Rewatch Tito vs Mezger 1 - two fights in one

[josh345]

I've always said this, too. Look how well Ken did wrestling against Dan Severn (260-pound D1 wrestler) in the mid-90s. And Tito wouldn't even wrestle Ken at HW years later. Of course Ken, after years of NHB and pro wrestling (and a 4-year layoff when MMA really progressed), didn't have anything for Tito in his 40s after a weight cut to 205. Tito was at least 10 years younger, in his prime and a master weight cutter. But HW Ken circa 1996 was a different beast.

how do you think prime tito and prime ken goes? I actually think tito was a good fighter. his title defense run was pretty solid. Evan tanner was a world champ. Tito beat matyushanko and beat wader lei for the belt. Jones took out an older matyushinko and i think got praise for that. Ill have to find some old ken clips.

 

[Bullitt68]

I've always said this, too. Look how well Ken did wrestling against Dan Severn (260-pound D1 wrestler) in the mid-90s. And Tito wouldn't even wrestle Ken at HW years later. Of course Ken, after years of NHB and pro wrestling (and a 4-year layoff when MMA really progressed), didn't have anything for Tito in his 40s after a weight cut to 205. Tito was at least 10 years younger, in his prime and a master weight cutter. But HW Ken circa 1996 was a different beast.

QFT. Plus, when Ken fought Frye at the beginning of that year, his knee was already so bad that he literally couldn't shoot a TD, hence that scissor leg TD to the heel hook in the first round. By the Tito fight at the end of the year, he was basically a one-legged man. At one point in their fight at UFC 40, Ken falls against the fence without Tito even doing anything, his knee just gave out. Ken was too stubborn for his own good there. He should've gotten surgery, healed up, and he could've fought Tito as healthy as he was when he fought Kimo. But had that happened, would we have gotten the Chuck/Randy saga with Tito ducking Chuck, then the epic Chuck/Tito grudge match? I so wish that Ken would've negotiated a one-off with Vince, stepped away from the WWF for a bit, and beat the fuck out of Tito. But, again, if that would've happened, then we might not have gotten the epic fight between Tito and Frank Shamrock.

History is full of these what ifs and alternate timelines...

 

[Bullitt68]

how do you think prime tito and prime ken goes? I actually think tito was a good fighter. his title defense run was pretty solid. Evan tanner was a world champ. Tito beat matyushanko and beat wader lei for the belt. Jones took out an older matyushinko and i think got praise for that. Ill have to find some old ken clips.

Randy dominated Tito at 205. Ken at 225 would've steamrolled Tito. Look at Ken's power double on the 250-pound Brian Johnston, look at him lift the 270-pound Kimo into the air, look at him stop the 260-pound Greco-Roman champ Dan Severn from taking him down. Tito had literally nothing for Ken in his prime.

 

[mkt]

how do you think prime tito and prime ken goes? I actually think tito was a good fighter. his title defense run was pretty solid. Evan tanner was a world champ. Tito beat matyushanko and beat wader lei for the belt. Jones took out an older matyushinko and i think got praise for that. Ill have to find some old ken clips.

That's hard to say because prime Ken was around 1996-7, just before he left for pro wrestling. Tito peaked around 7 years later when MMA had evolved a lot more. But still, if they fought at HW, I'd have to go with Ken. And I definitely think Ken would've taken Tito when Tito was feuding with the lion's Den in the late 90s.

 

[Bullitt68]

randy might have beat ken too though. prime randy was fucking awesome . ill check out those fights though for sure.

To be clear, the Randy comparison was to illustrate that a LHW Randy was able to stop all of Tito's TDs and take him down at will, which means that a HW Ken would've been an even tougher monster to deal with. But on the subject of a Ken/Randy match-up, submissions were always Randy's weakness. I think Ken by leg lock is the likeliest outcome. But the interesting part would've been if Randy would've been able to take Ken down. Severn couldn't, but Randy was slicker with trips. On the other hand, Randy couldn't stop Kevin Randleman or Ricco Rodriguez from taking him down, so if Ken initiated the TD, would Randy have been able to stop Ken's TDs? Prime versus prime, I give it to Ken by submission, but there was talk of a Ken/Randy fight in the mid-2000s - IIRC, the UFC wanted Ken to fight Randy at UFC 54, where Randy ended up in an epic wrestling battle (for which he didn't train much because he had staph and so also was battling compromised cardio) with Mike Van Arsdale - at which point Randy would've mauled Ken.

 

[TheMaster]

The "bullshit" that Guy had to deal with against Sakuraba was, as JKS pointed out, PRIDE's fault, not Ken's. Guy was injured and took that fight on short-notice specifically on condition, as negotiated and agreed upon beforehand, that the fight would be one round and then a decision would be rendered. But when the round ended and Guy had the advantage for a decision, they said fuck you and your deal, he either fights another round or he loses. That was PRIDE fuckery for their hometown hero and Ken told them, rightfully so, to fuck off. Considering PRIDE's occasional fuckery with decisions, it's always been weird to me that they didn't just render a verdict and award Sakuraba .

That may be, but it was Guys decision to make in the moment, not Kens. He seemed like he was willing to keep going and they could have flowed with it, it was a massive opportunity. Ken was an overbearing personality at times and this has been reported many times by ex Lion's Den guys and was apparant in this fight as well.

Yep. It was all a game for points to him, never a fight. He always looked to touch gloves and smile, like he made a cool basket or hit a home run, when he should've been looking to take people's heads off. He had no killer instinct.

I take it this is sarcasm and/or a joke

 

[Willek]

Remember when Tito made Randy tap to a leg lock and the ref missed it?

 

[Nathan LaMontagne]

Tito actually fought him as an amateur fighter. Was still in College at the time. Only fighter in the history of the UFC to fight as an amateur.

Really? I never knew that.

 

[mkt]

To be clear, the Randy comparison was to illustrate that a LHW Randy was able to stop all of Tito's TDs and take him down at will, which means that a HW Ken would've been an even tougher monster to deal with. But on the subject of a Ken/Randy match-up, submissions were always Randy's weakness. I think Ken by leg lock is the likeliest outcome. But the interesting part would've been if Randy would've been able to take Ken down. Severn couldn't, but Randy was slicker with trips. On the other hand, Randy couldn't stop Kevin Randleman or Ricco Rodriguez from taking him down, so if Ken initiated the TD, would Randy have been able to stop Ken's TDs? Prime versus prime, I give it to Ken by submission, but there was talk of a Ken/Randy fight in the mid-2000s - IIRC, the UFC wanted Ken to fight Randy at UFC 54, where Randy ended up in an epic wrestling battle (for which he didn't train much because he had staph and so also was battling compromised cardio) with Mike Van Arsdale - at which point Randy would've mauled Ken.

Yep, Randy and Ken were about the same age, but Randy aged much better. Of course, Randy aged better than just about anyone in MMA. It's worth noting that Ken started his career earlier, having 3 Pancrase fights before the UFC, so he started accumulating damage before Randy started. And the pro wrestling Ken did was really hard on his body. He'd have less damage if he'd remained in NHB/MMA in the late 90s and early 2000s and never done wrasslin'. It also left a gap in his training and skill aquisition, as that was a period where the sport evolved a lot.

 

[NicholasJBasile]

Great old skool fight



This is basically actually two fights in one.
Tito is battering Mezger on the ground with control and legal knees to the head at the time, Mezger getting hurt bad and cut and on the verge of being stopped, even looks like he possibly taps...then McCarthy stops the fight, but instead of giving the win to Tito calls a doctor check to clean up the cut...then returns them to their feet instead of the same position where Tito was maybe a few seconds from winning.

This is basically then the second fight and Mezger catches Tito with a guillotine.

Overall a great battle even though Tito actually got screwed but props to Mezger he is a tough SOB. Also went in with one glove and one bare knuckle fist.

Tito got royally fucked, but it was a very underrated fight. Mezger is one of the more underrated fighters in my opinion.

 

[NicholasJBasile]

To be clear, the Randy comparison was to illustrate that a LHW Randy was able to stop all of Tito's TDs and take him down at will, which means that a HW Ken would've been an even tougher monster to deal with. But on the subject of a Ken/Randy match-up, submissions were always Randy's weakness. I think Ken by leg lock is the likeliest outcome. But the interesting part would've been if Randy would've been able to take Ken down. Severn couldn't, but Randy was slicker with trips. On the other hand, Randy couldn't stop Kevin Randleman or Ricco Rodriguez from taking him down, so if Ken initiated the TD, would Randy have been able to stop Ken's TDs? Prime versus prime, I give it to Ken by submission, but there was talk of a Ken/Randy fight in the mid-2000s - IIRC, the UFC wanted Ken to fight Randy at UFC 54, where Randy ended up in an epic wrestling battle (for which he didn't train much because he had staph and so also was battling compromised cardio) with Mike Van Arsdale - at which point Randy would've mauled Ken.

Ken Shamrock before his injuries was a bad dude and his wrestling was very good. Folks only remember him for how he was later in his career.

 

[corrupted]

There sure was. He was one of my favorite fighters and Shamrocks star pupil which I believe harmed his career and benefited ken more than anything. I always found it odd about people thinking Karate sucks even in the old days. Keith Hackney and Mezger were both Karate experts.

"I'm Keith Hackney, I came to fight" Hackney Bless

 

[Bullitt68]

Tito actually fought him as an amateur fighter. Was still in College at the time. Only fighter in the history of the UFC to fight as an amateur.

Really? I never knew that.

Yep, he was wrestling on a college scholarship and wasn't allowed to accept prize money for any outside competitions, but he wanted to fight so bad he didn't care about the money and just fought to fight. This is why I love the old days: Fighters didn't fight to make money, or to get a social media following, they fought because they literally had to fight, there was something burning in them that made them have to get in there and fight, even for no money! Tito had not only trained with Tank Abbott, but Paul Herrera - famous for being on the receiving end of Gary Goodridge's elbow onslaught at UFC 8 - was Tito's high school wrestling coach. He was on the outside looking in for a while and desperately wanted in, and once he got in there was no turning back. And the rest is history.

Yep, Randy and Ken were about the same age, but Randy aged much better. Of course, Randy aged better than just about anyone in MMA. It's worth noting that Ken started his career earlier, having 3 Pancrase fights before the UFC, so he started accumulating damage before Randy started. And the pro wrestling Ken did was really hard on his body. He'd have less damage if he'd remained in NHB/MMA in the late 90s and early 2000s and never done wrasslin'. It also left a gap in his training and skill aquisition, as that was a period where the sport evolved a lot.

QFT.

Ken Shamrock before his injuries was a bad dude and his wrestling was very good. Folks only remember him for how he was later in his career.

It doesn't help that nobody these days seems to have seen a UFC older than the 2010s, so for most people it's not even a question of remembering, they've literally never seen Ken in his prime. But yeah, he was The World's Most Dangerous Man for a reason

 

[mkt]

It doesn't help that nobody these days seems to have seen a UFC older than the 2010s, so for most people it's not even a question of remembering, they've literally never seen Ken in his prime. But yeah, he was The World's Most Dangerous Man for a reason

Yep. The same is true for most everyone from that era. They remember the mid-2000s versions of Ken, Frye, Tank, Goodridge, etc. All those guys were much older, damaged and fighting after the sport had evolved a lot. And all those guys but Goodridge took long layoffs to do pro wrestling.

Tank and Goodridge were never the best fighters, but both were very different in '95-96 against competitors in a 2 or 3 year old sport. It's not fair to judge them years later when they fought the likes of prime Mir, Fedor and Overroid. And prime, 1990s Don Frye wouldn't lose to James Thompson.

 

[NicholasJBasile]

Yep, he was wrestling on a college scholarship and wasn't allowed to accept prize money for any outside competitions, but he wanted to fight so bad he didn't care about the money and just fought to fight. This is why I love the old days: Fighters didn't fight to make money, or to get a social media following, they fought because they literally had to fight, there was something burning in them that made them have to get in there and fight, even for no money! Tito had not only trained with Tank Abbott, but Paul Herrera - famous for being on the receiving end of Gary Goodridge's elbow onslaught at UFC 8 - was Tito's high school wrestling coach. He was on the outside looking in for a while and desperately wanted in, and once he got in there was no turning back. And the rest is history.



QFT.



It doesn't help that nobody these days seems to have seen a UFC older than the 2010s, so for most people it's not even a question of remembering, they've literally never seen Ken in his prime. But yeah, he was The World's Most Dangerous Man for a reason

Yeah -- he peaked before the sport was big, I feel.

 

[mkt]

Remember when Tito made Randy tap to a leg lock and the ref missed it?

Was the before or after Randy literally gave him a spanking?

 

[mkt]

That "Gay Mezger is my B@#ch" shirt was something by Tito. I think Ken would have put him into a living death had they fought that night. Between Titos t-shirts and quotable interviews im surprised he never had a Tito's chicken soup for the soul book

Tank actually gave him that idea. Tito wasn't very creative.

 

[Bullitt68]

Yeah -- he peaked before the sport was big, I feel.

Oh, absolutely. And while Tito, Chuck, and Randy fought the sport into the mainstream, Ken took beatings to boost the sport. When he came back to fight Tito at UFC 40, Zuffa was in rough shape and he brought a ton of eyeballs to the UFC. When he fought Rich Franklin, he was the headliner for the TUF 1 finale, which is the whole reason that I became aware of TUF. Everyone knew the name, and still knows the name, but in terms of his actual accomplishments as a fighter, very few people then, and even less now, know just how good he was.

Was the before or after Randy literally gave him a spanking?

I think that was the joke.

 

[IMPmmath]

Tank actually gave him that idea. Tito wasn't very creative.

He came up with the juice box smash though

 

[Flower2dPeople]

Really? I never knew that.

I think he was training with Tank during his college wrestling days.