This reminds me of a time when I was filling in teaching a taekwondo class, and one of the techniques I was showing was a hook punch to the head. I later heard people in the class complained that I was showing that because, "What's the point? You can't do that in competition."
Heel hooks are NEVER EVER legal in gi BJJ
- Thread starter redaxe
- Start date
i don't think you understand what most of us here are trying to say....
i'm sure no one here minds drilling heel hooks just like you didn't mind showing the hook punch to the head..
to compare it to this situation it would be like your senior students were hook punching other students in live sparring so hard they were giving severe concussions.
it's something that's frowned in TKD sport but not something that if frowned on in training unless your malicious about it.
Holy crap, if you hit someone with a hook punch in TKD, you get dq?
I do understand what this thread is about and there are two points that were made by the TS, one that I feel is legitimate and one that I feel is not.
1. That cranking a heel hook during rolling is not okay. Anyone intentionally cranking any submission is someone dangerous and not deserving of respect as a student/training partner.
2. That heel hooks are not a legitimate submission to use while rolling because they are not allowed in some competitions. I've heard the same reason given for why heel hooks, toe holds, calf locks, bicep locks, and other moves are not allowed while rolling and are not taught in class. I don't view it as a valid reason for not allowing something.
If some moves are not allowed in a given school, this should be made known to all involved before rolling begins. Many schools have a list of rules posted on the wall. Better to have everyone read that than to just assume the guy in front of you knows what's cool even though no one's told him.
In some competitions: yes
In some competitions: no
This is part of my point.
I've talked with a lot of taekwondo people over the years (both in person and on the internet) about training and sparring with knee strikes, head punches, and kicks to the legs. My reasoning is that all of those techniques are purported to be part of the overall taekwondo system and none of them are too dangerous to use in sparring. However, I've received a tremendous amount of resistance, in part because Olympic style sparring competitions do not allow those moves. I don't buy that argument in that case, and I don't buy it in the case against heel hooks. If you take care of your training partners (which you always should), including moves that are not allowed in some competitions is not a bad things.
Last edited:
It is an interesting point and I think it could lead towards a self-defense vs sport argument.
Well anyway:
TS trains BJJ in his club to compete in IBJJF rules events.
Outsider walked in and heelhooked him because he trains MMA and is allowed to do it in MMA.
Who fails!
Both.
And I don't think a self-defense vs. sport argument is called for here, because sport BJJ is not a monolithic entity where all competitions in all places are governed by all the same rules all of the time.
Were this a discussion about strategies and mindsets, and things like that which do tend to run across the board of sport BJJ regardless of individual differences in rules, then yes, this could be seen as that. But since we're discussing the use of one move which is sometimes allowed and sometimes not in a sport BJJ context, I don't think that dialectic works in this case.
And, hey, if this keeps up, I might actually get to 500 posts after only 5 years and change. Yay for me.
Were this a discussion about strategies and mindsets, and things like that which do tend to run across the board of sport BJJ regardless of individual differences in rules, then yes, this could be seen as that. But since we're discussing the use of one move which is sometimes allowed and sometimes not in a sport BJJ context, I don't think that dialectic works in this case.
And, hey, if this keeps up, I might actually get to 500 posts after only 5 years and change. Yay for me.
I think the purple belt knew the OP's school doesn't train heel hooks in gi. Its hardly a secret that they aren't legal. The guy is a "leglock specialist" that trains in gi and no gi. If he really wants to work on them, he can ask the man he is rolling with if he is cool with that. To be a bitch at every other aspect, but great at dropping back for leglocks on blue belts (I think that's what OP is) means he has many other things he should be working on. Should OP tap when feeling the heel hook coming? Yes. Does this make it his fault that he got hurt? Hell no.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2008
- Messages
- 10,166
- Reaction score
- 0
How about that the instructor doesn't allow us to use them in training? Is being against "house rules" a legitimate enough reason why one should not use them on sparring partners?
That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Of course it is.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2008
- Messages
- 1,911
- Reaction score
- 0
Actually gi BJJ is pretty standardized. I have never seen a gi tournament which did not follow IBJFF scoring except for submission only tournaments. Also I have never seen or heard of a gi tournament which allowed heel hooks.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2003
- Messages
- 9,113
- Reaction score
- 379
Scoring? Usually the only variation comes from knee on belly points. But there are plenty of other differences.
Advantages? When? How much? Is passing to halfguard an advantage? What about with a crossface? Turtle? Is it a guard? Is it an advantage? When is something a neck crank? Is a triangle a neck crank if you pull the head? Grabbing the inner sleeve. Okay? How about inner pant cuffs?
These are all variations I've personally come across in legit BJJ tournaments all over the place. A few years ago blue belts doing kneebars and toeholds was A-okay, now it's not. I don't believe their is an absolute rule set out there. Just a rule set that people most know.
Oh, and Texas and Cali used to have BJJ tournaments where heel hooks were legal in gi at the black belt level but they are long gone now and I think the world is better for it.
ComteGuillotine
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 591
- Reaction score
- 0
So DON'T DO THEM, OK?
This dude puts a heel hook on me tonight in gi class, my knee immediately pops and I yell "OW FUCK." Afterward, he's asking me if I'm OK and then he starts telling me that he's a no-gi and MMA guy who specializes in leglocks. Of course.
So I tell him "but the thing is, heel hooks are never legal in gi, man" and he's all "I know, it sucks, I love leglocks, they're so underused and nobody expects them." and then he's like "where does it hurt? You know, I tore my MCL and PCL and basically don't have an ACL in this knee anymore, you just gotta fight through it, that's all I can tell you."
Really, bro? You managed to make it to purple belt and you still haven't put two and two together here? :icon_neut
Sorry for the rant guys, had to let that out.
My friend was recently heel-hooked in a gi match in a tournament through the Hayastan Grappling Challenge. He was heel-hooked while he was trying to heel-hook the other guy, he lost the heel hook race. There are tournaments where the heel hook is legal in gi but they are rare. Note my friend is a blue belt.
Sorry about your knee though, that's a real bum deal.
ComteGuillotine
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 591
- Reaction score
- 0
I've only been in two tournaments so far...
The rules in the first tournament were as follows.
Gi: Anything goes except heel hooks and neck cranks (can-openers are okay) for anybody at any level (except kids matches). I was at blue belt level and I tried to bicep slice somebody and was not called on it, I also saw a knee-bar and an ankle lock, and nobody was called on it.
No-gi: Anything goes for anybody at any level (except kids matches).
Second tournament-
Gi: Everything goes.
No-gi: Everything goes.
In our gym there are a lot of leg-locks, mostly from this kick-butt guy who is pretty much the leg-lock king and a few guys he has been teaching lots of leg-locks to (myself amongst them). Lately between 50-75% of my submissions are leg-locks of some sort (mostly straight ankle locks, followed by knee-bars, with some toe-holds). I have yet to get a heel hook but that is most likely due to the fact I don't quite understand the setups and I have not drilled/attempted one yet.
I did have a white belt land a heel-hook on me out of nowhere, I tapped immediately and fortunately he didn't torque on it or twist/wrench, he just landed it and waited for me to tap (which I did the second I saw what was going on- as I originally thought he was going for a toe hold or just trying to trap my foot/leg until I was able to sit up a bit and see what the deal was). The worst part was he told me nobody showed him the heel hook, he saw it online and thought it would be neat to try while sparring. Oh well, I shouldn't have been in a position where he could have done it, I should have expected anything, even though he's only a basic few stripe white belt, I shouldn't have under-estimated him.
I've never seen anybody injured from a leg-lock at our gym, except one girl who wound up hurt from what I believe was a knee-bar (might have been an ankle lock), I don't know the particulars but I haven't seen her since I heard she had something popped. Maybe it was an issue of her not tapping, I don't know.
There was another girl at our gym (she's now gone off to college) who developed this habit of refusing to tap when I locked knee-bars in on her, a few times I even asked her "are you going to tap?" as I was about to lightly bridge against her leg, and she said "no" so I just sighed, let her go, got a better position from the scramble that resulted, and choked her for the tap. Afterward she made it clear she won't tap to a knee-bar because she 'doesn't like them' or some such thing.
Everybody in our gym expects leg-locks, I was taught the straight ankle lock when I was a high level white belt, and the knee-bar when I was a no stripe blue belt, although it took me a few months beyond that to start being comfortable going for knee-bars, and a bit longer to be able to get them at a level of proficiency around 40-50% of the time (I have a lot to work on and a lot of room to improve, but I am going for them a lot). As far as I know I have never injured anybody (if I have they are an expert at concealing it and walking away fine).
Folks at our gym know what leg-locks are capable of, they know to expect them, and a number know how to hit them a LOT, and a number know how to hit them here and there.
But from what you described, what happened to you was a lot of BS on the part of that jackass that torqued/wrenched on you. He had no right wrenching on it, especially if you didn't know it was locked in.
The guy who taught me basically 85-95% of what I know about leg-locks, when he catches me in a heel-hook and I don't realize it because I'm not focused on it, he'll just hold it and sometimes chuckle, "don't play" if I try to move one way or another, to get my attention on the heel hook, at which time I tap immediately.
The guy you described doesn't belong at your gym, he probably doesn't belong in any gym.
There have been times where people could have ruined me before I realized what they had locked in on me, and times where I could have wrenched on people because they were resisting tapping or they were trying to do something to get out of it. I'm not out to wreck anybody though, and from what I can tell so far (based on not being wrecked) none of the other folks at the gym are out to wreck their training partners either.
Last edited:
here is the thing about "well no one in our gym has been seriously hurt by heel hooks". What alot of people forget to add is YET. Have you ever been injured by an armbar? Foot lock? it happens, it's just that when you get injured by a heel hook it's a higher stakes game.
ComteGuillotine
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 591
- Reaction score
- 0
Few people get seriously injured from submissions at our gym. Most injuries come from positions, guard passing, sweeps, etc. Somebody goes to pass and they end up landing a knee in a stomach or against a chest, bruising a rib. A few people have some joint injuries that are probably related to submissions, but there aren't a whole lot.
I've had some strains and pains that required icing, but nothing too serious. My worst injuries have been knee injuries from running that were aggravated while rolling.
I tap fast when caught, although I'm working on fighting chokes and holding out as the worst case scenario is a few second nap.
When it comes to tournaments though, they're breaking stuff off to get the tap... The guy who taught me most of what I know about leg-locks, he has popped some knees and ankles at tournaments.
At the last tournament he and I were at, he caught a heel hook on a guy, the guy wouldn't tap, he wrenched on it, the guy grimaced in pain, rolled to try to get out of it, he wrenched on him again, he then wound up switching to a toe-hold, he wrenched, then he went to a knee-bar, wrenched, then the timer ran out for round one and they were stood back up and told to get ready for round two. The other guy was hobbling on one foot and it was clear his one leg/foot was wrecked. The ref asked him "can you go on" and he said he could, so they slapped hands and went to round two.
Round two was a repeat of round one, my buddy heel hooked him, knee-barred him, and hit him with a toe-hold, wrenching on all of them, causing the guy to grimace. After round two I heard the guy say to his friend (who was nearby at the edge of the mat) that his leg was FUBAR.
They then went to round three which was a take down sudden death round and he managed to take my friend down, so he won and received a medal, but he was hobbling off the mat and his one leg was clearly so messed up it wasn't funny.
My buddy didn't show him any mercy and I don't believe he should have shown any. He should have wrenched as hard as possible and made the guy scream.
