Head Kicks

[lparnes]

itz fine i was tought you jerk it down or pull it down quick, it will add to the speed.

 

[EVIL5150]

Okay, so the consensus is that the arm swing is a necessary counterbalance to assist in core rotation. If this is true, why swing it down? (You're not rotating up).

And why straighten the elbow? Swinging the arm down and straight does little to assist in core rotation and has a number of negative effects; the swing telegraphs the kick, it leaves you open, and it increases your recovery time.

My argument is that you can get proper core rotation independent of the kicking arm swinging for counterbalance. I just pull the shoulder back while keeping my hands in a relatively guarded position. And If I am really loading up on my most powerful kick, I can use both my arms for counterbalance by swinging them in counter-rotation to my core but leaving them up and bent and ready to attack or defend. Swinging the elbow doesn't help power the kick, and swinging it down doesn't help either. It's a matter of kinesthetics and physics. Adding unnecessary motion to the attack is foolish.

up and out

high tower

see? no telegraph

arm bent, not dropped

When I started sparring I came from a Shotokan background and I'd basically been training myself on a heavybag in my garage so I had no one telling me what to do with my hands when I kicked. Needless to say I got popped in the face quite a bit.

My instructor coached me on how to keep my hands up and that's how we drill our kicks. Eventually I learned how to keep my guard up when kicking and what do you know, I got popped in the face a lot less. I still kick plenty hard, but I don't need to swing my hand down like I'm swatting an invisible dwarf to do it.

 

[Hughtoc]

I personally swing my arms and tilt my upper body a bit further back when kicking. It helps me with my kicking and brings me far enough away to not get swatted in the face (I'm 6"5', so thats a far reach). But everyone has different ways of doing stuff, you know?

 

[SAAMAG]

Okay, so the consensus is that the arm swing is a necessary counterbalance to assist in core rotation. If this is true, why swing it down? (You're not rotating up).

The are arm doesn't swing down it swings at parallel vector to the kick but in the opposite direction...and the kick travels 45 degrees upward.

And why straighten the elbow? Swinging the arm down and straight does little to assist in core rotation and has a number of negative effects; the swing telegraphs the kick, it leaves you open, and it increases your recovery time.

No one said you had to straighten the elbow. Though doing so provides more counter balance because you have more leverage.

My argument is that you can get proper core rotation independent of the kicking arm swinging for counterbalance. I just pull the shoulder back while keeping my hands in a relatively guarded position. And If I am really loading up on my most powerful kick, I can use both my arms for counterbalance by swinging them in counter-rotation to my core but leaving them up and bent and ready to attack or defend.

Nothing wrong with the way you do it. Our argument is that your way isn't the only way nor the "right" way. Nor is swinging the arm back a crutch or sloppy...it's just the way the thai kick is done.

Swinging the elbow doesn't help power the kick, and swinging it down doesn't help either. It's a matter of kinesthetics and physics. Adding unnecessary motion to the attack is foolish.

First learn the way the thai kick is done. Then try kicking some thai pads and swinging the arm in the same direction as the kick. Then try kicking and not swinging the arm at all, then try kicking with swinging the arm back. See which way is best. Some people DO kick harder with the arm swing as opposed to not doing it. Again, the arm swing is a natural bio-mechanical motion. Do you walk swinging the arms with the legs or keeping the arms straight? No.

up and out -- no it's just straight forward, this is also done in muay thai. However since we're nitpicking...why is his opposite hand DOWN and not guarding his chin?

high tower -- hands up and still getting hit?? BTW that looks like a knee more than a thai round kick.

see? no telegraph -- how do you figure with a static photo? PSST--his arm is swinging back

arm bent, not dropped -- arm bent, dropped, and counterbalancing

^^^ Fixed those for you.

When I started sparring I came from a Shotokan background and I'd basically been training myself on a heavybag in my garage so I had no one telling me what to do with my hands when I kicked. Needless to say I got popped in the face quite a bit.

Not surprising.

My instructor coached me on how to keep my hands up and that's how we drill our kicks. Eventually I learned how to keep my guard up when kicking and what do you know, I got popped in the face a lot less. I still kick plenty hard, but I don't need to swing my hand down like I'm swatting an invisible dwarf to do it.

Great! How do you explain people kicking the thai way and not getting kicked in the face ever?? Defense in executing a kick is more than just "keeping your hands up". It has everything to do with timing, placement, relative spatial orientation between you and your opponent, the power in your kick, speed of your kick, your recovery time, in addition to...where your hands are during and after your kick.

Easy solution for you though...you should go spar a muay thai fighter and see if you kick harder then him while keeping your hands up. You should also be able to see who gets hit in the face more when doing round kicks. Where are you located? I can probably find a colleague in your area that you can test your theory on kicks with.

 

[EVIL5150]

When I was taking kickboxing at West Valley College the instructor was pretty relaxed about where people's hands went when they kicked. Now he had a strong Muay Thai background, but when I asked him he agreed that keeping the hands high was better.

Just because the Thais throw the arm down doesn't mean it's the best way. I've been doing pad work for 16 years now and I've got all kinds of variations on my kicks, I'm telling you, swinging your arm down may be an intuitive natural movement, but it's not helping you kick any harder. There is no body mechanic in swinging the arm down that is helping in any way to generate power. It's just being lazy. You can kick just as hard with your hands up.

The problem is, it's very hard to unlearn a bad habit like dropping your arm when you kick.

 

[thirteen]

We should all just face the facts -
EVIL5150 knows more about kicking than thousands of pro MT figters and their coaches.
If only he would share his wisdom with the likes of JWP, Dekkers, Baukaw, Yod, the list goes on...oh well their loss.

 

[EasternWind]

Talk all the shit you like. None of you has come up with a good reason to drop you arm while kicking.

I've been over this, stepping off line doesn't make you invulnerable to being countered, even from outside range and off line it's a good idea to maintain your guard while kicking.

It's doubtful even the best fighters are throwing so much power behind their kicks that they need to drop their hands. In the event that you're throwing with enough power to warrant the need for your arm to counterbalance, it's smart to throw the kicking arm out, instead of down.

Just because you find my points distasteful doesn't make them any less valid.

Sir, what you don't realize is when you step off line past your opponent and initiatethe kick your torso has a tendency to lean away from the counter, hence why you bring up your opposing hand to block in case the opponent steps into the kick. also if you properly throw a muay thai round kick, you will twist your hips to get more power into the kick, which naturally rolls your shoulders towards the counter as well.
I also find your lack of respect towards some obviously experience practicioners on this forum a bit disturbing. It's one thing to disagree, but quite another to say that they and all the multiple world champs are wrong.

 

[Mateo151]

I've learned that:

1) Swinging both arms as in pretending to be an airplane = fail.
2) Swinging one arm behind your torso while the other arm swings over your face for protecion = more power because of added inertia/hip torque, more balance. You may need to spin all the way around.
3) Not swinging your arm and keeping both hands up = less power because of reduced inertia/hip torque, more protecion. You usually end up facing your opponent, no need to spin around.

You can see elite strikers like Buakaw, Masato, Bonjasky, Spong, etc, using 3) and 2), the proper techniques. And hell, it's so hard to do, that it's not strange to see some elite fighters sometimes using the aeroplane stance and getting KO'ed.

pretending to be an airplane... have you ever thrown a kick?

 

[Kmerck22]

i like to keep my hands up. . . swinging your hand back doesnt really add much power.

 

[quikkick]

The arm swing is for balance, not power. If you don't have good balance it will help you rotate faster thus producing more power. But, if you have good balance on your post leg you can rotate even faster without the counter-motion.

 

[EVIL5150]

Sir, what you don't realize is when you step off line past your opponent and initiatethe kick your torso has a tendency to lean away from the counter, hence why you bring up your opposing hand to block in case the opponent steps into the kick. also if you properly throw a muay thai round kick, you will twist your hips to get more power into the kick, which naturally rolls your shoulders towards the counter as well.
I also find your lack of respect towards some obviously experience practicioners on this forum a bit disturbing. It's one thing to disagree, but quite another to say that they and all the multiple world champs are wrong.

Speaking truth to tradition often comes off as disrespectful.

I think part of the problem is that most of the best strikers use Muay Thai, and Muay Thai traditionally swings the arm like most TMAs. So of course you're going to see top tier fighters swinging their arm, that's how they've been trained.

I am not ignorant of the mechanics of the Thai round, I'm just saying that there is a better way. You gentlemen seem to be operating off the premise that Muay Thai is a perfect art and that every practitioner is imbued with divine fighting wisdom.

in that 1st video Vankuen posted (htmlfail:redface
You can see Brian try to explain shoulder roll and get 3 straight lefts to the face at ~2:10. He then corrects by holding his arm high, which is the better technique. He'd be in an even better position if he didn't extend his arm, then he could hold a tighter guard and be prepared to fire his own counter.

You guys do know that step not only telegraphs the kick, but you are stepping right into the power hand. Not that Muay Thai has much in common with conventional boxing wisdom. I'm not saying the step out is wrong. I love to generate power with the momentum of the step, but it is easier to read and therefore easier to counter, or at the very least evade.

Once again let's imagine two fighters squared off throwing the same round kick. One fighters swings his arm down for balance while the other keeps his up. Who is in the better position?

You know what guys? After some thought and experimentation, if you're really arguing in favor of the momentum generated from arm swing, try swinging the opposite arm to help load your core turn. It's pretty extreme, but if you're seriously arguing that you're using all-out power for your kicks it's an option.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I guess that money I spent to train with Ramon Dekkers last week was all a waste. Can't believe he was demonstrating poor technique.

EVIL5150, Can you train me?

 

[EVIL5150]

I guess that money I spent to train with Ramon Dekkers last week was all a waste. Can't believe he was demonstrating poor technique.

EVIL5150, Can you train me?

I knew that's why you had such strong opinions on the subject

Hey I'm sure Ramon had some awesome stuff to share. The combo flowchart you posted was awesome. I love the way he doubles and triples up on the powerhand.

But hey, my rates are cheap if you want some tutoring.

 

[FadeIntoViolenc]

Why would he want an MMA guy coaching him for Muay Thai?

That's like asking a fucking biologist for help with a chemistry problem.

 

[Upperhook]

Immediately after the kick was landed every one of those fighters brought their hands up on the exit... THAT's proper technique.

 

[SAAMAG]

...I think part of the problem is that most of the best strikers use Muay Thai, and Muay Thai traditionally swings the arm like most TMAs. So of course you're going to see top tier fighters swinging their arm, that's how they've been trained.

I am not ignorant of the mechanics of the Thai round, I'm just saying that there is a better way. You gentlemen seem to be operating off the premise that Muay Thai is a perfect art and that every practitioner is imbued with divine fighting wisdom.

Not at all...we're operating on the premise that there's more than one way...YOU seem to be the person who thinks his way is the perfect way, even after having explained all that's involved you still don't recognize or address it. It's a matter of quid pro quo with relation to offense/defense and basic body mechanics.

in that 1st video Vankuen posted (htmlfail:redface
You can see Brian try to explain shoulder roll and get 3 straight lefts to the face at ~2:10. He then corrects by holding his arm high, which is the better technique. He'd be in an even better position if he didn't extend his arm, then he could hold a tighter guard and be prepared to fire his own counter.

He doesn't try to explain, he does explain; and are you watching the same video?? The punches that you're talking about are being deflected by the shoulder--which is what's demonstrated. The second set you talk about are illustrating how the arm can be used against a different punch. The third set show the reason for the opposite hand being held tight.

You guys do know that step not only telegraphs the kick, but you are stepping right into the power hand. Not that Muay Thai has much in common with conventional boxing wisdom. I'm not saying the step out is wrong. I love to generate power with the momentum of the step, but it is easier to read and therefore easier to counter, or at the very least evade.

It's obvious that you don't fight full contact. You're spouting theory after theory based on rules of thumb, but the funny thing is that if you fought you'd not be having this argument in the first place as you'd realize the kick is sound as-is FROM EXPERIENCE. Not only that but you'd also realize there's a risk/reward factor for everything that you do. Striking is about TIMING and SPEED. If you time it right, you can pull anything off. Stepping to the power side is fine, if you're timing the kick to land when the opponent isn't able to counter from the power side. It's not like people stand in front of each other trading kicks like JCVD in his movies.

Tell you what...when you can block and evade every thai kick or stepping kick that comes your way...then you have an argument. Till then...your point is moot.

Once again let's imagine two fighters squared off throwing the same round kick. One fighters swings his arm down for balance while the other keeps his up. Who is in the better position?

Depends on a lot of things. And since they're doing the same kick their OPPOSITE hand will be up in either case and not the hand that you're having a hissy-fit about. So perhaps you need to think of another hypothetical / theoretical situation?

You know what guys? After some thought and experimentation, if you're really arguing in favor of the momentum generated from arm swing, try swinging the opposite arm to help load your core turn. It's pretty extreme, but if you're seriously arguing that you're using all-out power for your kicks it's an option.

The arm swing isn't some extreme ax chop that you're describing. Even your most of your failed photos show arm swings...though you are blind to it. You also can't "swing" your opposite hand since your hips and core are going in the opposite direction and your body stops your arm. It's also fundamentally flawed by your standard because it is no longer protecting the jawline.

You need to stop arguing with people that understand the kick as you don't even train to use it. Your karate kick is a karate kick. Ours is a thai kick. Yours is faster, ours is stronger and faster. Get over it. :icon_twis

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The arm swing is for balance, not power. If you don't have good balance it will help you rotate faster thus producing more power. But, if you have good balance on your post leg you can rotate even faster without the counter-motion.

Yes that!!!^^^

some people are more coordinated and have better balance than others so the arm drop isnt needed or at least dropping it to a large degree


Just like some people have looser hips and a stronger core so they can generate more torgue or power with out the need of the arm drop or a step out.


people ARE assuming everyone has the same physcial abilties as they do.

 

[Mark420]

Hey look! A bunch of top fighters are sloppy kickers! It's a revelation! This is not news kids. STFU and get back to having crappy form.

Just because a bunch of top fighters get away with sloppy technique doesn't make it a good idea. Now an experienced fighter knows when he can get away with swinging his arm, but it's still risky. Do I do it sometimes? Yeah, when I'm tired and sloppy and I don't respect my opponent.

Guys like Chuck Liddell and Machida have made careers out of sloppy defense. Of course it can be done. I'd rather not take the chance.

Now if you train with sloppy arm swinging, that's all you'll be able to do and you'll be easy to counter. If you train your defense correctly, it'll be there when you need it, and if you feel like swinging a big kick and you're not worried about being countered, you can let your arm fly however it's comfortable.

You want to make a case for creating a big fat hole to get countered let's hear it. Post all the pics you like, you're still making an argument for dropping your hands in front of someone that wants to hit you.

get off your MT coaches nut sack bud because HE (and you) is the one who doesn't know wtf hes doing. you got stomped in this thread and i only read a few pages

 

[EVIL5150]

Not at all...we're operating on the premise that there's more than one way...YOU seem to be the person who thinks his way is the perfect way, even after having explained all that's involved you still don't recognize or address it. It's a matter of quid pro quo with relation to offense/defense and basic body mechanics.



He doesn't try to explain, he does explain; and are you watching the same video?? The punches that you're talking about are being deflected by the shoulder--which is what's demonstrated. The second set you talk about are illustrating how the arm can be used against a different punch. The third set show the reason for the opposite hand being held tight.



It's obvious that you don't fight full contact. You're spouting theory after theory based on rules of thumb, but the funny thing is that if you fought you'd not be having this argument in the first place as you'd realize the kick is sound as-is FROM EXPERIENCE. Not only that but you'd also realize there's a risk/reward factor for everything that you do. Striking is about TIMING and SPEED. If you time it right, you can pull anything off. Stepping to the power side is fine, if you're timing the kick to land when the opponent isn't able to counter from the power side. It's not like people stand in front of each other trading kicks like JCVD in his movies.

Tell you what...when you can block and evade every thai kick or stepping kick that comes your way...then you have an argument. Till then...your point is moot.



Depends on a lot of things. And since they're doing the same kick their OPPOSITE hand will be up in either case and not the hand that you're having a hissy-fit about. So perhaps you need to think of another hypothetical / theoretical situation?



The arm swing isn't some extreme ax chop that you're describing. Even your most of your failed photos show arm swings...though you are blind to it. You also can't "swing" your opposite hand since your hips and core are going in the opposite direction and your body stops your arm. It's also fundamentally flawed by your standard because it is no longer protecting the jawline.

You need to stop arguing with people that understand the kick as you don't even train to use it. Your karate kick is a karate kick. Ours is a thai kick. Yours is faster, ours is stronger and faster. Get over it. :icon_twis

Look darlin', I'm sorry I got your Texan titties in a twist but the fact is you've ignored my arguments over and over while attacking me and my personal qualifications. I could be a cripple in a wheelchair and my arguments still stand.

That video shows Brian rolling his shoulder and taking three square on the jaw, thus illustrating the weakness of the technique.

In the two kickers square off example if they both throw a right kick, hands-up kicker has his right hand ready to fire and arm swing-kicker is still recovering. Is one way better? I think so. you sure as sugar haven't come up with a cogent counter argument. I hope you're better at kickboxing than debate.

 

[FadeIntoViolenc]

MMA kids need to stop giving kickboxers advice on how to kick, IMO.