Law Great American Outdoors Act

[Deorum]

I think October would be perfect, although like @Deorum said it is possible to get snow at that time. Are you just going to view it, or to hike? I wouldn’t want to do either in July-August tbh, especially hiking. Fuck that. It’s cooler there than, say, the Phoenix or Tucson area but still probably 95 degrees or so, that shit can get overwhelming quick if you’re hiking.


Not just at the Grand Canyon but in general, people never seem to being enough water hiking in AZ. Even short hikes, if something happens, someone gets injured, or disoriented/lost, heatstroke and dehydration overwhelm people very very quickly. If you’re in the high desert, the drop off in temperature when the sun goes down is very very significant. The desert is very dry, incredibly hot and dehydrating, and get can quite cold if you’re at elevation as well.

That's why I recommended the North Rim to LDB in particular. The extra 1000-1800 feet in elevation changes everything about it, and he also avoids the swamped out summer tourist hordes. I was just there during the busiest weekend of the year for the NPS nationwide, and we were often the only damn car on the road in either direction, had several overlooks to ourselves in one of the most famous national parks in the world, just unreal. There are lots of worthwhile rim-level hikes, but even if he goes inner canyon via North Kaibab trail down to the Coconino Overlook or Supai Tunnel, the elevation is damn near on par with the South Rim; even Redwall Bridge is still at over 6,000 feet.

 

[BFoe]

That's why I recommended the North Rim to LDB in particular. The extra 1000-1800 feet in elevation changes everything about it, and he also avoids the swamped out summer tourist hordes. I was just there during the busiest weekend of the year for the NPS nationwide, and we were often the only damn car on the road in either direction, had several overlooks to ourselves in one of the most famous national parks in the world, just unreal. There are lots of worthwhile rim-level hikes, but even if he goes inner canyon via North Kaibab trail down to the Coconino Overlook or Supai Tunnel, the elevation is damn near on par with the South Rim; even Redwall Bridge is still at over 6,000 feet.

I’d really like to get back there, I was only there once when I was a kid. My gf was there with her sisters this past spring, it was their first time seeing it and of course they were blown away. My dad hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim, which I’m sure you know is a crazy hike.

I can’t remember if I’ve ever mentioned that I was born and raised in AZ, I lived there for probably 25 years or more of my life and still have friends and family there. I was last in AZ this past Christmas.

 

[koquerelle]

Also proud of Big WYO for not implementing the same sort of idiotic anti-conservation wildlife policies. It's a flat-out better state than Montana. Like so many other things North - Northern Europe, North Dakota (lol), North Rim - the Northern Range of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is GOATed. It epitomizes "Great American Outdoors". You can also find many, many exceptional trout fishing spots in this area of the park, @koquerelle.

I saw videos of the beautiful rivers. It's supposed to be a fly fishing paradise. I don't fly fish often. I'm going to have to practice a lot before going. Good thing the trip isn't in the near future.

We recently decided 2026 is our target. It give us time to save $25-30K because we don't want to make any compromise on this experience of a lifetime. I made a rough estimate and it's going to be more than 80 hours in the car (only accounting for the main trip). We want to take our sweet time and savour every day.

I will have many questions for you. Tx for being such a good source of info. Much appreciated.

 

[Deorum]

I’d really like to get back there, I was only there once when I was a kid. My gf was there with her sisters this past spring, it was their first time seeing it and of course they were blown away. My dad hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim, which I’m sure you know is a crazy hike.

I can’t remember if I’ve ever mentioned that I was born and raised in AZ, I lived there for probably 25 years or more of my life and still have friends and family there. I was last in AZ this past Christmas.

To live here that many years and only go once as a little tot is crazy, man. You owe that adventure to yourself, get it done before 50! I imagine you'd be taking off from Phoenix? It really won't seem like it on paper when mapping it out, but I promise you that the extra drive and effort to reach the North Rim is worthwhile. The (North Kaibab) national forest up there that borders and surrounds it is straight-up enchanted and considerably more beautiful than even the Sitgreaves (Payson) or Coconino (Flagstaff) national forests. That is a wild claim because those are two of the best in the entire country, but it's nonetheless true.

 

[Deorum]

We recently decided 2026 is our target. It give us time to save $25-30K because we don't want to make any compromise on this experience of a lifetime. I made a rough estimate and it's going to be more than 80 hours in the car (only accounting for the main trip). We want to take our sweet time and savour every day.

Yeah, that's one hell of an adventure. Are you still planning on it being a predominantly cross-country Canadian trip with a specific drop-in USA point? I don't imagine Quebec has too many cities or towns with an elevation over 1,000 feet above sea level? (@Loiosh). And that's something to be mindful of because you are going into high country by the time you get into northwest Wyoming. The mean elevation of the Yellowstone plateau at "ground level" (i.e., accessible by road and vehicle) is 8,100 feet; or nearly 3,000 feet higher than the summit of Mont D'Iberville.

I will have many questions for you. Tx for being such a good source of info. Much appreciated.

There is so much to do, see, and enjoy that it's genuinely fucking mindblowing. From possessing more active hydrothermal features than the rest of the world combined to having the highest concentration of mega-fauna wildlife in the western hemisphere to the beauty of the lakes, rivers, and waterfalls to the forests, meadows, and valleys to the boating, hiking, and fishing recreational activities to the museums, restaurants, rodeos, and shooting ranges in old west gateway towns. Also, can't forget about the scenic mountain drives...

The Beartooth Highway is an All-American Road and National Scenic Byway in the western United States on a section of U.S. Route 212 in Wyoming and Montana between Red Lodge and the Northeast entrance of Yellowstone National Park. It crests at Beartooth Pass in Wyoming at 10,947 feet (3,337 m) above sea level, and was called "the most beautiful drive in America," by late CBS News correspondent Charles Kuralt. Because of heavy snowfall at the top, the pass is usually only open for about five months per year, from mid-May to mid-October, weather conditions permitting. When driving east to west, the highest parts of the Beartooth Highway level off into a wide plateau near the top of the pass, then descend to the junction with Chief Joseph Scenic Byway (Wyoming Highway 296) near Cooke City.



^ Pilot Peak almost gives Grand Teton a run for its money.

 

[Rob Battisti]

@Deorum

I was thinking about it this morning — how can someone love something they don’t know?

How can someone love what America offers when they don’t experience it? How can they love our beautiful nation, if they don’t know it? If they don’t know it’s history? If they don’t know why it was fought so hard for?

This is why it really pains me to see this generation coming up being so ignorant to our history.

It’s hard not to feel like it’s a part of a larger effort to redefine our past as poisoned.

“He who controls the past, controls the future”

 

[koquerelle]

Yeah, that's one hell of an adventure. Are you still planning on it being a predominantly cross-country Canadian trip with a specific drop-in USA point? I don't imagine Quebec has too many cities or towns with an elevation over 1,000 feet above sea level? (@Loiosh). And that's something to be mindful of because you are going into high country by the time you get into northwest Wyoming. The mean elevation of the Yellowstone plateau at "ground level" (i.e., accessible by road and vehicle) is 8,100 feet; or nearly 3,000 feet higher than the summit of Mont D'Iberville.



There is so much to do, see, and enjoy that it's genuinely fucking mindblowing. From possessing more active hydrothermal features than the rest of the world combined to having the highest concentration of mega-fauna wildlife in the western hemisphere to the beauty of the lakes, rivers, and waterfalls to the forests, meadows, and valleys to the boating, hiking, and fishing recreational activities to the museums, restaurants, rodeos, and shooting ranges in old west gateway towns. Also, can't forget about the scenic mountain drives...

The Beartooth Highway is an All-American Road and National Scenic Byway in the western United States on a section of U.S. Route 212 in Wyoming and Montana between Red Lodge and the Northeast entrance of Yellowstone National Park. It crests at Beartooth Pass in Wyoming at 10,947 feet (3,337 m) above sea level, and was called "the most beautiful drive in America," by late CBS News correspondent Charles Kuralt. Because of heavy snowfall at the top, the pass is usually only open for about five months per year, from mid-May to mid-October, weather conditions permitting. When driving east to west, the highest parts of the Beartooth Highway level off into a wide plateau near the top of the pass, then descend to the junction with Chief Joseph Scenic Byway (Wyoming Highway 296) near Cooke City.



^ Pilot Peak almost gives Grand Teton a run for its money.

That is indeed a lot of elevation.

We're going directly south in NY State and then make our to Wyoming. We'll have a decision to make after Chicago: go through Iowa and Nebraska or go though Wisconsin and South Dakota (both are 26 hours car ride). It's going to depend on the attractions and fishing opportunities.

Then we can head north to visit family in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

 

[spamking]

America’s National Parks Are Beset by Long Lines, Increased Vandalism

"The amount of full-time equivalent park employees in the National Park Service fell 20% between the 2010 and 2023 fiscal years, according to federal data. Park visitation rose 16% to 325.5 million over that stretch, and the park service got more land to oversee."

"The latest funding bill, which passed the House before the summer recess, would eliminate more than 400 positions next year, according to Democrats on Capitol Hill."

This is what we are dealing with. And nobody in DC gives a shit. They'll all talk about how much they love our national parks. Funding them? No thanks. Especially when it comes to Republicans. One of the reasons I will never support a Republican as long as I live, unless they change their utter disdain for funding public lands in this country.

Are a lot of folks retiring and is NPS losing those FTEs?

Are the federal positions being eliminated, or are they being replaced with contractors, or being cut altogether?

 

[spamking]

I have a major problem with drilling on public land. Because once it's under control of an oil or gas company, it's not longer public. It's marked with no trespassing signs. Roads that were open to the public are gated off. And we do an absolute shit job of holding any of these companies to any environmental standards.

I saw this first hand when I lived in New Mexico. I'd have to travel out onto BLM land to get a particular type of soil to side in some restoration masonry work I was doing on some native american ruins. And on the way we'd have to snake our way past hundreds of drilling pads including many that were clearly not in use anymore, but the sites were filled with trash from old pipelines to open wastewater pits. Just left there. It disgusted me. But it turns out there's almost no enforcement of the regulations because there's not enough employees to do it.

There are a few units managed by the national park service as designated National Preserves and National Recreation Areas that allow hunting. But as far as the National Parks themselves, there should never and will never be hunting allowed on those grounds. The money from licenses shouldn't be a factor in that decision, it goes against the mission of the National Park Service.

Don't most ranchers who lease public land for grazing also try to block access and keep people out?

 

[jk7707]

@Deorum

I was thinking about it this morning — how can someone love something they don’t know?

How can someone love what America offers when they don’t experience it? How can they love our beautiful nation, if they don’t know it? If they don’t know it’s history? If they don’t know why it was fought so hard for?

This is why it really pains me to see this generation coming up being so ignorant to our history.

It’s hard not to feel like it’s a part of a larger effort to redefine our past as poisoned.

“He who controls the past, controls the future”

People tend to live in bubbles. If that bubble doesn't include going out and visiting these special places, it can be hard to break someone out of it. That was me until I was 22. I loved in Philly and my vacations were to the Jersey shore. That's it. My whole perspective changed when I got to fly out to Colorado to see a friend who had moved there. It was like a whole different world.

In the park service our philosophy is to help people people make personal connections to these places to foster a shared sense of ownership. Because once you make that connection, and people starting caring about these places, they also tend to want to take care of them too.

Seeing that connection form for people have been some of the most powerful and gratifying moments in my career as a ranger. Seeing someone walk out into a coastal redwood grove for the first time and just drop to their knees and cry is something that'll stick with me the rest of my life.

 

[jk7707]

Are a lot of folks retiring and is NPS losing those FTEs?

Are the federal positions being eliminated, or are they being replaced with contractors, or being cut altogether?

Folks are retiring and the positions aren't being filled because of the budget. So they just stack those duties on top of someone else, which inevitably leads to burnout and shitty morale. Two major issues in the NPS.

 

[jk7707]

Don't most ranchers who lease public land for grazing also try to block access and keep people out?

In my experience I haven't seen that. But it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Deorum]

Don't most ranchers who lease public land for grazing also try to block access and keep people out?

Yeah, lol.

That is indeed a lot of elevation. We're going directly south in NY State and then make our to Wyoming. We'll have a decision to make after Chicago: go through Iowa and Nebraska or go though Wisconsin and South Dakota (both are 26 hours car ride). It's going to depend on the attractions and fishing opportunities. Then we can head north to visit family in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

SoDak, 100%. The interstate drive through Iowa and Nebraska has been described as the most boring in the country. Granted, for about 80% of the ride through South Dakota, the only thing you'll see is cattle and cropland (Welcome to Heartland, USA!). But then you run into Badlands National Park, Black Hills National Forest, and the Mount Rushmore National Memorial in rapid succession with towns like Deadwood, Sturgis, and Spearfish in the vicinity to roll through very close to the Wyoming border. And then right across into Big WYO, it's a short detour to visit Devil's Tower National Monument, which was the first to be given such a designation and by none other than Theodore Roosevelt. It's a collection of excellent appetizers.

Next summer we have the Grand Canyon road trip planned for my eldest's 25th and my youngest's 16th birthdays! Trying to convince them on October...

I think October would be perfect, although like @Deorum said it is possible to get snow at that time. Are you just going to view it, or to hike?

The drive down to the North Rim via AZ-67 can also be quite beautiful.

@Deorum

I was thinking about it this morning — how can someone love something they don’t know?

How can someone love what America offers when they don’t experience it? How can they love our beautiful nation, if they don’t know it? If they don’t know it’s history? If they don’t know why it was fought so hard for?

This is why it really pains me to see this generation coming up being so ignorant to our history.

It’s hard not to feel like it’s a part of a larger effort to redefine our past as poisoned.

“He who controls the past, controls the future”

We talk about preserving the country's greatest natural features for future generations but probably don't focus enough on the present one. My love for it was instilled early by my dad. He was no environmental activist but a rugged AF outdoorsman, and as a third-generation farmer, he also understood the importance of good stewardship of the land. The destinations for our family vacations and road trips were never abroad or off to major cities, resorts, and man-made attractions but national parks and forests. The early childhood trips through Wyoming and Montana to Yellowstone, Grand Teton, and Glacier left a lifetime impact. After he turned the farm operations over to my uncles and we moved to AZ, we went to the Grand Canyon within the first week. It also put us in close proximity to California, but he had no interest in places like LAX or SFO. So, instead we went to Sequoia and Redwood.

In the park service our philosophy is to help people people make personal connections to these places to foster a shared sense of ownership. Because once you make that connection, and people starting caring about these places, they also tend to want to take care of them too.

Seeing that connection form for people have been some of the most powerful and gratifying moments in my career as a ranger. Seeing someone walk out into a coastal redwood grove for the first time and just drop to their knees and cry is something that'll stick with me the rest of my life.

I think a new, young convert was won over this summer. My 6-year-old son got his first national park experience and hasn't stopped talking about it since we got back -- he pulls out the extra map a ranger handed him after the program we attended and studies it every day, lol. The junior ranger badge is his most prized possession, and the thank you drawing he created for me is one of mine. These are the experiences and memories that the NPS fosters.



Roll out of the rustic cabin, and the Transept is virtually exploding right in your face, like what's up.



Pan left, and you can see Humphrey's Peak over 120 miles away as the condor flies to the south.



And the night skies, holy freakin' shit.



Have Fun, @Mr Holmes.

 

[Deorum]

This is why it really pains me to see this generation coming up being so ignorant to our history. It’s hard not to feel like it’s a part of a larger effort to redefine our past as poisoned.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Neither has @Long Dark Blues, tbf.

The majority of the NPs are located in the American West, and 80% of the US population lives east of the Missouri River. But you're probably right. DJT couldn't even pronounce "Yosemite", and apparently one of the determing factors to get him on board with the legislation came down to someone on his staff showing him a single photo within Black Canyon of the Gunnison, lol. Whatever, though. IDGAF, he signed the damn bill.

My wife and I drove coast to coast across Canada a couple of summers ago and then crossed the border and drove coast to coast back across the US. We have some pretty amazing National and Provincial parks in Canada, but I feel like your Mount Rainier and Yellowstone National Parks are the most sublime landscapes I've ever experienced aside from the Swiss Alps.

(I love Walden Pond, too, but that's tied up in my love for Thoreau, and like Thoreau is a lot more understated.)

The plan was to do Route 66 this summer with my brother-in-law, with a detour to the Grand Canyon, but he came down with diverticulitis, so it will have to wait. North America has some insane vistas and I'm with you in being happy to give credit to anyone who takes concrete actions to preserve them.

 

[Deorum]

My wife and I drove coast to coast across Canada a couple of summers ago and then crossed the border and drove coast to coast back across the US. We have some pretty amazing National and Provincial parks in Canada, but I feel like your Mount Rainier and Yellowstone National Parks are the most sublime landscapes I've ever experienced aside from the Swiss Alps.

(I love Walden Pond, too, but that's tied up in my love for Thoreau, and like Thoreau is a lot more understated.)

The plan was to do Route 66 this summer with my brother-in-law, with a detour to the Grand Canyon, but he came down with diverticulitis, so it will have to wait. North America has some insane vistas and I'm with you in being happy to give credit to anyone who takes concrete actions to preserve them.

Hey, it's great to see you around again. There are posters ITT with plans to do pretty much those exact same things, lol. I think the key advantage America possesses is down to the fact that the USA is the only country in the world with three distinct highland mountain regions (Rockies, Sierra Nevada, Cascades), and that is in addition to the bounty of natural beauty that the Colorado Plateau and Pacific Coast encompass. The diversity of the geology, ecosystems, and landscapes is pretty much unparalleled -- and it's all packed into the western half. The Grand Canyon will still be here waiting for your arrival. I've got a bunch of posts scattered throughout with a heavy dose of opinions, but it's based on direct experience and knowledge. It's my home turf, and so I want people to get the absolute best out of it.

 

[Deorum]

I'd like to visit Crater Lake one day.

I didn’t make it there but spent a few days traveling along the coast. It’s freakin gorgeous.

How expansive is your NP checklist these days? Mine is actually pretty lean, all things considered, although I've never really approached or looked at it like that. I've had ample opportunity to visit new places, only to opt for the same established favorites over and over again. I have an unofficial boycott towards the Utah parks even though they're amongst the closest to me and could easily be hit any time I'm on the NR, but I'd rather spend all my time there. I ran into a guy who was taking his elderly father on a bucket list trip that had just come from Zion to the Grand Canyon -- told me it was packed and 100+, as we stood in a breezy 74 degrees (8,000+ ft Elevation Bless) and practically the only people on the Transept trail on the 4th of July. I will also happily blow right by possible detours and routes on my way to Wyoming.

 

[Cole train]

This came up in recommended vids



One could say globalism might have been mistake in same ways, the fact that outdoors is somewhat becoming scarce resource is crazy to me

 

[Deorum]

This came up in recommended vids



One could say globalism might have been mistake in same ways, the fact that outdoors is somewhat becoming scarce resource is crazy to me

I'd say globalism and social media popularization (plus clout chasing) in conjunction with a lack of NPS funding and ranger short staffing are all major contributing factors. There's a lot of foreign nationals visiting these places, and while Chinese tourists are notoriously fucking terrible, I often find that Canadians and most European nationalities behave better than a lot of US citizens. There are workarounds with crown jewels like Grand Canyon and Yellowstone (and they also badly disable or kill a lot of people, lol), but not so much with other destinations like Arches, Great Smokies, Rocky Mountain, Yosemite, and Zion.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Hey, it's great to see you around again. There are posters ITT with plans to do pretty much those exact same things, lol. I think the key advantage America possesses is down to the fact that the USA is the only country in the world with three distinct highland mountain regions (Rockies, Sierra Nevada, Cascades), and that is in addition to the bounty of natural beauty that the Colorado Plateau and Pacific Coast encompass. The diversity of the geology, ecosystems, and landscapes is pretty much unparalleled -- and it's all packed into the western half. The Grand Canyon will still be here waiting for your arrival. I've got a bunch of posts scattered throughout with a heavy dose of opinions, but it's based on direct experience and knowledge. It's my home turf, and so I want people to get the absolute best out of it.

Appreciate the welcome back. I had to get out for a bit, because I was finding myself getting into these weird spiraling verbal battles with strangers over things that I could just as easily be completely wrong about as being right, but feeling I had to defend endlessly.

I'm determined not to go down that path this time and if I do find it happening, I'll just sign out again. These sorts of threads and conversations are much more what I'm looking for. So thanks for starting it.