International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VI

[Rholk]

Bout time i guess

US Weighs Whether to Attack Houthi Rebels in Yemen

The US and its allies are considering possible military strikes against Houthi rebels in Yemen, in a recognition that a newly announced maritime task force meant to protect commercial ships in the Red Sea may not be enough to eliminate the threat to the vital waterway.

www.bloomberg.com

Progress in the campaign:

 

[Rational Poster]

It's not a comparison, though.

It's an example of what actions work, and what actions don't work, generically.

Germany is the perfect example because it had 1 clear outcome from punitive measures, and 1 clear outcome from reconstruction.

You can also look at many other countries, some of which I actually did name.

Israel has effectively occupied Palestine for a tremendous length of time, just as you would expect from a victorious party, but are seen as oppressors. This is because they have been extremely punitive.

If you're suggesting Israel has to defeat Palestine over and over and over again, that's probably because it is an oppressive state rather than one that works with the state it continually defeats.

You're avoiding the main point of the post that the attacks never ceased. It literally is irrelevant if something else worked in the past if the same conditions don't currently exist even partially.

Israelis were not the belligerents in the conflict and barely had the means to take care of their own at the time let alone literally all of the Palestinians. Israeli society was forced to rationing during the post war period due to the massive influx of Jews from all over the world being displaced.

Hundreds of Israelis were killed every year during the 1950s from Palestinian fedayeen raids. This fairy tale scenario of peace after the war you think existed just did not happen. The state of war lasted well into the 1980s.

 

[Rational Poster]

More comparison to the Germany recovery.

In total about $46B was invested directly into Germany during the post-war period. (adjusted for inflation)

Germany was a country 60x larger than Palestine is today, and the total population over 12 times larger, and they had just suffered a loss of life in excess of 8 million people.

Just between 1994-2020 the Palestinian territories received over $40B in foreign aid.

So I guess Palestinians get the Germany treatment and get to fire rockets at Israel forever.

 

[Siver!]

You're avoiding the main point of the post that the attacks never ceased. It literally is irrelevant if something else worked in the past if the same conditions don't currently exist even partially.

Israelis were not the belligerents in the conflict and barely had the means to take care of their own at the time let alone literally all of the Palestinians. Israeli society was forced to rationing during the post war period due to the massive influx of Jews from all over the world being displaced.

Hundreds of Israelis were killed every year during the 1950s from Palestinian fedayeen raids. This fairy tale scenario of peace after the war you think existed just did not happen. The state of war lasted well into the 1980s.

It's 2023 today and Israel is immensely powerful.

Why can't the take the reconstructive approach, aside from a made up idea tha Palestine won't negotiate?

 

[Rational Poster]

It's 2023 today and Israel is immensely powerful.

Why can't the take the reconstructive approach, aside from a made up idea tha Palestine won't negotiate?

Palestinians have been receiving historic amount of foreign aid per capita, especially during the last 20 years.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I figured this would get more traction in the thread...

 

[Blayt7hh]

Something like giving them the same rights but limiting the franchise?

I'm not being sarcastic, something like this could work but it's heresy to suggest in the modern world.

Im not sure entirely what you mean but most likely it would started out with limitations for them I would think. Unfortunate, but the security concerns would be real

 

[Denter]

Im not sure entirely what you mean but most likely it would started out with limitations for them I would think. Unfortunate, but the security concerns would be real

Meaning, maybe existing Palestinians become citizens of Israel, and get normal rights in a phase in over a period of say, 5 years, including the right to move around, civilian trials, ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty ), etc, but they cannot vote. Perhaps their children could get the right to vote (or not) but this would take away the immediate fear of losing the democratic vote by including the Arabs.

 

[Bob Gray]

It's 2023 today and Israel is immensely powerful.

Why can't the take the reconstructive approach, aside from a made up idea tha Palestine won't negotiate?

You mean like give them money and supplies for infrastructure that they use to build missile launchers instead?

 

[iwannabeadored]

You mean like give them money and supplies for infrastructure that they use to build missile launchers instead?

But did you condemn Hamas?

 

[iwannabeadored]

So you are saying the two state solution was never a thing to begin with????????????????

Lol I know right. Add to it that Bibi openly rejects the PA from having anything to do with Gaza. He detests the idea of a unified Palestinian state. He wants west bank and Gaza completely seperated.

 

[Rholk]

I figured this would get more traction in the thread...

I think it might be because even the most biased Hamas supporters realise that footage of Israeli tanks fighting with Hamas on the day of the terror attacks doesn't mean that "muh the IDF killed all the civilians!"

 

[Koya]

(I posted the message below two times by mistake)

 

[Koya]

I love how you rail about biased sources while constantly spamming the board with sources like Middle East Monitor thats literally funded by Qatar

Middle East Monitor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You're a disgrace. Literally a terrorist supporter.

And I still didn't post an Israeli doctor giving "confessions" from inside hamas interrogation chamber. See the difference here ?

And again the same vilifying tactic, nothing on the substance, it's all you have.

If someone criticize israel war crimes, starvation tactics, use of 900KG bombs on civilian areas or anything of many others, don't address the substance of the critic but deflect and vilify by accusing him of being a terrorist supporter. That's the new godwin point.

Hey at least I don't support killing +20K people, injuring +50K, making cripple of thousands, cutting supplies to the brink of starvation and displacing 1.5M people. When was the last time in history 1.5M were displaced and their home destroyed ? Totally not ethnic cleansing and anyone that's against it is a "terrorist supporter". Why wouldn't the people who support those clear cut acts of terror against Palestinian population be terrorist supporters instead?

See here you don't even realize how ridiculous you are.

Oh and the people like @Samjj @Rholk and especially @vision1 you can get off your high horse, you've outed yourself as as binary and incapable of nuance as that genius here by liking his post lol

 

[Koya]

No, in fact, the opposite is true. Israel has always made concessions and sought compromises towards a 2-state solution. Only Palestine has maintained a position throughout its history that was intoleratent of any Israeli state: the "river to the sea" philosophy. Only they have repeatedly refused concessions such as the offer of 95% control of the West Bank (that includes a large amount of land Israel controls now).

This video, on the other hand, does NOT reflect the official position of the Israeli government, or its executive leader, but a single ambassador. However, I'm sure they all feel that way, now. I do. Palestine has squandered its privilege to exist. They have made it clear they will never tolerate any concession the Israelis make towards a Palestinian state. It's never enough. No ceasefire is enough. No disproportionate release of prisoners is enough. No amount of restraint in engagement is enough.

They will only continue to neglect their people, electing instead to devote all resources to building tunnels in a futile war effort, rather than improve their people's lives. They will only perpetrate more unilateral rocket bombings and October 7ths. They will relentlessly escalate and provoke military conflicts.

There's only one sensible solution that ends that: a single Israeli state. Once Israel controls everything, it will be as stable as their state is itself, internally, and as humanitarian in its treatment of current Palestinians as for those Muslims who already live in Israel. Everyone's lives will be better, but the irony is the ones whose lives that will be most improved by this will be the Palestinians. And the world will enjoy a much more stable Near East. Everyone in the world will benefit from this.

It's the only practical solution. Every rational observer can see this.

I'll first answer the part where you pretend israel made concession and wanted a two state solution.

That is not true, the only israeli leader who has ever worked - and not talked - for a solution was Yitzhak Rabin and he was assassinated by a religious zionist extremist for that. Guess what ? That same ideology is in power in israel now with the Religious Zionist Party being in Netanyahu's political coalition. Also netanyahu has been caught on film as soon as 2001 saying he will do anything in his power to block the two state solution. And he passed a law about the administrative annexion of the whole west bank in june this year, transferring political power from military to civilian leadership violating every international law.

Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank

A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.

foreignpolicy.com

In June so way before Oct. the 7th. So don't give me bullshit that israel just now abandoned the two state solution : they never ever wanted it in the last 25 years and actively worked against it.

Even Israeli finances minister showed in March of this year a map of Israel including all of Palestinians territories and even Syrian territories (so kill the Arabs basically). It's still not official position when a minister says it ? Here :



Religious Israelis - who are now overrepresented in the israeli government - all say that Israel territory should expand to Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, and that the current borders including Palestinian territories should be the minimum:



To achieve this goal Netanyahou even propped up hamas for years just to undermine the Palestinian Authority, because the latter renounced more and more to violence after the end of the second intifada and it made them a credible actor for negotiations in the eyes of the international community. To block such negotiations Bibi favored hamas extremists knowing they will never negotiate nothing:

Before They Vowed to Annihilate Hamas, Israeli Officials Considered It an Asset

Hamas has long offered Israel an alibi to avoid abiding by its supposed commitment to Palestinian statehood.

theintercept.com

So no israel has not been wanting a two state solution for at least two decades stop gaslighting people about that.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Meaning, maybe existing Palestinians become citizens of Israel, and get normal rights in a phase in over a period of say, 5 years, including the right to move around, civilian trials, ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty ), etc, but they cannot vote. Perhaps their children could get the right to vote (or not) but this would take away the immediate fear of losing the democratic vote by including the Arabs.

Yeah I agree that that’s a plausible Way forward. An occupation with the goal of rebuilding, investing and ultimately integrating them into the state as equals I think eventually they could get all of the same rights - Israel isn’t a dictatorship and unfair treatment I don’t think can last forever in a democracy. It won’t happen overnight though and I think we will all be dead before it could be fully realized.

Israel has to play their role too though IMO. As a state they have to start preaching tolerance and understanding and make a concerted effort to punish people who lash out against Palestinians. There is a lot of Israeli’s that do but also a lot that don’t. We can’t expect peace as long as Jewish settlers are getting away with shit like smashing shops owned by Palestinians. Justice could go a long way to earning trust

 

[Samjj]

And I still didn't post an Israeli doctor giving "confessions" from inside hamas interrogation chamber. See the difference here ?

And again the same vilifying tactic, nothing on the substance, it's all you have.

If someone criticize israel war crimes, starvation tactics, use of 900KG bombs on civilian areas or anything of many others, don't address the substance of the critic but deflect and vilify by accusing him of being a terrorist supporter. That's the new godwin point.

Hey at least I don't support killing +20K people, injuring +50K, making cripple of thousands, cutting supplies to the brink of starvation and displacing 1.5M people. When was the last time in history 1.5M were displaced and their home destroyed ? Totally not ethnic cleansing and anyone that's against it is a "terrorist supporter". Why wouldn't the people who support those clear cut acts of terror against Palestinian population be terrorist supporters instead?

See here you don't even realize how ridiculous you are.

Oh and the people like @Samjj @Rholk and especially @vision1 you can get off your high horse, you've outed yourself as as binary and incapable of nuance as that genius here by liking his post lol

Sorry man, Hamas has got to go.

Everyone would prefer if they packed up their bags and walked out peacefully.

 

[Samjj]

Meaning, maybe existing Palestinians become citizens of Israel, and get normal rights in a phase in over a period of say, 5 years, including the right to move around, civilian trials, ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty ), etc, but they cannot vote. Perhaps their children could get the right to vote (or not) but this would take away the immediate fear of losing the democratic vote by including the Arabs.

Palestinians are currently wildly radicalized (see public support for the Oct. 7th attack).
Many non-Hamas fighters and regular “citizens” participated in the kidnapping on that day as well. Allowing that population unfettered access to Israel proper is a terrifying prospect and unrealistic at this time… maybe after another generation.

 

[Koya]

Sorry man, Hamas has got to go.

Everyone would prefer if they packed up their bags and walked out peacefully.

Don't see the point between that and liking a post calling me a terrorist supporter but whatever, not the first gaslight I face and won't be the last anyway

On to your "points": you forgot that netanyahu propped up hamas for years and I've posted the sources about that including Israeli ones so no not everyone would prefer it, in fact bibi would hate it if they walked out peacefully

Hamas is literally the consequence of a disease, which is the brutal israeli occupation of the west bank and blockade of Gaza and "mowing the lawn" doctrine of bombing them every 3 years

I've posted numerous articles and video that shows that israeli leadership does not want peace with Palestinians and that israeli popular opinion before 7th Oct was that settlers in the west bank should be supported.

Here I'll post it against, as far as 2020 half of Israelis supported annexion on the west bank :

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23A275/

August 2023, Israeli Economy minister Nir Barkay declares he wants "million of settlers in the west bank by 2050". It's a freakin minister of an important ministry, not some side stuff :

Israel ministers want million settlers in West Bank by 2050

A plan backed by Israeli government ministers seeks an increase of almost 500 percent on the 170,000 settlers currently living in the northern West Bank

www.newarab.com

edit: misspelled the name of the minister

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Post-WW2 reconstruction was only possible in Germany because hostilities actually ceased per your source.

The situations aren't remotely similar, Germans (including former soldiers ) were treated far better post WW2 than the Palestinians have been , this of course refers to west Germany, had they been put in a similar circumstance to the Palestinians things would not have worked out well for anyone.