Heel hooks are NEVER EVER legal in gi BJJ

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by redaxe, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    So DON'T DO THEM, OK? :mad:

    This dude puts a heel hook on me tonight in gi class, my knee immediately pops and I yell "OW FUCK." Afterward, he's asking me if I'm OK and then he starts telling me that he's a no-gi and MMA guy who specializes in leglocks. Of course.

    So I tell him "but the thing is, heel hooks are never legal in gi, man" and he's all "I know, it sucks, I love leglocks, they're so underused and nobody expects them." and then he's like "where does it hurt? You know, I tore my MCL and PCL and basically don't have an ACL in this knee anymore, you just gotta fight through it, that's all I can tell you."

    Really, bro? You managed to make it to purple belt and you still haven't put two and two together here? :icon_neut

    Sorry for the rant guys, had to let that out.
     
  2. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Well, they're illegal in gi bjj competitions. Where I train, the more advanced guys occasionally use heel hooks in gi training, safely of course. We don't apply pressure when rolling, just get the position, and that goes for gi and no gi. They're not "illegal" in the martial art as a whole. One of the strengths of bjj is that all submissions are acceptable and trained. As Rodrigo Gracie used to tell my instructor: "If he taps, it's jiu jitsu."

    But that really sucks that this happened to you. Hope it's nothing serious.
     
  3. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Can this dude not get the concept of catch and release? Jesus. Did he actually crank it or did a funny angle cause the pop?
     
  4. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    Did you not have time to tap? An illegal leglock with gi pants is pretty easy to feel coming.

    I get where you are coming from, but not all BJJ is sports competition, and sometimes when rolling with black belts in gi's we implement heel hooks.

    To bring the case home, one of the first moves I learned from a Rickson black belt was a heel hook using the gi.

    Granted, I don't think I have ever even attempted heel hooks in practice with someone I've known for less than a year. It's essentially like sparring with sharpened knives, so a certain amount of trust has to be there.

    Coincidentally, Last night a white belt with a vale tudo background heel hooked me in gi training. First time I've been illegally atacked in practice in months, maybe years. I felt it coming immediately and just tapped to it early. The feel of the move is unmistakeable, which is why I don't know how it caused you injury without having time to tap. I figured the dude was really smooth, way too slow to release, or an escape was botched.
     
  5. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I'm not really sure, we were in kind of a loose 50/50 position and then I saw him turn toward my foot so I thought he was going to try a toehold or something but I couldn't see what he was doing because his body was in the way, and then I felt my knee pop, and a little pain inside my knee. It didn't take much, I had no time to tap. I sat out and iced it.

    I can still walk so it must not be that bad, but this kind of shit just pisses me off. I don't like feeling unsafe when I'm rolling with someone, like he's going to injure me before I can even tap. God dammit.
     
  6. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    Oh. Was it an inverted heel hook? Those are a lot harder to feel coming and the entries come out of nowhere.

    Only an asshole would seriously crank on those.
     
  7. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I'd never even seen the guy before. But like I said, he is a self-proclaimed "leglock specialist" so I assume he is good at them. I think he got frustrated because we had been rolling for like five minutes and he couldn't pass my guard, so as soon as we got in this kind of loose 50/50 position he just slapped on a heel hook real quick. I had no time to tap, I saw him turn toward my foot and then I felt my knee pop about one second later.
     
  8. dazed863

    dazed863 Blue Belt

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    yeah i think that falls into the "leave your ego at the door" category...

    i can see drilling heel hooks or even not limiting yourself in live training if your an advanced belt but why the hell would you go hard looking for one if your rolling with a blue belt? idiotic if you ask me.....

    anyway hope it doesn't keep your from training bro.
     
  9. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I train at Gracie Barra and I train to compete. We follow the IBJJF rules. Heel hooks, neck cranks, spinal locks, and finger locks are always illegal. Kneebars, calf slicers, bicep slicers and toe holds are only legal for brown and black belts. Gracie Barra is a BJJ school, BJJ is a sport, and those are the rules of the sport.

    What if I went into a Judo class and started doing leglocks on people? How fast do you think I would get yelled at or even thrown out, especially if I hurt someone? Yes leg lock submissions technically exist in the martial art, but are completely 100% illegal in the sport, so you just don't do them, at least in live sparring.

    By the way I found out this guy is not actually a GB student, he mainly trains at an MMA school on the other side of town and drops in at GB occasionally for gi classes.

    Thanks, though. I don't think the injury is that serious but that same knee has been bothering me lately. I had already made a doctor appointment to get it checked out on Monday anyway so I guess it's good timing?
     
  10. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    This topic is heading for deep water. Gracie Barra IS the IBJJF. By saying "whatever whatever" are the rules of the sport and than saying "suchandsuch" is a such and such gym, than that would imply that "Gracie Barra rules are BJJ rules" when that isn't always true.

    I'm not saying heel hooking strangers is right. I'm just pointing out that BJJ doesn't end with the IBJJF, no matter how much El Presidente wants you to believe it does.
     
  11. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Yeah, yeah, OK. I know there are some non-GB schools that disagree about what the rules of the sport are or should be, and there are some competitions with different rule sets than IBJJF.

    My point was just that to come into a gi class at a GB school and crank a heel hook on a blue belt you've never met before, is not only highly illegal by the rules in our house, it's just plain fucked up.

    I sure as hell wouldn't go into an MMA class and start soccer-kicking and head-stomping people, even though it was legal in Pride..
     
  12. one.armed.jack

    one.armed.jack Orange Belt

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    And I think this is the important point. It's rude to visit someone else's house and not establish the proper rules for behavior therein. I know a number of schools (including mine) that tolerate heelhooks during gi training. But it's important for teachers to help their students understand that what they do might not be Kosher everywhere, and they should clarify the rules before rolling at another school.

    Likewise, if you should find yourself in a similar situation with an unfamiliar training partner in the future, you should immediately pause the training to clarify the rules with him, just to be on the safe side. Too bad this lesson comes with such a needless cost for you right now... I hope you heal fast.
     
  13. Knock Out Ned

    Knock Out Ned el mero mero

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    That guy was a d-bag plain and simple. Especially if he knew not to do them and then said, "I know" after you told him they were illegal. And this guy is a purple belt?
     
  14. Knock Out Ned

    Knock Out Ned el mero mero

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    I've been doing this lately, and it works like a charm. You wouldn't think you'd have to do that with a purple belt though.
     
  15. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Fuck that shit.

    It is your house and it is your rules.

    It is his freaking ego and idiot atttitude which caused the injury.

    I wish you a quick recovery.

    Edit: I always watch new guys rolling because of that shit attitude.
     
  16. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Yeah I saw that he was a purple and thought it was a safe assumption that he knew and would follow the rules but apparently not. I've been training almost three years and I've never really been heelhooked in the gi. I think from now on I'm going to have a mini rules meeting beforehand every time I roll with a stranger. Better safe than sorry!
     
  17. brianX

    brianX Green Belt

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    It's a reasonable expectation to think that guys from the outside your gym will roll by your rules at your gym. And in terms of etiquette, it's their job to know.

    But it's not a safe expectation, and this is a case in point. It's always worth a few seconds to go over the house rules, and to modify them if you want.

    We had a GB blue belt come in a few weeks ago and wanted to roll gi. At our gym (MMA, No-gi) leglocks are fine, and I saw him starting to roll with one of our leglock guys who had a gi with him. I went over to raise the issue of leglocks, and it was clear that they were beginning their roll with totally different understandings. That's an injury waiting to happen.
     
  18. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Yeah that's a good point. In this case it was in gi class so I had no way of knowing I was rolling with a no-gi leglock guy unless I had asked him, which I didn't think was necessary because no one else in the room was going for leglocks. I wish someone had stepped in like you did!
     
  19. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

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    I've had to ask purple belts and brown belts if maybe we should avoid heel hooks in the gi since they are illegal. Almost every time they say sure, but I can tell they thought I was just being a puss.

    Fact of the matter is, its not legal so I don't even want to go through the motions. In no-gi, I don't mind at all.
     
  20. Aethyr

    Aethyr Blue Belt

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    Its true that IBJJF isn't BJJ itself, but what major GI BJJ tourney allows heelhooks for purple belts or lower?

    In this day, its unacceptable for a purple belt to be unaware of the controversial nature of heelhooks. Yeah, your school may allow it, but there's a good chance that your school is in the minority. Most pure BJJ schools I know of don't allow it or highly regulate it to minimize injury.

    And for a visiting guy to injure student with a controversial submission? Inexcusable.
     

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