International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. III

[William Munny]

Hopefully you mean both Israeli and Palestinian civilians (I'm assuming you do).

Oddly, this time it IS invasion that people think will save civilian lives. Most seem to agree that Israel is in the right to "do something". The actual nuts and bolts of what to do is where it gets pretty murky.

Hopefully, the door to door, ground invasion tactic will result in fewer civilian casualties.

just a terrible situation all around.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I definitely am saddened by any loss of life and Israel 100% has the right to defend itself, I just wish they went about it in a way that resulted in fewer civilian deaths. With Netanyahu tweeting about them being the children of darkness or whatever it doesn’t sound like he cares one bit about the damage they cause. I was hoping they’d at least be better than Hamas. Use that great intel to choose targets a bit more carefully. People are going to die, I get that. But 95% or higher civilian death toll? Unacceptable to me

LOL, Netanyahu and his far right party was content with death chants to his fellow jewish politicians who weren't conservative enough. Can only imagine how he feels down inside about Palestinians.

 

[BIKES!]

That person speaking to the interviewer is what we called a "true believer." Nothing short of divine intervention would change his mind.

more true believers, the hot ones have more influence

 

[BIKES!]

That's not even what I was saying plat-nerd

 

[William Munny]

It seems pretty clear that this point the Gaza limited autonomy experiment did not fucking work. It only made the problem worse. Full autonomy seems like it would be an absolute nightmare for Israel to deal with.

Hamas has got to go and the Israeli military should not be expected to carry out this campaign in a way that puts their own soldiers or citizens in exceptional risk. They should be expected to carry out military operations like any other military power. It seems completely insane to me people expect Israel to conduct operations at some standard literally none of their neighbors, all of whom have openly expressed their desire to literally genocide them again, have ever adhered to just because they're better at war and economics than they are. Israel has nuclear weapons and all of these people still exist. Does anyone thi k if Hamas had a nuke they would afford the same level of restraint?

This is a problem created by the entire international community, the West and the Arab world and the Soviet sphere, not just Israel or Palestine. But for some reason Israel is the only party that needs to show any restraint, the only party that needs to offer any concessions, the only party that has to show empathy for their enemies civilians, and for some reason the only party that gets blamed or take responsibility for their actions. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Not to mention Arab nations need to step up and start taking in refugees and giving them citizenship. It's pretty fucking bullshit since they created the majority of the refugee issue in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. It seems the IDF and Israel are held to a standard not imposed on any of their neighbors, s[ecifically those with the overt, stated intent of complete annihilation of Israel.

this is something that is regularly ignored by those opposing the actions of Israel, especially those carelessly throwing around the "genocide" term.

the IDF has the capacity of completely leveling all of Gaza, but they have not. Imagine if military capabilities were reversed. what do you think would happen to Israel and all of its denizens?

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Not to mention Arab nations need to step up and start taking in refugees and giving them citizenship. It's pretty fucking bullshit since they created the majority of the refugee issue in the first place.

That's never gonna happen because it would be the ultimate Israeli win. They could then finally claim these are not Palestinians but Egyptians, Syrians and so on.

 

[Rational Poster]

Hopefully, the door to door, ground invasion tactic will result in fewer civilian casualties.

just a terrible situation all around.

I don't know why people think the door to door thing is going to be better for civilians. They're going to be forced to fight. They're going to be forced to stay in Hamas combat outposts. They're going to be strapped with bombs and pushed toward the IDF.

12 year olds can carry AKs too.

Then on top of that the IDF will be taking massive casualties in return. Why should we expect the Israeli military to do this on purpose?

 

[sangreporsangre]

 

[Rational Poster]

That's never gonna happen because it would be the ultimate Israeli win. They could then finally claim these are not Palestinians but Egyptians, Syrians and so on.

Israel already won, repeatedly, it's time for the Arab world to join the modern age.

 

[tastaylvr]

LOL, Netanyahu and his far right party was content with death chants to his fellow jewish politicians who weren't conservative enough. Can only imagine how he feels down inside about Palestinians.

The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to Howard Sachar, "The policy of the new organization was based squarely on Jabotinsky's teachings: every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[6]

Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre that killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.

The organization committed acts of terrorism against the British, whom it regarded as illegal occupiers, and against Arabs.[7] In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments; in media such as The New York Times newspaper;[8][9] as well as by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry,[10][11] the 1946 Zionist Congress[12] and the Jewish Agency.[13] However, academics such as Bruce Hoffman and Max Abrahms have written that the Irgun went to considerable lengths to avoid harming civilians, such as issuing pre-attack warnings; according to Hoffman, Irgun leadership urged "targeting the physical manifestations of British rule while avoiding the deliberate infliction of bloodshed."[14] Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization".[15] Irgun's tactics appealed to many Jews who believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism.[16]

Irgun members were absorbed into the Israel Defense Forces at the start of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war. The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[17] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

Netanyahu's party stems from a terrorist organization. It's not surprising that this sort of violence continues to this day. They will not stop until every single Arab is removed from the land they perceive as their own. Heck they were even killing British people who they viewed as illegal occupiers before 1946 even happened.

 

[sangreporsangre]

And a green light from Washington they most certainly needed, otherwise the campaign of extermination couldn't take place. Biden is cementing his legacy here.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Netanyahu's party stems from a terrorist organization. It's not surprising that this sort of violence continues to this day. They will not stop until every single Arab is removed from the land they perceive as their own. Heck they were even killing British people who they viewed as illegal occupiers before 1946 even happened.

I'm aware. The guy is hated by his allies it seems let alone enemies. Like I said before, being a mediator between these two groups is the worst fucking job in the world because there are so many assholes on each side and they never seem to tire from their bullshit, and adding the impact of external actors who don't want peace makes this the never ending clusterfuck.

 

[terrapin]

You don't post links for "internet wars", you post links to defend your position as the internet is full of crazy nonsense. Not that I'm accusing you of that, but solid information should be shared freely among the group.

i do that too but i also cannot possibly remember every scholar or debate ive listened to or book ive read over the years on this topic or any other really. online life is just a tiny part of my life.... a very small fraction. when i am learning about a topic its not even on my radar to get links prepared for online discussions.

but also its not like what i posted is fringe knowledge anyway....

 

[Blayt7hh]

I think so:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/24/amos-yaldin-israeli-military-intelligence-netanyahu-qa-00123099#:~:text=And Netanyahu got all the,is risking and weakening every

Aha well Hamas warned them so we will just let them get away with their completely heinous crimes.

Sorry my dude I usually agree with you but clearly Israel has to get rid of this group and I don’t see how they do it without causing a lot of collateral damage. That’s a direct consequence of how Hamas chooses to fight and not Israel’s fault

 

[DEVILsSON]

Most of the people championing for the Palestinians don't even remember the dog and pony show the PLO was. lmao

Arafat was such a fucking loser.

If you had to make an educated guess who do you think is the final authority on all things Palestinians?

In Iran, it's not the president, it's the Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini.

In KSA it's not the crown prince MBS, it's his father.

Is there a higher power in Gaza/West Bank or even abroad?

And they deserved zero.

As recently as the 90s, the PLO was granted nearly every concession possible and they still shit on it anyway.

PLO never felt like it was actually negotiating. I just get the sense they never had the authority from above to do so. Or maybe it just wasn't profitable on its own.

 

[terrapin]

Yeah, they could eliminate Hamas leadership one at a time, send some assassins to the Bahrain penthouses or wherever some of these losers are staying while they're at it. Hold some UN monitored elections and go from there.

we disagree on nearly everything about this issue but i totally support regime change for Palestine. i would just like to see it done without any selfish or self serving motives on the part of any outside parties.

hamas does have to go though even in my schema which would be giving all stolen or encroached lands back to the Palestinians and letting go of any ideas for getting more land over time and building jewish temples on islamic holy cites.

 

[Hog-train]

This shit won't ever be resolved either. Not in my lifetime anyway. We can go back and forth on a forum about who gets how much blame, but it's just going to be more of the same shit.

That we can agree on. Sadly, I don't think this will get resolved anytime soon. The built up hate and enmity is too great. And both sides keep repeating the same exact actions they've been doing for decades. Maybe when Netanyahu loses power things might change.

At the end of the day, I just want the least killing of civilians and a normalization of life for all those innocent people. And I think that's what most of us (on the outside looking in) wants. It's the lopsided media assault on both sides that are dividing the international community on this.

I don't know why people think the door to door thing is going to be better for civilians. They're going to be forced to fight. They're going to be forced to stay in Hamas combat outposts. They're going to be strapped with bombs and pushed toward the IDF

That's the only way to completely eradicate Hamas. It will be bloody and costly indeed (for both civilians and the IDF soldiers.) But no other choice.

 

[Rational Poster]

That we can agree on. Sadly, I don't think this will get resolved anytime soon. The built up hate and enmity is too great. And both sides keep repeating the same exact actions they've been doing for decades. Maybe when Netanyahu loses power things might change.

At the end of the day, I just want the least killing of civilians and a normalization of life for all those innocent people. And I think that's what most of us (on the outside looking in) wants. It's the lopsided media assault on both sides that are dividing the international community on this.



That's the only way to completely eradicate Hamas. It will be bloody and costly indeed (for both civilians and the IDF soldiers.) But no other choice.

Or they could just continue doing things how they're doing and not suffer as many casualties themselves.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

It seems pretty clear that at this point the Gaza limited autonomy experiment did not fucking work. It only made the problem worse. Full autonomy seems like it would be an absolute nightmare for Israel to deal with.

Hamas has got to go and the Israeli military should not be expected to carry out this campaign in a way that puts their own soldiers or citizens at exceptional risk. They should be expected to carry out military operations like any other military power. It seems completely insane to me people expect Israel to conduct operations at some standard literally none of their neighbors, all of whom have openly expressed their desire to literally genocide them again, have ever adhered to just because they're better at war and economics than they are. Israel has nuclear weapons and all of these people still exist. Does anyone think if Hamas had a nuke they would afford the same level of restraint?

This is a problem created by the entire international community, the West and the Arab world and the Soviet sphere, not just Israel or Palestine. But for some reason Israel is the only party that needs to show any restraint, the only party that needs to offer any concessions, the only party that has to show empathy for their enemy's civilians, and for some reason the only party that gets blamed or take responsibility for their actions. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Not to mention Arab nations need to step up and start taking in refugees and giving them citizenship. It's pretty fucking bullshit since they created the majority of the refugee issue in the first place.

Are you suggesting Israel is somehow benevolent because they aren't nuking themselves?

That's quite a hot take.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

THIS is the level that Zionist propagandists have been reduced to with footage of the regime's crimes being broadcast around the world. I mean just look at this. A "journalist" who can't even try and apply any real spin anymore, because nobody who sees Palestinians as humans could possibly buy what the Israeli regime is selling at this point.

LOL this is pathetic.

Just like how the Zionists threaten to kill or arrest even Israelis that speak out. Chomsky, Peled, Levy, all receiving death threats regularly and called "Hamas propagandists" by their own people.