Greatest of All Time update

[pclanadmin2]

so difficult to choose between fedor and anderson...

 

[MikeyLan]

You can certainly remove some ranked fighters, like Serra, when you compare number of ranked wins. Fedor will probably be the one that loses the most from that though, as he has some of his ranked wins taking place at very advantageous points in their careers.

And you don't clean out the division through beating most and then have a fan speculate how the rest would go. You clean out the division by beating everyone. It's not always fair in how those opportunities are but that's the way fighting is. Fedor was the best, but he didn't actually clean out the division.

As for losses, those of course count. I think it's far more important to have big wins than it is to retire undefeated though. Hendo isn't a good choice for GOAT imo since he's not really even been at the top of a weight class.

No one cleans out a division so who cares. Like GSP said, "there's always someone else to fight".

For GOAT losses are pretty unacceptable. One loss "negates" probably 3-4 wins, especially if they were during that fighter's prime. Losses set you seriously back in a GOAT discussion. That's why all GOAT candidates have so few losses.

 

[Its Me Austin]

Fedor didn't even clean out the hw division while in Pride. He never fought Alistair, Barnett, Werdum (in Pride), Kharitonov, etc.

 

[Squarechoke]

Last time I checked Fedor and Ando were tied. But Anderson was finished himself more than Fedor.

They have been finished an equal amount of times now. 3 regular times each and then one TKO that will have an asterisk next to it.

Hendo won a tournament, he was never UFC champion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions
Or check the article Sherdog did on UFC champions.

You're the one trying to "bend" Hendo into being a UFC champion, lol.

You said "gold". That's not specifically a belt and it doesn't mean a divisional championship. When you go into details I'll do the same.

And you do realize that your link shows Dan Henderson as a Tournament Champion, right? :icon_lol:

 

[MikeyLan]

They have been finished an equal amount of times now. 3 regular times each and then one TKO that will have an asterisk next to it.



You said "gold". That's not specifically a belt and it doesn't mean a divisional championship. When you go into details I'll do the same.

If you were uncertain as to what I meant by it (which is surprising as it's pretty conventional usage), you could've asked for clarification instead of assuming dumb shit.

 

[m25105]

Fedor didn't even clean out the hw division while in Pride. He never fought Alistair, Barnett, Werdum (in Pride), Kharitonov, etc.

Alistair was a middleweight (lhw), Barnett declined, Werdum was still rising. Cro Cop and Nogueira also did their part in keeping the contenders down.

 

[Mr. Fresca]

You can certainly remove some ranked fighters, like Serra, when you compare number of ranked wins. Fedor will probably be the one that loses the most from that though, as he has some of his ranked wins taking place at very advantageous points in their careers.

And you don't clean out the division through beating most and then have a fan speculate how the rest would go. You clean out the division by beating everyone. It's not always fair in how those opportunities are but that's the way fighting is. Fedor was the best, but he didn't actually clean out the division.

As for losses, those of course count. I think it's far more important to have big wins than it is to retire undefeated though. Hendo isn't a good choice for GOAT imo since he's not really even been at the top of a weight class.

So no one cleaned out their division then. Throughout his career Silva never fought Souza, Machida, Mousasi, Filho, Munoz, Rockhold or Dennis Kang. GSP never fought Rory, Kampann, Ellenberger, Maia, Lawler, or Askren.

 

[Squarechoke]

So Fedor didn't finish the best guys he fought? Anderson didn't finish Welterweight Demian Maia.

How's about those minute details?

I'm just talking about what he brought up. When they are fairly equal in finishing ratio (Anderson ahead by a negligible amount) I'll see it as better to finish the best guys and not do it against some lesser ones because you decide to act like a moron and make a joke out of it.

 

[MikeyLan]

They have been finished an equal amount of times now. 3 regular times each and then one TKO that will have an asterisk next to it.

The only ones that have asterisks next to them are Fedor's doctor stoppages as Fedor could've easily continued with cut/swollen eye.

No way could Anderson have continued with a broken leg. He was literally screaming in agony.
Anderson has been finished 4 times. Fedor 2.

 

[Mr. Fresca]

Fedor didn't even clean out the hw division while in Pride. He never fought Alistair, Barnett, Werdum (in Pride), Kharitonov, etc.

GSP has only fought 3 of the current top ten, and most people think he lost one of those fights.

Most people consider a division cleaned out when you have defeated anyone that certainly "deserves" a title shot. Fedor did that without question when he defeated CroCop. There was no question in anyone's mind who #1 was. None of the fighters you mentioned, except maybe Barnett, ever deserved a title shot against Fedor. No one could get past CroCop and Nog while stringing together some other wins.

 

[Ch0sen0ne]

They have been finished an equal amount of times now. 3 regular times each and then one TKO that will have an asterisk next to it.

Big difference...I fighter might be able to continue with a cut, there's no way in hell that a fighter will be able to continue with a snapped leg

 

[Squarechoke]

So no one cleaned out their division then. Throughout his career Silva never fought Souza, Machida, Mousasi, Filho, Munoz, Rockhold or Dennis Kang. GSP never fought Rory, Kampann, Ellenberger, Maia, Lawler, or Askren.

That's one way to look at it. Generally people will look at it as if there's a point where the champion has beaten every relevant contender. Cleaning a division out will always be followed by new talent, sooner or later, but that's not really relevant as no one will beat every fighter that's ever going to fight in his division. The point is that in no relevant definition did Fedor do it, even when just looking within the top organization, since Barnett was always around.

 

[knoxville80]

Fedor!!
Fedor!!
Fedor!!

 

[Squarechoke]

If you were uncertain as to what I meant by it (which is surprising as it's pretty conventional usage), you could've asked for clarification instead of assuming dumb shit.

You clarified it with your link that states that Dan Henderson is a UFC Tournament Champion. Ergo I was right to point it out.

What you meant isn't really relevant either since my main point was that you constructed a minor statistic that no one talks about and tried to pass it off as being as common as general rankings.

The only ones that have asterisks next to them are Fedor's doctor stoppages as Fedor could've easily continued with cut/swollen eye.

No way could Anderson have continued with a broken leg. He was literally screaming in agony.
Anderson has been finished 4 times. Fedor 2.

Finishes are decided by the rules, not what you would have been able to do in a street fight. A finish includes the referee or the doctor deeming you unable to continue for your own safety according to the rules.

 

[Mr. Fresca]

That's one way to look at it. Generally people will look at it as if there's a point where the champion has beaten every relevant contender. Cleaning a division out will always be followed by new talent, sooner or later, but that's not really relevant as no one will beat every fighter that's ever going to fight in his division. The point is that in no relevant definition did Fedor do it, even when just looking within the top organization, since Barnett was always around.

Then by your definition no one can be a GOAT unless they are post Pride era, because the UFC had some fighters. But you don't seem to take issue with Bellator having some fighters that aren't in the UFC.

Barnett was not "always around" in Pride. He didn't pick up a win in Pride until 2006, when I guess you could jump him to title contention. Fedor held the belt and #1 status 3 years before that.

After Fedor beat CroCop, no one questioned his status. A handful of UFC nuthuggers screamed for him to prove himself against Tim and Andrei for years and years; when he finally did, they said he had to fight all these newer fighters. He was already on the back end of his career at that point.

 

[supernova]

I'm just talking about what he brought up. When they are fairly equal in finishing ratio (Anderson ahead by a negligible amount) I'll see it as better to finish the best guys and not do it against some lesser ones because you decide to act like a moron and make a joke out of it.

Your arguing is infantile and your assertion of your opinion as fact is laughable. GOAT is in the eye of the beholder. To me, no GOAT would make a mockery out of the fight game twice. It makes me happy, even as an Anderson fan, that Chris took his soul and his leg. His actions vs Maia were despicable and his actions vs Weidman 1 were inexcusable. He earned that left hook to the chin and that shin on knee action.

Good day cur.

 

[HitMe]

GSP might very well be the most complete mixed martial artist but i put Andy and Fedor over him bc of their style.

They just fought with so much more balls than GSP, and for me that matters.

 

[Squarechoke]

Then by your definition no one can be a GOAT unless they are post Pride era, because the UFC had some fighters. But you don't seem to take issue with Bellator having some fighters that aren't in the UFC.

Barnett was not "always around" in Pride. He didn't pick up a win in Pride until 2006, when I guess you could jump him to title contention. Fedor held the belt and #1 status 3 years before that.

After Fedor beat CroCop, no one questioned his status. A handful of UFC nuthuggers screamed for him to prove himself against Tim and Andrei for years and years; when he finally did, they said he had to fight all these newer fighters. He was already on the back end of his career at that point.

You're missing one obvious point here. It was you who brought up cleaning out the division as a positive for your argument, despite Fedor not cleaning out the Pride HW division. I've never used it as an argument to support any of my opinions here and I've not said that it has anything to do with being GOAT.

You're right about how I wrote about Barnett, I messed up that sentence and wrote something that wasn't intended and was wrong. What I was supposed to write that he's always been one to be mentioned as one of the Pride greats. As for ranking, I don't remember rankings back then but seeing how Coleman was ranked for doing nothing for years Barnett should have been ranked when he fought Cro Cop.

I don't know why you bring up Fedor's status as an argument. I've already stated that Fedor was the best, regardless of whether he cleaned out the division, in a post to you.

 

[Squarechoke]

Your arguing is infantile and your assertion of your opinion as fact is laughable. GOAT is in the eye of the beholder. To me, no GOAT would make a mockery out of the fight game twice. It makes me happy, even as an Anderson fan, that Chris took his soul and his leg. His actions vs Maia were despicable and his actions vs Weidman 1 were inexcusable. He earned that left hook to the chin and that shin on knee action.

Good day cur.

You managed to be irrelevant (I've never stated that finishes make anyone GOAT), wrong (I very clearly wrote my post as a statement of personal opinion) and hypocritical (you're being pretty infantile yourself).

Well done, chap.

 

[iwhoopedbatman]

Well at least the right guy came in first.