Guy Mezger - just short of greatness

[ryun253]

He was pretty solid.

 

[StonedLemur]

I'm guessing a lot of newbs on the forum will never even have heard of Guy Mezger. I'm not a fan of Lion's Den, but Guy seemed really cool and I think that dude is a bit of an unsung hero in MMA history.

The easy thing to do is to glance at his 30-13 career record and shrug. One might search for his most notable wins and seeing Tito Ortiz, Yuki Kondo and Semmy Schilt probably wont' blow you away. So what's the big deal? I think the big deal is the key fights he didn't win (or at least didn't get rewarded the win.

The guy had a long Pancrase career, had a short UFC stint, but the his best opportunity to make his name on the MMA scene came in the earlier Pride events. He was constantly getting matched up with guys who are today considered legends and MMA royalty, and I would argue that Guy was just as good as them, but could never catch a break when he needed it.


vs Kazushi Sakuraba

This is Mezger's first high profile fight in Pride. Sakuraba is on an absolute tear at this point of his career coming off 5 submission finishes and a win over Vitor Belfort in his previous 7 fights, and is being talked about as the best p4p fighter in the world at the time. Mezger is strong everywhere tho and bests Sakuraba in the fight. The Pride judges however call it a draw and demand an overtime round. At this point Ken Shamrock (who was Mezger's coach) flips out and tells his fighter to refuse to come out and that he won that fight. The Lions Den crew exists the ring, and Sakuraba wins by default, and thanks to that momentum he then goes on to make history in his next fight when he outlasts Royce in a 90 minute classic and becomes the Gracie Hunter.

There are very few fighters I like as much as Sakuraba, but I honestly can't make a case that he won that fight.

vs Wanderlei Silva

Mezger has now put together a couple of wins since the Sakuraba fight debacle and finds himself matched up with a new force in the Pride organization. Wanderlei is in the prime of his youth, but not quite yet the destroyer he would become, this fight is a big test for him and he will have to bring his A game here.

Mezger starts out great beating Wanderlei to almost every strike, he's landing all kinds of kicks and punches on him early and has him cut pretty good above the eye a minute into the fight. Somewhere midway through the round Wanderlei lands a good strike of his own and now he has Mezger backing up and goes for it. Mezger seems to recover very well and is dodging most of the attack now, but Wanderlei gets him in the corner and throws a headbutt right at Mezger's chin, then follows it up with a couple of punches that drop him and finish the fight.

Now I'm not gonna try to say that Silva wouldn't have won without the headbutt, it certainly looked like he was turning the tide at that point, but the truth is we will never know. Wanderlei Silva would get his first Pride knockout and he would ride that momentum and follow it up with a legendary 16 fight unbeaten streak that cemented him as one of the most feared men in MMA history.

vs. Chuck Liddell

Mezger would bounce back from the Wanderlei loss with a 4 fight win streak. He was now matched up with UFC star Chuck Liddell testing the Pride waters in his debut there. In typical Mezger style he would start off very strong by winning the striking exchanges and giving Chuck nothing to hit for the entire first round while knocking him down and frustrating him the entire round.

Of course in classic Mezger "winning til he lost" fashion, Chuck comes out swinging to begin the second round and finds that chin for a classic knockout. Chuck would follow up the win over Mezger with a legendary career and go on to become one of the great UFC champions.

vs Ricardo Arona

Arona is the new Brazilian in Pride, his first test is a tough one, but Arona already has good experience vs stiff competition with a pair of wins over Jeremy Horn, and arguably a win over the great Fedor Emelianenko (depends under which rules you score the fight). Mezger however proves to be a very difficult puzzle and Arona seems to have no answers for him. The fight wasn't a blowout or anything, but guy seemed to have clearly done more, yet Arona is given the split decision by the judges. The conspiracy theorist in me would say the Japanese wanted to build the fresh new Brazilian who's built like an action figure over a guy who's been around for a while and has several losses already.

vs Rogerio Nogueira

No easy fights for Guy, this time he gets another rising Brazilian star in Lil Nog. Again, same story as the Arona fight, Mezger seems to do more, but judges give a split decision to Nogueira who goes on to become one of the top Pride MW's.

So what's my point?

Just that MMA is a brutal sport man. If you watched his fights this is a guy that had all the gifts and was one of the strongest and most well rounded guys at the time. He gave prime legends some of their toughest fights, and arguably beat most of them. The Sakuraba fight was a pretty blatant robbery, the Arona fight was pretty bad too imo and I thought he should have got the Lil Nog decision too. The headbutt Silva landed before he knocked him out was obviously illegal, but who knows how the fight might have unfolded without it. In the case of Chuck he got beat fair and square, but I guess you could say he won every minute of that fight except for the minute where he got caught and knocked out. But a little more luck here and there, a little better judging, and you wouldn't find many sherdoggers who don't know Guy Mezger. As it is the guy is a forgotten warrior, but hopefully this thread give him some recognition.

Not forgotten by the ones that matter.
Great write up btw sir, Guy had all the skills to be great but he failed at the top...that shit happens.

Goes to show how tough it is to be at the top in this thing of ours man.

 

[pankrat]

Israel lost to the only UFC fighter he ever fought at 205 and quite frankly, Jan isn't that good. I see prime Guy plowing through both Whittaker and Israel. Shit he beat prime Sak and got screwed. Same could be said for Arona and Rogerio. The "power punchers" he succumbed to hit like HW's. I mean prime Liddel and Wandy.

I know Jan since he fought my countryman Dani Tabera (who is a WW) back in 2010. Tabera - who had an abolutely crazy shedule for a WW including Glover Teixeira - did farily well in the 1st but succumbed in the 2nd.
Since then, Jan has filled out his frame, improved his wrestling leaps and bounds and rounded his game, apart from having outstanding power and being close to 230lbs in the cage

It's ironic that you discredit Israel for losing a decision to that guy - who was champ - when Guy Mezger succumbed to a similar gameplan implemented by Akira Shoji (50lbs lighter). Shoji managed to force clinch and even get double underhooks several times, took down Guy with ouchi garis not once but twice, and Mezger was unable to back up to his feet under the pressure of the small WW by modern standards

If Jan "isnt that good". Was Shoji supposed to be "that good", in this context? The fight also took place at 205. Would you favour Shoji over Israel too?

It¡s likely Mezger could held his own with Whittaker and even Israel in initial stages of the fight. The most lilely outcome is that he would significantly slow down as the fight progressed and ended being controlled in the ground (as we seen several times), being picked apart or taking power punches in the chin that he could not cope with. Because that's was his tendency, and Israel / Whiitaker dont slow down like that, and can definitely held his own with Guy while fresh too.

 

[listrahtes]

The Sakuraba fight was a pretty blatant robbery,

Ken Shamrock is the worst coach you can possibly have. He didnt give two fucks about Mezger but made that all about his ego. Yes Guy was leading in that fight but he had still every chance to win in the overtime. Ken could have bitched afterwards but no he prevented Guy from even participating. This is also on Mezger. You have to count in questionable judging in mma all the time no matter UFC,Pride..etc. And you try to deal with it the best you can. Pride was known for admiring fighters who give everything and secure their spots and pay extra money no matter loose or win but Ken damaged Mezgers career here a lot.

Ken was always an emotional toddler and narcicist.

 

[listrahtes]

IIRC Mezger took that fight on short notice and also had an injury. But most importantly I believe that his contract stipulated a one 15’ round fight with no overtime. That’s why Ken was so pissed (rightfully so if that was true, as the Pride guys played them), and why they walked out / didn’t fight the overtime.

Oh please, if they wanted to rob Mezger they would have just given Saku the win like it happens all the time everywhere in combat sports. But they went for overtime. That was always in the play. Ken is just a pathologic liar and made this about himself instead of Guy. Guy could have won that fight and a lot of foreign fighters won their fight in Japan at that time. This was all Kens fault. The egomaniac idiot. You can bet Mezger would have fought the second round but Ken ordered him out of the ring like he had nothing to say. Classic Shamrock

 

[NikLuk]

Oh please, if they wanted to rob Mezger they would have just given Saku the win like it happens all the time everywhere in combat sports. But they went for overtime. That was always in the play. Ken is just a pathologic liar and made this about himself instead of Guy. Guy could have won that fight and a lot of foreign fighters won their fight in Japan at that time. This was all Kens fault. The egomaniac idiot. You can bet Mezger would have fought the second round but Ken ordered him out of the ring like he had nothing to say. Classic Shamrock

If Mezger had “no overtime” in his contract, Pride played them.

 

[Vil7]

Chuck's chin was crazy in his prime

His chin & his able to recover after getting dropped was exceptionally good.

 

[VinceArch]

He was gifted the win vs Tito 1.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Great thread, reminds me of the old days around these here parts. It was fun talking about the Ferrozzos, Carlos Newtons, Polar Bears, etc.

 

[TitoDome]

That was a good thread. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

 

[TheBulge]

He did beat Sakuraba and exposed that you can beat that fighter if you don't take any bribes to dive or sell to him. That fight is one of the best examples of how overrated and corrupt that org was. Made their superstar look very basic and beatable. Eventually they couldn't protect him any longer and he had to face crazy Brazilians who would rather destroy him than take a bribe.

 

[pankrat]

He did beat Sakuraba and exposed that you can beat that fighter if you don't take any bribes to dive or sell to him. That fight is one of the best examples of how overrated and corrupt that org was. Made their superstar look very basic and beatable. Eventually they couldn't protect him any longer and he had to face crazy Brazilians who would rather destroy him than take a bribe.

I think Mezger edged the decision.
The fact a juiced up top LHW could only barely edge a decision over the small WW in Sakuraba shows how good was that Jap.
Maybe too much to grasp for a shertard

 

[arrmike]

I thought it was to check a cut on Mezer's head. It wasn't until ufc 60 something that they actually restarted fights back on the mat. Insane really. I remember SUdo vs Ludwig being a bad case of that rule

Yes you are right. I remembered it incorrectly because in trying to block a knee, it did kind of look like Mezger tapped and it caused some controversy. But not the reason for the breakin action. Still a HUGE advantage for Mezger who was in a ton of trouble and I think it made Tito very reckless after the restart.

 

[Reffson]

I know Jan since he fought my countryman Dani Tabera (who is a WW) back in 2010. Tabera - who had an abolutely crazy shedule for a WW including Glover Teixeira - did farily well in the 1st but succumbed in the 2nd.
Since then, Jan has filled out his frame, improved his wrestling leaps and bounds and rounded his game, apart from having outstanding power and being close to 230lbs in the cage

It's ironic that you discredit Israel for losing a decision to that guy - who was champ - when Guy Mezger succumbed to a similar gameplan implemented by Akira Shoji (50lbs lighter). Shoji managed to force clinch and even get double underhooks several times, took down Guy with ouchi garis not once but twice, and Mezger was unable to back up to his feet under the pressure of the small WW by modern standards

If Jan "isnt that good". Was Shoji supposed to be "that good", in this context? The fight also took place at 205. Would you favour Shoji over Israel too?

It¡s likely Mezger could held his own with Whittaker and even Israel in initial stages of the fight. The most lilely outcome is that he would significantly slow down as the fight progressed and ended being controlled in the ground (as we seen several times), being picked apart or taking power punches in the chin that he could not cope with. Because that's was his tendency, and Israel / Whiitaker dont slow down like that, and can definitely held his own with Guy while fresh too.

Everybody can have a bad day and all the Guy haters seem to hang their hats on his loss to Shoji. That's weak shit. The fight game was more difficult back then. Guy was fighting 6-7 times a year. His loss against Shoji came only a few months after his
loss to a VERY large Tito Ortiz, who walked around 230 and cut to 205. That's the point. Guy was not only well-versed, he was strong. He went head to head with real LHW's in their prime. Israel on the other hand lost to Jan in his only fight at 205. I like Jan and was glad he won, but put Jan in with prime Silva, Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Arona, Nog, and he can't keep up. He's a product of new UFC. They fight for points mostly and most are just boring. At 185, Sak makes quick work of Israel IMO.

 

[Koro_11]

His hairline was receding. He'd become bald shortly thereafter. Some might call his baldness a defining feature.

 

[listrahtes]

If Mezger had “no overtime” in his contract, Pride played them.

and forfeiting the match was still the dumbest thing possible. Ken didnt do that for Guy and like I wrote I bet you Guy wanted to continue. You can do that after the match and maybe even win that way. Ken sabotaged guy in that moment to throw a hissy fit.

 

[pankrat]

Everybody can have a bad day and all the Guy haters seem to hang their hats on his loss to Shoji. That's weak shit. The fight game was more difficult back then. Guy was fighting 6-7 times a year. His loss against Shoji came only a few months after his
loss to a VERY large Tito Ortiz, who walked around 230 and cut to 205. That's the point. Guy was not only well-versed, he was strong. He went head to head with real LHW's in their prime. Israel on the other hand lost to Jan in his only fight at 205. I like Jan and was glad he won, but put Jan in with prime Silva, Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Arona, Nog, and he can't keep up. He's a product of new UFC. They fight for points mostly and most are just boring. At 185, Sak makes quick work of Israel IMO.

Its not a bad day, its a tendency on Mezger fighting legit competition, under Pancrase rule set and then in UFC/Pride. When you need a dozen excuse for a dozen losses thats weak shit imo.

Forget W/L in the record, Mezger had close, competitive fights whenever he fought legit competition. Whether if it was endurance, IQ or grappling chops what made him fell short.

Mezger didnt have bad day, what he had is bad preparation for Shojis game and the ouchi gari in particular. If you acually think Lion's Den is the pinnacle of a grappling system for MMA training you are way off mate.
Mezger under current knowledge probably comes prepare for that and has the tools to dominate or even finish the fight. Or his gas tank doesnt fail him as in several other fights.

You badly underrate Israel, Whittaker and Jan. Doesnt matter how much name value impresses you, they would be competitive with the fighters Mezger had close fights with, and outclass the best guys Mezger ever have a dominant win against. Who is btw? Tito in his debut?

 

[Reffson]

Its not a bad day, its a tendency on Mezger fighting legit competition, under Pancrase rule set and then in UFC/Pride. When you need a dozen excuse for a dozen losses thats weak shit imo.

Forget W/L in the record, Mezger had close, competitive fights whenever he fought legit competition. Whether if it was endurance, IQ or grappling chops what made him fell short.

Mezger didnt have bad day, what he had is bad preparation for Shojis game and the ouchi gari in particular. If you acually think Lion's Den is the pinnacle of a grappling system for MMA training you are way off mate.
Mezger under current knowledge probably comes prepare for that and has the tools to dominate or even finish the fight. Or his gas tank doesnt fail him as in several other fights.

You badly underrate Israel, Whittaker and Jan. Doesnt matter how much name value impresses you, they would be competitive with the fighters Mezger had close fights with, and outclass the best guys Mezger ever have a dominant win against. Who is btw? Tito in his debut?

I'm just gonna chalk it up to you don't know shit about MMA. Just another modern day UFC ball licker. Like I said, Guy was fighting 6-7 times a year, and he was fighting big dudes constantly. You don't think that matters which makes you a dumbfuck who thinks martial arts was invented in the last 10 years. I watch Jan and I see a guy who's got good, but not great skills. He got in the ring with a real fighter in Glover and got drubbed. He fights TWICE a year so plenty of prep time and time to heal, unlike Metzger. Remove head from ass.

 

[pankrat]

I'm just gonna chalk it up to you don't know shit about MMA. Just another modern day UFC ball licker. Like I said, Guy was fighting 6-7 times a year, and he was fighting big dudes constantly. You don't think that matters which makes you a dumbfuck who thinks martial arts was invented in the last 10 years. I watch Jan and I see a guy who's got good, but not great skills. He got in the ring with a real fighter in Glover and got drubbed. He fights TWICE a year so plenty of prep time and time to heal, unlike Metzger. Remove head from ass.

Keep in mind that you are here pretending that Mezger would "pawn" Israel, Whittaker or Jan while completely uncapable of delivering anything remotely resembling a knowledgeable argument.
Talking about bad days and too busy schedule as only explanation of Mezger's shortcomings, while jammerinig about Israel's loss to Jan and how bad Jan is because "I watch it".

Thats all you got. And acting tough. La virgen santa si no eres un tremendo de julay tú

 

[tasticles]

Guy never gets enough love. Dude had all the skills to be one of the greats but just couldnt get over that hump.

He lacked power, his chin wasn't that great and I think working with Ken finished off his knees, brain, and career.