Heel hooks are NEVER EVER legal in gi BJJ

Yeah that's a good point. In this case it was in gi class so I had no way of knowing I was rolling with a no-gi leglock guy unless I had asked him, which I didn't think was necessary because no one else in the room was going for leglocks. I wish someone had stepped in like you did!

Honestly the guy probably did know better. I don't see how a guy can get to purple belt without knowing that heel hooks in the guy are only allowed at a very few places. Sounds like the guy couldn't pass your guard, got frustrated, and went for a cheap tap.

How is your knee btw?
 
Sounds like the guy couldn't pass your guard, got frustrated, and went for a cheap tap.

ugh.

Yeah I saw that he was a purple and thought it was a safe assumption that he knew and would follow the rules but apparently not.

Dude, training isn't a tournament. Guy doesn't know what rules you expect him to play by; there was no rules meeting. My standard speech to every new training partner: "Hello, my name is [name]. Are you comfortable leg locking and getting leg locked? Do you have any injured body parts you want me to avoid?"

BJJ is a sport

ugh

and those are the rules of the sport.

double ugh

What if I went into a Judo class and started doing leglocks on people? How fast do you think I would get yelled at or even thrown out, especially if I hurt someone? Yes leg lock submissions technically exist in the martial art, but are completely 100% illegal in the sport, so you just don't do them, at least in live sparring.

I seriously don't want BJJ to become like Judo.
 
Dude, training isn't a tournament. Guy doesn't know what rules you expect him to play by; there was no rules meeting.

With heel hooks in the gi, i think thats one thing you should always check to see if its ok first when rolling with someone you've never met before, especially since its illegal in the gi. People are going to assume if its illegal, people won't do it. You wouldn't grab someones clothes and try to bow and arrow someone with their t shirt and afterwards say "my bad, I'm a gi guy and my specialty is lapel chokes. I've been choked out with my t shirt a bunch of times, you just got fight your way through it. Thats all I can tell you".

Is that a bad example?
 
Dude, training isn't a tournament. Guy doesn't know what rules you expect him to play by; there was no rules meeting. My standard speech to every new training partner: "Hello, my name is [name]. Are you comfortable leg locking and getting leg locked? Do you have any injured body parts you want me to avoid?"

Guy is a purple belt in the gi. I seriously doubt that he doesn't realize that heel hooks in the gi are only allowed at a very few schools. Also TS said the guy has trained at that school before, so again he probably knee the rules.

I know a lot of leg lock guys get pissy about any thread that complains about a leg lock or getting hurt by a leg lock, but this thread is more about an asshole than about leg locks.

And yes it was a cheap tap, because it was an illegal technique. Using an illegal technique to get a tap is cheap.
 
That guy was an asshole. He deserves to be banned from the gym.

First off, he is a liar. No one makes it to purple belt without knowing that heel hooks are generally illegal in the gi. I know that some weird tournaments do allow it sometimes, but the vast majority do not allow them. If you went to his MMA school and started pounding him in the groin repeatedly, then tried to explain saying you saw it happen to Joe Son in an early UFC, he'd probably kick you out too. The same thing applies here.

Second, he is using an illegal move during rolling. He should know better by virtue of his experience.

Third, he does not have enough control to roll safely. If he did, he would not have cranked that heel hook even though he caught it. A good leg lock guy will not cause injury to his partner in training. He will know what he has and just be safe with it. This guy was not safe.

One of those things by itself would be cause for an explanation and a warning. But all three together equals an instant ban. A guy like that is not safe and just bad for the school all around.
 
At our school even as a white belt and most certainly a blue belt you will start to see them in gi just because nogi is also a fairly large influence. I personally am not a fan and don't use them and will tell my opponent to avoid them unless I know them fairly well, but again that's not the standard always. They are kind of similar (mind you this is just my opinion) to wrist locks (not in terms of the damage they can cause). If a guy doesn't know what they are or hasn't experienced a wrist lock throwing one on is just funny as hell.

Now on the same note I have seen a brand new guy, probably to grappling period, come in and try of all things a heelhook (your youtube variety where you are just thinking is this guy serious) on me out of no where. I rolled out and proceeded to do it back to him he rolls out the wrong way and I think we all know what happens then.

The culture thing is weird though, because we are a Carlson Gracie Jr. school and during a free roll we actually do train a lot of the stuff that is considered illegal in competition. Note, we don't crank the shit out of stuff, but if you've been a constant member for 6 months or so and tried out a slicer or heel hook as long as they have been demonstrated to you beforehand I don't think many people would be too upset.
 
At our school even as a white belt and most certainly a blue belt you will start to see them in gi just because nogi is also a fairly large influence.

We have alot of guys at my school who love no gi as well. In fact i would say that we have students doing as many, if not more no gi tournaments and mma fights than we have students doing gi tournaments. We wear our gis everyday to class, but all the no gi guys know to bring their board shorts for open mat time if they want to roll no gi with no gi rules. Its pretty simple and a better way to train no gi properly (with the proper attire on).
 
Guy is a purple belt in the gi. I seriously doubt that he doesn't realize that heel hooks in the gi are only allowed at a very few schools. Also TS said the guy has trained at that school before, so again he probably knee the rules.

Highlighted for emphasis.

Maybe I've just trained at too many places, but I've used my speech the past 6 years after a guy put me in a neck crank and I was off the mat for a few months.

I know a lot of leg lock guys get pissy about any thread that complains about a leg lock or getting hurt by a leg lock, but this thread is more about an asshole than about leg locks.

Nice generalization there. Likewise, I could generalize that all BJJ guys get pissy when they get leg locked. There's really no need for these kind of sweeping assumptions, I think we can both agree?

And yes it was a cheap tap, because it was an illegal technique. Using an illegal technique to get a tap is cheap.

Again, dude, there's only illegal technique if there are rules. If you didn't lay down ground rules with the guy, how the eff do you expect him to know what is "illegal"?

With heel hooks in the gi, i think thats one thing you should always check to see if its ok first when rolling with someone you've never met before, especially since its illegal in the gi. People are going to assume if its illegal, people won't do it. You wouldn't grab someones clothes and try to bow and arrow someone with their t shirt and afterwards say "my bad, I'm a gi guy and my specialty is lapel chokes. I've been choked out with my t shirt a bunch of times, you just got fight your way through it. Thats all I can tell you".

Is that a bad example?

I don't necessarily think your example is fitting for a vast number of reasons.

Third, he does not have enough control to roll safely. If he did, he would not have cranked that heel hook even though he caught it. A good leg lock guy will not cause injury to his partner in training. He will know what he has and just be safe with it. This guy was not safe.

This right here is the real issue. The guy obviously has no control over himself to roll effectively and safely. Everyone's making a big shit that he used a heel hook, but I'm upset that the guy saw the need to crank it. The guy used a move you weren't expecting. Big deal. It's like if a guy threw on a neck crank; you'd just tap, start over, and say politely, "Hey man, I'm not so hip on those, can we not use them?"

The real issue is that the guy just exploded into the move and cranked you. It's the equivolent of throwing an armbar on faster than a guy can tap, or exploding into a shoulder lock. Obviously a lot of ego, and isn't the type of person you would want to roll with. If you can't safely control a submission, or privately say to yourself "I know I had it" and let go, you aren't the type of person I want to train with.

On a side note, I sincerely hope all of you "HEEL HOOKS ARE ILLEEEGALL!!1!" types never compete in ADCC/GQ/NAGA. You will be in for a very rude awakening.
 
On a side note, I sincerely hope all of you "HEEL HOOKS ARE ILLEEEGALL!!1!" types never compete in ADCC/GQ/NAGA. You will be in for a very rude awakening.

I can't speak for anyone else but like I stated earlier, I don't mind heel hooks at all. Just not in the gi. I change into my shorts and rash guard and roll no gi at least once or twice a week.
 
If he was truly a leglock specialist he would have done an achilles' lock:icon_twis

jokes aside, I hope you heal fast. The guy was a certifiable douche and it sounds like he was mad/frustrated with your guard and decided to do an inv-HH to "win".

That said, inv-HH, to the best of my understanding, tend to damage the meniscus and the meniscus will make popping noises and hurt. Have the doctor be aware of specific ROM (knee flexed, hip internally rotated then heel rotation (internal I think) for the attack). Unfortunately, medicine hasn't caught onto grappling yet so you can't go to a doctor and say "I was heelhooked" and they'll nod knowingly and then utilize the heelhook medical protocol. Brush up on your anatomical terms, doctors tend to treat people better if they speak the jargon.
 
If a guy starts to fish for any leglock other than a straight footlock or kneebar I pretty much tap straight away. My knees are crap, so the slightest torque and I'm hurting. My defense is to stay the hell out, and if that fails, I just have to concede. Sucks you don't have much of a chance to say, "no, thanks."
 
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bagel- you are arguing for the sake of it, and your argument about established rules doesnt apply because it is established gym etiquette that you do not use the heel hook in the gi. the only excuse for it would be ignorance, which cannot be claimed by a purple belt. stop playing devils advocate for someone that was clearly wrong.
 
On a side note, I sincerely hope all of you "HEEL HOOKS ARE ILLEEEGALL!!1!" types never compete in ADCC/GQ/NAGA. You will be in for a very rude awakening.

Heel hooks are also illegal in ADCC, GQ, and NAGA gi divisions. You don't have a point.
 
In the words of William Murderface... "Wow, what a dick!"
 
Fuck you you jinxed the hell out of me. I've just got ankle locked the shit out of my injured foot and the motherfucker didn't release as I tapped and kept pulling back and I had to make a scene for someone to release that shit. I never injured anyone that I know of, I never lacked in loyalty to my school and my training partners, and that kind of shit happens to me like that for some reason I don't even know. My ankle hurts like shit and it feels stiffer than a prison inmate's cock during conjugal visits day. What the fuck was that for? It was downright filthy, and I feel betrayed because I know I have done no fault to him. Now I'm off to the emergency room to be back as soon as I can be to training, so maybe I can put him in the same miserable situation he put me. So much for trusting someone who you consider to be your friend and training partner.
 
Fuck you you jinxed the hell out of me. I've just got ankle locked the shit out of my injured foot and the motherfucker didn't release as I tapped and kept pulling back and I had to make a scene for someone to release that shit. I never injured anyone that I know of, I never lacked in loyalty to my school and my training partners, and that kind of shit happens to me like that for some reason I don't even know. My ankle hurts like shit and it feels stiffer than a prison inmate's cock during conjugal visits day. What the fuck was that for? It was downright filthy, and I feel betrayed because I know I have done no fault to him. Now I'm off to the emergency room to be back as soon as I can be to training, so maybe I can put him in the same miserable situation he put me. So much for trusting someone who you consider to be your friend and training partner.

Yea see that is some bullshit especially if you know the guy. We just refer to it in our school as "going to the darkside"
 
Fuck you you jinxed the hell out of me. I've just got ankle locked the shit out of my injured foot and the motherfucker didn't release as I tapped and kept pulling back and I had to make a scene for someone to release that shit. I never injured anyone that I know of, I never lacked in loyalty to my school and my training partners, and that kind of shit happens to me like that for some reason I don't even know. My ankle hurts like shit and it feels stiffer than a prison inmate's cock during conjugal visits day. What the fuck was that for? It was downright filthy, and I feel betrayed because I know I have done no fault to him. Now I'm off to the emergency room to be back as soon as I can be to training, so maybe I can put him in the same miserable situation he put me. So much for trusting someone who you consider to be your friend and training partner.

Ouch, here's for a speedy recovery.

I make it a point not to roll with guys who can't feel you slapping them for the tap , it's not worth it...of course that's useless if it's the first time the guy did it.

Maybe it was an accident?
 
What exactly makes a heel hook worse in the gi? Is it that the gi pants create so much friction the leg has no give and happens too fast? I just getting the feeling from reading over this thread a heel hook when in no-gi is about as dangerous as an armbar which I'm sure it's not.
 
Heel hooks are also illegal in ADCC, GQ, and NAGA gi divisions. You don't have a point.

The point I was going with is that it isn't a tournament. Unless someone would tell me I'm training for a tourney so please follow those rules then it's not as bad. I still think to crank any kind of leg lock in against a training partner unless they are actually wanting to go full out for practice is dick, but just tossing one out isn't too horrible. Heck, I wasn't aware the GB strictly forbid them and if I were going against a brand new whitebelt wouldn't dream of it, but it's just a free roll session.
 
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