Guy Mezger - just short of greatness

[Reffson]

Imagine thinking he wasnt good enough to fight the likes of Anthony Smith because the sport is so "evolved"

MMA's great evolution is a myth. A far as I'm concerned, the only things UFC fighters do better now is cut weight and win points, which sometimes are judged wrong! Prime Metzger now would likely be terrorizing the MW division because of the science of weight cutting.

 

[arrmike]

Imagine thinking he wasnt good enough to fight the likes of Anthony Smith because the sport is so "evolved"

Honestly Smith is a bad matchup for Mezger. Durable, tons of heart, ko power. Merger would win until he lost.

 

[The Old Guard]

Honestly Smith is a bad matchup for Mezger. Durable, tons of heart, ko power. Merger would win until he lost.

Smh

 

[pankrat]

MMA's great evolution is a myth. A far as I'm concerned, the only things UFC fighters do better now is cut weight and win points, which sometimes are judged wrong! Prime Metzger now would likely be terrorizing the MW division because of the science of weight cutting.

Yeah, and Akira Shoji would be two division champ. Or three.

 

[Koro_11]

Yeah, and Akira Shoji would be two division champ. Or three.

Akira Shoji was a samurai and deserves respect.... but no version of him is winning a belt in any major organization.

Guy Mezger is a different story tho. I could totally see him beating guys like Marvin Vetori, Derek Brunson, or whoever you consider a top 10 MW now other than maybe Rob and Izzy.

 

[pankrat]

Akira Shoji was a samurai and deserves respect.... but no version of him is winning a belt in any major organization.

Guy Mezger is a different story tho. I could totally see him beating guys like Marvin Vetori, Derek Brunson, or whoever you consider a top 10 MW now other than maybe Rob and Izzy.

Shoji was a badass and beat Mezger in Pride, man

I was joking anyways. No, I dont think Mezger would be top5 today. He was very complete and skilled but was also prone to get hit by power punches, even rather sloppy ones, without having the chin to withstand that power. He also had endurance issues.

A guy as Marvin, if not with skill, would beat him with pace and durability imo.
Whittaker or Israel find that chin and put him away imo.

 

[Natural Order]

Mezger is a legend, it was sad he had to retire before fighting Tito Ortiz because he was having stroke like symptoms. Hopefully it wasn't due to his fighting career and he is fine now.

He is a good dude, there was that story where a guy out on parole was beating his girlfriend and Mezger stepped in. Dude pulled out a knife and Mezger kicked his ass but had to get surgery on his hand because it was stabbed through I think. Not many people would do that.

Before fighting Ortiz? For a third time you mean?

Guy and Tito fought twice, each winning once. Tito lost in his debut in the UFC I believe. Fight was also considered a "Lightweight" fight, as classes had been split into over 200 lbs and under 200 lbs.

Anyway, Guy is definitely a legend and put together an awesome career record agains a lot of killers.

 

[Local Plata]

One of the OG Juicy Bois.

 

[Twc]

Before fighting Ortiz? For a third time you mean?

Guy and Tito fought twice, each winning once. Tito lost in his debut in the UFC I believe. Fight was also considered a "Lightweight" fight, as classes had been split into over 200 lbs and under 200 lbs.

Anyway, Guy is definitely a legend and put together an awesome career record agains a lot of killers.

Sorry, yes I meant for the last time which was scheduled in the 2010s (2013 I think).

 

[ferrisjso]

Him struggling against an alternate at UFC 13 set MMA history in motion. That alternate(who wasn't very bright) became relevant and got a yoga instructor as his agent. The rest is history.

But really the whole Pancrase is overlooked. Pancrase it was hard to have a sexy record because the best fought each other over and over and over again. So everyone's record looked like shit even if they were really fucking good.

 

[Reffson]

Shoji was a badass and beat Mezger in Pride, man

I was joking anyways. No, I dont think Mezger would be top5 today. He was very complete and skilled but was also prone to get hit by power punches, even rather sloppy ones, without having the chin to withstand that power. He also had endurance issues.

A guy as Marvin, if not with skill, would beat him with pace and durability imo.
Whittaker or Israel find that chin and put him away imo.

Israel lost to the only UFC fighter he ever fought at 205 and quite frankly, Jan isn't that good. I see prime Guy plowing through both Whittaker and Israel. Shit he beat prime Sak and got screwed. Same could be said for Arona and Rogerio. The "power punchers" he succumbed to hit like HW's. I mean prime Liddel and Wandy.

 

[Koro_11]

Him struggling against an alternate at UFC 13 set MMA history in motion. That alternate(who wasn't very bright) became relevant and got a yoga instructor as his agent. The rest is history.

But really the whole Pancrase is overlooked. Pancrase it was hard to have a sexy record because the best fought each other over and over and over again. So everyone's record looked like shit even if they were really fucking good.

Please elaborate of the yoga instructor story.

 

[ferrisjso]

Please elaborate of the yoga instructor story.

His hairline was receding. He'd become bald shortly thereafter. Some might call his baldness a defining feature.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Chuck just waded in and won by having a better chin and better power. Prime chuck could probably still get away with that tactic against modern ranked LHWs.

 

[Ozze]

Nice thread TS.

To me, back when watching Pride, Guy was like a known figure but not somebody I would follow closely. Kind like Heath Herring.

A true OG though.

 

[taugrim]

I'm guessing a lot of newbs on the forum will never even have heard of Guy Mezger.

Isn't he the guy who posts on PPV numbers?




J/K he's an OG.

 

[BLIND]

I'm guessing a lot of newbs on the forum will never even have heard of Guy Mezger. I'm not a fan of Lion's Den, but Guy seemed really cool and I think that dude is a bit of an unsung hero in MMA history.

The easy thing to do is to glance at his 30-13 career record and shrug. One might search for his most notable wins and seeing Tito Ortiz, Yuki Kondo and Semmy Schilt probably wont' blow you away. So what's the big deal? I think the big deal is the key fights he didn't win (or at least didn't get rewarded the win.

The guy had a long Pancrase career, had a short UFC stint, but the his best opportunity to make his name on the MMA scene came in the earlier Pride events. He was constantly getting matched up with guys who are today considered legends and MMA royalty, and I would argue that Guy was just as good as them, but could never catch a break when he needed it.


vs Kazushi Sakuraba

This is Mezger's first high profile fight in Pride. Sakuraba is on an absolute tear at this point of his career coming off 5 submission finishes and a win over Vitor Belfort in his previous 7 fights, and is being talked about as the best p4p fighter in the world at the time. Mezger is strong everywhere tho and bests Sakuraba in the fight. The Pride judges however call it a draw and demand an overtime round. At this point Ken Shamrock (who was Mezger's coach) flips out and tells his fighter to refuse to come out and that he won that fight. The Lions Den crew exists the ring, and Sakuraba wins by default, and thanks to that momentum he then goes on to make history in his next fight when he outlasts Royce in a 90 minute classic and becomes the Gracie Hunter.

There are very few fighters I like as much as Sakuraba, but I honestly can't make a case that he won that fight.

vs Wanderlei Silva

Mezger has now put together a couple of wins since the Sakuraba fight debacle and finds himself matched up with a new force in the Pride organization. Wanderlei is in the prime of his youth, but not quite yet the destroyer he would become, this fight is a big test for him and he will have to bring his A game here.

Mezger starts out great beating Wanderlei to almost every strike, he's landing all kinds of kicks and punches on him early and has him cut pretty good above the eye a minute into the fight. Somewhere midway through the round Wanderlei lands a good strike of his own and now he has Mezger backing up and goes for it. Mezger seems to recover very well and is dodging most of the attack now, but Wanderlei gets him in the corner and throws a headbutt right at Mezger's chin, then follows it up with a couple of punches that drop him and finish the fight.

Now I'm not gonna try to say that Silva wouldn't have won without the headbutt, it certainly looked like he was turning the tide at that point, but the truth is we will never know. Wanderlei Silva would get his first Pride knockout and he would ride that momentum and follow it up with a legendary 16 fight unbeaten streak that cemented him as one of the most feared men in MMA history.

vs. Chuck Liddell

Mezger would bounce back from the Wanderlei loss with a 4 fight win streak. He was now matched up with UFC star Chuck Liddell testing the Pride waters in his debut there. In typical Mezger style he would start off very strong by winning the striking exchanges and giving Chuck nothing to hit for the entire first round while knocking him down and frustrating him the entire round.

Of course in classic Mezger "winning til he lost" fashion, Chuck comes out swinging to begin the second round and finds that chin for a classic knockout. Chuck would follow up the win over Mezger with a legendary career and go on to become one of the great UFC champions.

vs Ricardo Arona

Arona is the new Brazilian in Pride, his first test is a tough one, but Arona already has good experience vs stiff competition with a pair of wins over Jeremy Horn, and arguably a win over the great Fedor Emelianenko (depends under which rules you score the fight). Mezger however proves to be a very difficult puzzle and Arona seems to have no answers for him. The fight wasn't a blowout or anything, but guy seemed to have clearly done more, yet Arona is given the split decision by the judges. The conspiracy theorist in me would say the Japanese wanted to build the fresh new Brazilian who's built like an action figure over a guy who's been around for a while and has several losses already.

vs Rogerio Nogueira

No easy fights for Guy, this time he gets another rising Brazilian star in Lil Nog. Again, same story as the Arona fight, Mezger seems to do more, but judges give a split decision to Nogueira who goes on to become one of the top Pride MW's.

So what's my point?

Just that MMA is a brutal sport man. If you watched his fights this is a guy that had all the gifts and was one of the strongest and most well rounded guys at the time. He gave prime legends some of their toughest fights, and arguably beat most of them. The Sakuraba fight was a pretty blatant robbery, the Arona fight was pretty bad too imo and I thought he should have got the Lil Nog decision too. The headbutt Silva landed before he knocked him out was obviously illegal, but who knows how the fight might have unfolded without it. In the case of Chuck he got beat fair and square, but I guess you could say he won every minute of that fight except for the minute where he got caught and knocked out. But a little more luck here and there, a little better judging, and you wouldn't find many sherdoggers who don't know Guy Mezger. As it is the guy is a forgotten warrior, but hopefully this thread give him some recognition.

Arona fight was a rough decision. It felt like they awarded Arona the win based off of 10 seconds of the fight. That one didnt feel good

 

[BLIND]

They stood the fighters up when Tito had a very dominant cradle and was kneeing Mezger in the head. They though Mezger tapped but he had not. Still, the restart on the feet caused Tito to shoot in and get guillotined.

I thought it was to check a cut on Mezer's head. It wasn't until ufc 60 something that they actually restarted fights back on the mat. Insane really. I remember SUdo vs Ludwig being a bad case of that rule

 

[mkt]

Guy never gets enough love. Dude had all the skills to be one of the greats but just couldnt get over that hump.

One problem is that he started in the beginning of the sport (1994). On top of that, they did crazy hard training at the Lion's Den that surely wore his body down. By the time he fought Arona and Big Nog (both SD losses), he was around 33 with 40 fights, while they were still very young. Still, in 2002-2003, he was a better fighter than anyone I can think of who started Pancrase or the UFC in the early years. Bas Rutten retired in 1999 (and had one comeback match years later) and Igor Vovchanchyn (started in 1995) was also starting losing regularly by 2002-3. All of the early guys burned out pretty young and very few evolved like Mezger. You could also make a case for Frank Shamrock, but he had long gaps (like fighting in 2000 then 2003 then 2006). He's another guy who aged out early with the constant fights and crazy Lion's Den training of the 1990s.

 

[moreorless87]

One problem is that he started in the beginning of the sport (1994). On top of that, they did crazy hard training at the Lion's Den that surely wore his body down. By the time he fought Arona and Big Nog (both SD losses), he was around 33 with 40 fights, while they were still very young. Still, in 2002-2003, he was a better fighter than anyone I can think of who started Pancrase or the UFC in the early years. Bas Rutten retired in 1999 (and had one comeback match years later) and Igor Vovchanchyn (started in 1995) was also starting losing regularly by 2002-3. All of the early guys burned out pretty young and very few evolved like Mezger. You could also make a case for Frank Shamrock, but he had long gaps (like fighting in 2000 then 2003 then 2006). He's another guy who aged out early with the constant fights and crazy Lion's Den training of the 1990s.

Really that late 90's sceen in Pancrase or in european NHB orgs like Igor was very brutal on most of those involved, I'm guessing more than anything the shear volume of fights involved whilst still being pretty high level and having to keep in high level prep almost constantly as a result.