Hey guys, what are your thoughts on "Trapping"?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Throatpoker, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. Throatpoker

    Throatpoker Black Belt

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    When I was a kid, I studied Chinese Kempo, and I was obsessed with it. Part of improving was sitting down and reading about the techniques and concepts. One of my favorite subjects, was Bruce Lee's take on the trapping range, and how he integrated unarmed Kali techniques with the techniques he learned in Wing Chun, and made them effective in full-contact sparring. Even though I stopped training that art (recently started out in BJJ), I've always retained the interest in those concepts. So my question is, have you seen it used? How effective is it in "live" sparring? Can it be applied to a self-defense situation?
     
  2. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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  3. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Well as long as I already have all of the Bruce Lee fans flaming my ass at high temperature I may as well chime in here also.

    Trapping rarely work against motivated, aggressive, combative opponents who actually circle, shuffle and otherwise move their feet when people try to jam them, or just retract their arm and swivel their hips. Also, most trapping moves leave you WAY open for nasty counters.

    If jamming worked against trained opponents it would be done in boxing, MT and kick boxing. As it is if you want to "jam" you generally have to grab on to someone to keep them from just moving away and pounding you with hooks and uppercuts, knees, elbows, etc. As you know, this grabbing business is called the "clinch" and it definitely works.

    In Escrima/Kali/Arnis it is a more reliable technique because you have 2-3 feet more of weapon length available to get "inside" of and your opponent then has to move a lot farther to break your jam. But you still almost never see it work in full contact stick fighting between trained guys.
     
  4. Kaliree

    Kaliree Guest

    I would agree with NinjaKilla187. Trapping can work, but it is very risky - even for experienced and skilled fighters. There are far better alternatives, like the clinch, or counter attacks. Timing is the most important element of striking (IMO). The idea of trapping revolves around timing, but if you are interested in developing reflexive responses to attacks, I would suggest that you work on developing good counter-punches (kicks, elbows, takedowns, submissions, etc.).
    For example, one of my instructors had a brutally accurate back-kick counter. He could not only connect with it, but he would time your movement so that his kick connected when you were moving forward in the midst of a shoot, punch, or kick. Your own momentum added to the collision. He also had accuracy in the sense of location. He would drive his heel into your solar plexis, eight or nine times out of ten. It was uncanny, and useful in all of his fights, thought he didn't always use it. Again, that is just one example, but I recommend you place timing and counter attacks high on your "to do" list for training.
     
  5. luc[ifer]

    luc[ifer] White Belt

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    i think trappin is soooo important for street fighting. i think it is kind of useless in a ring. but in the street, someone who knows how to trap with have the advantage IMO.

    for example...while going to clinch with someone in the street, your opponent is going to have their hands up, trapping helps you time getting their hands down so u can get neck contorl and work headbutts/elbows(what i live to do :) )

    but in the ring....not so much.
     
  6. c-ing_red

    c-ing_red White Belt

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    Trapping works much better against a stationary opponent - IE, when hitting someone from their guard. It is just a different way to set up a strike.
     
  7. Tim Chan

    Tim Chan Amateur Fighter

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    hard to use while standing because opponents move and they are fast. if you are really skilled you can get into position and push someone around with little strength and set up throws/strikes.

    on the ground they are a lot easier to use because opponents are stationary.

    even if you are really skilled at trapping, you have to get past step 1 which is into dominant positions without getting killed by punches/kicks.
     
  8. Chinaboxer

    Chinaboxer Blue Belt

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    I use trapping skills all the time when i spar against Muay Thai or Boxing practitioners, and YES it does work and works well. They always come up to me after and ask me what i was doing because it is so effective.

    The problem isn't the skill, the problem is that almost no one knows how to do it properly. Trapping skills work EXACTLY like Jujitsu skills. You have to think of trapping like stand up grappling.

    You cannot try to "muscle" a move or you will get stuck. If you use your shoulders, you are WRONG, if your shoulders turn, you are WRONG. If you don't understand forward energy, you are WRONG, if you don't understand constant pressure, you are WRONG. High level sensitivity takes many many years to develop, just like a great grappler who can transition from move to move by feel alone rather than trying to force moves. Someone who is great at trapping, fights almost exactly like a high level grappler.

    I have yet to meet anyone outside of pure Wing Chun who can do trapping properly. There are so many wannabe "trappers" who learn a few things but completely lack the structure or understanding of high level sensitivity. They then go and spar and get completely worked over. This is why the MMA community at large look down at Wing Chun and trapping skills.

    Now, with all that said, here's the flip side to the coin. Trapping skills alone will NOT work in the cage or ring. You must have a deep understanding of pure striking arts such as Boxing, Muay Thai, Savate etc...

    You must ALSO have a deep understanding of a pure grappling art such as Judo, Jujitsu, Catch etc...

    Trapping is only good between Boxing and Clinching range. So getting there is half the battle. That's why it's important to know a pure striking art.

    In other words, you should never rely on trapping but should incorporate it just like any other range or tool in your arsenal.

    Hmm...i guess the best way to show or explain this is to actually put up a video of myself sparring a pure striker using it. I'll try and get one up soon.
     
  9. Ryukyu Damashi

    Ryukyu Damashi Ryukyu Damashi

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    There is a lot of trapping when Thais clinch and throw elbows.
     
  10. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    great post- most people don't understand that most things work if u understand the range and timing involved to make it work; not just that, but most people lack the comprehensive skills to eff apply the tech, or adj position, angle to execute it in diff circumstances, against diff styles, frames, and speeds.

    i sparred a wing chun guy grappling/striking and he actually trapped and countered me fairly eff; an im no standup god, but i am familar w/the standup game an im not some unskilled idiot...so i have to respect the fact that in a certain range his trapping/striking had some effect.

    but as u said to really make use of it u have to underrstand another art, this was also told to me by a jkd instructor who i trained w/and i saw him use it in grappling and striking.

    great post

    sidenote erik paulson used it in an extreme fighting match once
     
  11. Nefron

    Nefron Purple Belt

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    @Chinaboxer

    Can you name one guy who is master at traping and can you please show us some examples of that tech working.
    Also,im looking forward to your video.
     
  12. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    I guess I consider trapping and clinch work to be two seperate things but I can see how you might argue otherwise. I suppose you can call that 1/4th of a second between when I close the distance and put my hands on his biceps, and when I tie up a "trap" but I thinking clinching is one fluid technique.

    The reason people disparage Wing Chun is because nobody has ever seen a high level Wing Chun fighter beating fighters from other styles using anything that actually looks like Wing Chun.

    If you pull it off you wil be first. Maybe you can be the Lyoto Machida of Wing Chun and show some semi-orthodox TMA can work...
     
  13. Paedde

    Paedde Yellow Belt

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    You can't when you never spar, don't forget shotokan people spar at least, WC is doing nothing except arm chess... Sure you can try to spar, but I don't think that u will choose to stay with WC then...

    There are better MA's with trapping, f.e. JKD
     
  14. Chinaboxer

    Chinaboxer Blue Belt

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    Gary Lam is one of my Wing Chun instructors, he is a very good example of Pure Trapping. if you watch closely, you can see how it's all about high level sensitivity and transitions exactly like jujitsu...

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=jGq0UzxKcjo&feature=related

    Yori Nakamura is one of my JKD instructors (also Eric Paulson's), he is a very good example of using trapping along with other ranges...

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=iJPnbf6wJ08


    Tommy Carruthers is also a JKD instructor out of the UK and shows some good trapping skills utilizing JKD principles...

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=dX6xJiLvdoU&feature=related
     
  15. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Are there any videos of anyone using trapping on a resisting, trained opponent?
     
  16. Chinaboxer

    Chinaboxer Blue Belt

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    http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...kune+do+fight&ei=-x0NSI6SMIHIlgTzmqyqBA&hl=en

    I'm J/K!! =D

    I know what you're eluding too and i completely agree with you! The major reason why there's nothing of "skill" on the internet sparring utilizing trapping (although there's a lot of junk), is because Pure Wing Chun'ers don't spar outside of their comfort zone which makes them very limited and JKD guys don't understand the "structure" of Pure Trapping skill which makes them very sloppy, to the point that it doesn't even resemble anything like trapping during sparring. Both sides like to slam the other but i think because of the stubbornness of both sides, they completely miss the boat.

    I'm working hard to change this notion and with God's grace, i can show people that high level "trapping" skills, along with solid striking and grappling, can and do work in the ring.

    Like i said, i'll work on getting some sparring against pure strikers on the web.
     
  17. Tim Chan

    Tim Chan Amateur Fighter

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    I would disagree about the shoulder moving part. maybe if you are just refering to wc trapping, but many styles have moves that involve shoulder moving or moving to generate power.

    but i guess I'll ask why you dont use shoulders for anything in wc. seems like you lose a lot of power and you can still move your shoulders while being sensitive
     
  18. Chinaboxer

    Chinaboxer Blue Belt

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    Yes i am referring to Pure WC Trapping. Therefore you do NOT rely on shoulder movement or power.

    JKD however, because of their lack of understanding of Pure WC Trapping, they DO rely on shoulder movement and power. Much like a boxer throws his punches turning his shoulders and hips. But in WC this is a huge no-no.

    And you have to understand that i'm not talking out my rear end. I've studied with the authorities of both JKD and WC for over 11 years. I have a deep respect for both but I bang my head against the wall when their stubbornness keeps them from really progressing the "trapping" game.

    I'm one of the rare exceptions that have training in Both sides who also does Muay Thai, Boxing and Shooto along with BJJ, Judo and Wrestling. Understand that when i train with Gary Lam or Hawkins Cheung, I don't tell them that i study JKD or else they look down at me and give me lots of shit. So i soldier on and do what i feel is the right thing for me, what works for me, not anyone else. And hopefully along the way, i can change both their viewpoints.
     
  19. StikyIcky

    StikyIcky Purple Belt

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    Some of this stuff is very cool, especially when combined with quality JKD concepts (stuff that you cant use in MMA for a reason)

    Problem with trapping is the time needed to train it versus a simpler more effective technique. Particularly when you need cross train it with the other styles. At the end of the day, there are better techniques out there unless you are just an afficiado of trapping.

    Boxing & MT/kickboxing already has simple trapping concepts that are limited to its particular style. Whatever actually works and makes sense has already been embedded in the style. Dirty boxing has quite a few trapping like techniques.

    And yes, Wing Chun guys won't sparr or fight other disciplines, which is their downfall. It's all nice & fancy, but trying that stuff versus a boxer will get them KOed unless they have a granite chin. The punches are faster, harder, come from different angles and are thrown differently. By the time the Wing Chun guy can even start adjusting, he is getting KOed. On the other hand, if you think a boxer has never had to deal with a trapping technique, well I will tell you from experience, they have. Their basic reaction is you getting punched in the face.
     
  20. MisterSambo

    MisterSambo Black Belt

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    If done correctly it can be used in a fight and as it is really unortodox it will surprise and can work. But against a good boxer.... I am looking forward to your sparring video
     

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