaboxer, I definitely see a place for trapping in the sweet science. In MMA, takedowns and clinching are allowed and encouraged: at trapping range, most cage fighters would just eat a punch and clinch ferociously for takedowns. Thai boxing, from what little I've seen (mostly youtube of Diesel Noi) would have its fighters clinch behind the head and knee at that range. Unfortunately, the rules of boxing don't allow clinching for damage, takedowns, armbars, heatbutts, knee strikes, elbow smashes, etc.

If there's a whole set of devious hand control and counter-punching taught in Wing Chun, why haven't boxers used those tools in a fighting competition with rules amenable to that sort of thing? I believe a few boxers use defensive techniques like trapping in fights, but it takes a lot of skill and practice to use the trapping-like movements in boxing.

James Toney is one of those fighters. The proof is in the video:

YouTube - James "Lights Out" Toney vs Iran Barkley-IBF SM title Part 3

At about the fortieth second in this video, "Lights Out" uses both arms in a circular parry of Iran Barkley punch, quickly transitioning to a short-ranged counter punch. Toney isn't standing like a statue as Gary Lam did, but he is square-up on defense at times, using his hands just outside of clinching range like the Wing Chun master. Of course, "Lights Out" is also moving his head, ducking punches, and rolling his shoulder in addition to hand fighting. Even Emanuel Steward, a great boxing trainer himself and doing commentary for HBO in this clip, would have James Toney stick the jab and move away from Barkley's punches, but that's not how James Toney fights: he stands on the inside, and makes his opponents pay for every miss and especially every blocked punch. Ferocious inside punchers think they're in friendly range in every James Toney fight, but they are invariably wrong.

It's a style that worked for James Toney, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Johnson, and a few other fighters, but I think most boxers would be better served doing more running for cardiovascular health and training to work off the jab than adopting a difficult, inside, pseudo-trapping style.