Former top Vatican official says pope should resign over abuse crisis

[Peter Smits]

Bruno Sardine : Private Inbreastigator is on the case

 

[luckyshot]

Ummmmm.......Why can't all Vigano's allegations be true and also have nothing to do with homosexuality in the church? Given what we already know to be true, it does not really seem that far fetched, does it?



Oh, Lucky.......I can't believe you came out with this one. We are normally so close on these things.

People should never, ever, enter an organization or group where the open criticism and scrutiny of it's leaders or doctrine is considered disobedience, or being a 'suppressive person', or whatever they choose to call it. That is, quite literally, one of the fundamental cornerstones of a cult.

You can call it what you want, but a Catholic must abide by pronouncements of the Pope. There are things that I would change if I was the Pope. But I’m not.

A cult is organized around a charismatic person. The Church is not organized around a person, but an institution — apostolic succession dating back to Christ himself. As a Catholic, I do not subordinate my will and judgment to another man; I subordinate my will and judgment to the collective wisdom of two millennia of Saints unfolding into and through the present.

@jax7
Read this, please.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/distinctly-catholic/has-ewtn-schism-begun

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I am done with the Catholic Church. I considered myself a Catholic for some time, but I am moving on. I will still read Christian writers, but I will no longer be involved with the institution or call myself a Catholic.

My mind is a Buddhist temple, the truth is simple
I try to be principled
Walking with a warrior spirit
It ain't nothing like learning from first hand life experience
I'm a realist, that's all I deal with
Respect the truth, that's all I build with
A child of the universe
My religion is life and it's just as valid
I strive for balance

 

[luckyshot]

I am done with the Catholic Church. I considered myself a Catholic for some time, but I am moving on. I will still read Christian writers, but I will no longer be involved with the institution or call myself a Catholic.

My mind is a Buddhist temple, the truth is simple
I try to be principled
Walking with a warrior spirit
It ain't nothing like learning from first hand life experience
I'm a realist, that's all I deal with
Respect the truth, that's all I build with
A child of the universe
My religion is life and it's just as valid
I strive for balance

What in this documnet did you formerly find true that you now find false?

 

[Grenz]

You can call it what you want, but a Catholic must abide by pronouncements of the Pope. There are things that I would change if I was the Pope. But I’m not.

A cult is organized around a charismatic person. The Church is not organized around a person, but an institution — apostolic succession dating back to Christ himself. As a Catholic, I do not subordinate my will and judgment to another man; I subordinate my will and judgment to the collective wisdom of two millennia of Saints unfolding into and through the present.

@jax7
Read this, please.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/distinctly-catholic/has-ewtn-schism-begun

That sounds every bit as insane as the shit Ripskater and TCK say.

 

[luckyshot]

That sounds every bit as insane as the shit Ripskater and TCK say.

Well, it’s Christianity. You either believe it or you don’t.

The difference between Rip and TCK and Catholicism is that they believe God came into the world, left a book, and then peaced out leaving man to interpret it.

Catholics believe God entered the world and instituted a Church, a mystical communion of believers destined to enter into every nation and every race, to be His Body on Earth until the end of the world.

Some of the greatest minds in history— Dostoyevsky, Aquinas, Tolkien— and some of the greatest hearts in history— Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Theresa, Saint Francis— lived from and through this truth.

 

[Grenz]

Well, it’s Christianity. You either believe it or you don’t.

I obviously don't, so we're probably never going to see eye to eye on this.

The difference between Rip and TCK and Catholicism is that they believe God came into the world, left a book, and then peaced out leaving man to interpret it.

That's putting it mildly.

Catholics believe God entered the world and instituted a Church, a mystical communion of believers destined to enter into every nation and every race, to be His Body on Earth until the end of the world.

We've had 2,000 years of history that proves to us the Catholic Church is utterly fallible and at times deeply morally corrupt. This is the organization that drove the Inquisition, sold indulgences in some sort of pay-for-forgiveness scheme, and is now involved in a massive child molestation scandal: how could this organization be anything other than deeply human, and not at all 'divine' ('divine' as in 'of the Abrahamic god, as per Christian thought)? If the Abrahamic god is down with torturing - in some of the worst ways imaginable - persecuting and killing his dissenters, child molestation, then hes clearly not the omnipotent god of the bible. If he is the omnipotent god of the bible, eternally good, then the Catholic Church does not reflect this, and thus we can see, they're just a bunch of ordinary men, not saints, and the pope is also just another man, not special at all, just in a higher position of authority, and authority granted by man, not god.

 

[luckyshot]

I obviously don't, so we're probably never going to see eye to eye on this.



That's putting it mildly.



We've had 2,000 years of history that proves to us the Catholic Church is utterly fallible and at times deeply morally corrupt. This is the organization that drove the Inquisition, sold indulgences in some sort of pay-for-forgiveness scheme, and is now involved in a massive child molestation scandal: how could this organization be anything other than deeply human, and not at all 'divine' ('divine' as in 'of the Abrahamic god, as per Christian thought)? If the Abrahamic god is down with torturing - in some of the worst ways imaginable - persecuting and killing his dissenters, child molestation, then hes clearly not the omnipotent god of the bible. If he is the omnipotent god of the bible, eternally good, then the Catholic Church does not reflect this, and thus we can see, they're just a bunch of ordinary men, not saints, and the pope is also just another man, not special at all, just in a higher position of authority, and authority granted by man, not god.

The Church is deeply human. The Church claims infallibility of the teaching in the matters of faith. That is the provenance of it’s divine guidance. It never said it could prevent sin from entering into the world or its own ranks.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

What in this documnet did you formerly find true that you now find false?

I do not find any of it false. I just cannot bring myself to be a part of the church at this moment.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I never bought any argument of celibacy leading to priests becoming pedos.

Why not?

Anyway not all child molesters are actually pedos as strange as that sounds. The best analogy that might explain that is that not all prison rapist are homosexuals, its just the extreme stress of their environment that induces a behavior they would normally not engage in.

There are many child molesters who, when hooked up to a plesthysmograph, don't actually get aroused by images of children as self admitted pedos do. And yet they still did the deed so what accounts for that? I don't know but my suspicion has always been that there's some set of circumstances that, when combined with certain personalities, can induce this behavior in individuals who in a different setting would not otherwise act that way. I think celibacy is a part of it because according to prison rapist themselves it partly drives that behavior and I think its having an analogous effect on priests.

The more likely scenario is that pedos seek out positions where they will be close to kids and have authority over them i.e. priests, coaches, teachers, cops etc.....

What makes you think that is more likely? That's quite a commitment for a pedo to undertake. And as I said not all child molesters are actually pedos in the sense that they have an involuntary arousal to children so what do you think accounts for the existence of these individuals?

 

[spamking]

This wouldn’t change a thing.

People aren’t fucking kids because they can’t get married.

Plus your theory would make sense if married men weren’t molesting kids. But they are.

Which group of men molests kids most commonly?

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Which group of men molests kids most commonly?

Getting married doesn’t stop people from molesting kids.

It’s insane you even think that’s the issue

 

[luckyshot]

Why not?

Anyway not all child molesters are actually pedos as strange as that sounds. The best analogy that might explain that is that not all prison rapist are homosexuals, its just the extreme stress of their environment that induces a behavior they would normally not engage in.

There are many child molesters who, when hooked up to a plesthysmograph, don't actually get aroused by images of children as self admitted pedos do. And yet they still did the deed so what accounts for that? I don't know but my suspicion has always been that there's some set of circumstances that, when combined with certain personalities, can induce this behavior in individuals who in a different setting would not otherwise act that way. I think celibacy is a part of it because according to prison rapist themselves it partly drives that behavior and I think its having an analogous effect on priests.

What makes you think that is more likely? That's quite a commitment for a pedo to undertake. And as I said not all child molesters are actually pedos in the sense that they have an involuntary arousal to children so what do you think accounts for the existence of these individuals?

The majority of molestations were between homosexual priests and adolescent male victims.

Reprensible? Of course. Illegal? Certainly. Exploitative? Obviously.

But not pedophilia in the strict sense.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Why not?

Anyway not all child molesters are actually pedos as strange as that sounds. The best analogy that might explain that is that not all prison rapist are homosexuals, its just the extreme stress of their environment that induces a behavior they would normally not engage in.

There are many child molesters who, when hooked up to a plesthysmograph, don't actually get aroused by images of children as self admitted pedos do. And yet they still did the deed so what accounts for that? I don't know but my suspicion has always been that there's some set of circumstances that, when combined with certain personalities, can induce this behavior in individuals who in a different setting would not otherwise act that way. I think celibacy is a part of it because according to prison rapist themselves it partly drives that behavior and I think its having an analogous effect on priests.

What makes you think that is more likely? That's quite a commitment for a pedo to undertake. And as I said not all child molesters are actually pedos in the sense that they have an involuntary arousal to children so what do you think accounts for the existence of these individuals?

I've been in some dry spells in a kid and never had the urge to fuck a kid or a dude.

I don't even buy the hay dude in prison scenario.

Rapists tend to get off on the idea of overpowering and forcing other people. There are known rapists that rape both sexes aiming for the weak.

That explains prisons.

It could also explain the child molesters that aren't attracted to kids (gonna need some sources on that).

And I don't know why you think picking an occupation or hobby that gives you access to kids would be considered a big undertaking for pedos.

 

[jax7]

You can call it what you want, but a Catholic must abide by pronouncements of the Pope. There are things that I would change if I was the Pope. But I’m not.

A cult is organized around a charismatic person. The Church is not organized around a person, but an institution — apostolic succession dating back to Christ himself. As a Catholic, I do not subordinate my will and judgment to another man; I subordinate my will and judgment to the collective wisdom of two millennia of Saints unfolding into and through the present.

@jax7
Read this, please.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/distinctly-catholic/has-ewtn-schism-begun

I read that the day it came out. I find it funny that this and other "Catholic" publications along with the msm would rather turn this into a conservative vs liberal war than what it actually is. A massive cover up that needs exposed along with the full truth of all involved regardless of the political or theological leanings of those involved!

I ask you why did we have total round the clock coverage while JPII was at the head of the barq of Peter during the Boston scandal, but barely a peep when their fellow traveler Francis is embroiled in controversy. Then, what you do hear is that it's a smear campaign by conservatives who don't like his liberal policies. How can you not see the hypocrisy? Wrong is wrong and it demands justice.

You still have not explained why he would bring these Cardinals who were proven to be complicit if not actively involved with cover ups back into priestly duties. Not only that, but right into his inner circle. I'm sorry but his status as Supreme Pontiff does not make him immune to just criticism and questions.

I don't know how to break this to you, but the schism had began 60 years ago. The implementation of a protestantized mass, rewriting the teachings on religious liberty, and all the other ambiguous teachings of VII which were easily distorted by the modernists. For the record I'm not a against attending the new mass. Just that it is inferior and prefer the mass of the saints.

You speak of TRADITION yet you don't adhere to it. You act as if the novelty teachings of Francis ( Amoris latittia, death penalty, etc) jive with "two millennia" of teaching. It does not.

He has brought the homosexualists into power and pushes their agenda along with that of the modern lefts political views (environmentalism, unfettered migration, etc) as if they are religious tennents that must be held for salvation. Speaking of which, when was the last time he even tried to preach about salvation and the necessity to follow Christ? Oh that's right he even cast doubt on the dogma of an actual hell. And if one of his Bishops does preach the gospel he is called a rigorist. Imagine that a rigorist for following the gospel.

You are a Neo ultramontane! You would have us put no limits on his authority, regardless of it's compatibility with Tradition. I find it our duty just as the remnant during the Arian crisis to resist and follow these good bishops who like St. Athanasius stay true to the apostolic faith.

 

[jax7]

I've been in some dry spells in a kid and never had the urge to fuck a kid or a dude.

I don't even buy the hay dude in prison scenario.

Rapists tend to get off on the idea of overpowering and forcing other people. There are known rapists that rape both sexes aiming for the weak.

That explains prisons.

It could also explain the child molesters that aren't attracted to kids (gonna need some sources on that).

And I don't know why you think picking an occupation or hobby that gives you access to kids would be considered a big undertaking for pedos.

I will never understand the celibacy=pedophile argument. If these men wanted to break their vows they would just find a woman. How people think it would turn you into a raging pedo is beyond me.

Many priests have girlfriends and even children. This is a serious mortal sin.
But nothing near the level of pedophilia. A sin which cries to heaven for taking advantage of a child. Which our Lord said it would be better that a millstone was tied about your neck and drowned than suffer divine punishment.

 

[luckyshot]

I read that the day it came out. I find it funny that this and other "Catholic" publications along with the msm would rather turn this into a conservative vs liberal war than what it actually is. A massive cover up that needs exposed along with the full truth of all involved regardless of the political or theological leanings of those involved!

I ask you why did we have total round the clock coverage while JPII was at the head of the barq of Peter during the Boston scandal, but barely a peep when their fellow traveler Francis is embroiled in controversy. Then, what you do hear is that it's a smear campaign by conservatives who don't like his liberal policies. How can you not see the hypocrisy? Wrong is wrong and it demands justice.

You still have not explained why he would bring these Cardinals who were proven to be complicit if not actively involved with cover ups back into priestly duties. Not only that, but right into his inner circle. I'm sorry but his status as Supreme Pontiff does not make him immune to just criticism and questions.

I don't know how to break this to you, but the schism had began 60 years ago. The implementation of a protestantized mass, rewriting the teachings on religious liberty, and all the other ambiguous teachings of VII which were easily distorted by the modernists. For the record I'm not a against attending the new mass. Just that it is inferior and prefer the mass of the saints.

You speak of TRADITION yet you don't adhere to it. You act as if the novelty teachings of Francis ( Amoris latittia, death penalty, etc) jive with "two millennia" of teaching. It does not.

He has brought the homosexualists into power and pushes their agenda along with that of the modern lefts political views (environmentalism, unfettered migration, etc) as if they are religious tennents that must be held for salvation. Speaking of which, when was the last time he even tried to preach about salvation and the necessity to follow Christ? Oh that's right he even cast doubt on the

I’m sorry I responded to you in good faith. You have none.
1. There hasn’t been media coverage of this scandal? Umm... I just tried google and got several million hits, including every “MSM” outlet imaginable— most with multiple editorials and follow up stories.

2. If you are still bitching about the changes of Vatican II, I don’t know what to tell you. You are a living in a world that no longer exists, and as a result you have hardened your heart against the living Church. But at least your on the record as an admitted schismatic now, so I no longer have to be deluded that you are a Catholic.

3. You speak of TRADITION... Know what is “traditional” for a Catholic? Listening to the fucking Pope! That includes when the Church’s social teachings respond to the the crises of the times... such as, yes, humanitarian emergencies (migrant crisis) and threats to civilization (climate destabilization). You either believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in teachings of faith and morals or you don’t.

4. Under whose papacy did these abuses take place that are now coming to light? That would be Saint JP II. Who, by the way, established the clerical response strategy of paying off victims , shuffling around wrongdoers, and never acknowledging the problem in public... much less APOLOGIZING. Which Francis HAS done, even though these abuses have largely not occurred during his papacy.

I’m sorry, you don’t get to be a Catholic who doesn’t listen to any of the Church’s teachings that have come out in his lifetime! You are the definition of a Protestant.

 

[jax7]

I’m sorry I responded to you in good faith. You have none.
1. There hasn’t been media coverage of this scandal? Umm... I just tried google and got several million hits, including every “MSM” outlet imaginable— most with multiple editorials and follow up stories.

2. If you are still bitching about the changes of Vatican II, I don’t know what to tell you. You are the definition of having an axe to grind. But at least your on the record as an admitted schismatic now, so I no longer have to be deluded that you are a fellow Catholic.

3. You speak of TRADITION... Know what is “traditional” for a Catholic? Listening to the fucking Pope! That includes when the Church’s social teachings respond to the the crises of the times... such as, yes, humanitarian emergencies (migrant crisis) and threats to civilization (climate destabilization).

4. Under whose papacy did these abuses take place that are now coming to light? That would be Saint JP II. Who, by the way, established the clerical response strategy of paying off victims , shuffling around wrongdoers, and never acknowledging the problem in public... much less APOLOGIZING. Which Francis HAS done, even though these abuses have largely not occurred during his papacy.

GOOD FAITH? YOU STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PROVEN AND GUILTY MEMBERS OF THE POPES DIRECT INNER CIRCLE! Will you not condemn his choice of advisors?

I see using the word peep was misplaced, but I believe you got the jist of my point. Why are they focusing on theological differences or liberal vs conservative narrative instead of the ACTUAL ISSUE which is what Pope Francis knew and when. Did he reinstate McCarrick after hearing of these valid allegations? Why wasn't it a liberal war against JPII and now it's a conservative war against Francis. You know why, because it wasn't! Neither is this. It's valid allegations.

You see that, I also acknowledge him as Pope and hold NO contradicting theological opinions outside of the faith. So sorry not a schismatic or heretic.

How am I on the record? By saying I will follow Orthodox Bishops over Hetrodox ones? Or by denying the heresy of ultramontaneism? Stop being dramatic and silly. Calling someone a schismatic because they dislike the novelty introduced after VII and prefer the Latin Mass is childish. I would suggest you attend a better cathechism class if you would pronounce me a schismatic for preferring the Nearly 2000 year old liturgy to the 60 year old one.

And again I admire your zeal, but really your just silly. While I might have to take it under strong consideration, his personal teaching on CURRENT social problems are not dogmatic. If and when he makes a dogmatic pronouncement I will abide.

What does it matter who it occurred under if Francis played an active part in another cover up. Why is this an issue? They were all gulity to some degree. Just because McCarrick happened under Paul VI through JPII doesn't mean Francis gets free pass to bring McCarrick back from the restrictions imposed by Benedict.

what about covering for Maradiaga and Daneels. What about the priest inzoli who Benedict defrocked, Inzoli was brought back by Francis and he abused again! What do you say about this?

I implore you to look up these names then tell me why the Holy Father would keep company with them? Is it not scandalous? This wasn't about redemption and mercy. They where brought back to active duty not years of pennance and prayer in a remote monastery.

P.S. please tell me all these new dogmatic teachings. I'll be waiting.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I've been in some dry spells in a kid and never had the urge to fuck a kid or a dude.

Good for you, I'm glad

I don't even buy the hay dude in prison scenario.

Rapists tend to get off on the idea of overpowering and forcing other people. There are known rapists that rape both sexes aiming for the weak.

That explains prisons.

That's not mutually exclusive to what I said though. Certainly there can be and likely is an element of that at play but its not like the people who commit rape behind bars are all behind bars for rape.

It could also explain the child molesters that aren't attracted to kids (gonna need some sources on that).

Here's something, a professional opinion I just Google'd

"It is very important for the public to understand that most child molesters are not pedophiles," Finkelhor told me over the phone. "[Many people] have the impression, when you talk about someone being a pedophile, that they have a permanent and unalterable sexual interest in children and, therefore, they are going to be dangerous under any circumstances and under any form of management—and that's not true," he says, adding that pedophiles constitute a minority of those who sexually abuse children, or who are child molesters.

But why, then, would they abuse kids? The reasons are myriad, according to Finkelhor. "Because they don't have other access to sources of sexual gratification is the main reason—or that child may be very readily accessible, so someone who is a member of their family, for example," he says, adding that it has a frequent occurrence amongst those who might be primarily attracted to mature individuals as well.

Even the behavioral unit of the FBI recommends a distinction between preferential child molesters(i.e. pedos) and situational ones. In fact, couldn't the argument you made about prison rape also apply here? That its about power and not involuntary attraction? Who could be more powerless than children?

And I don't know why you think picking an occupation or hobby that gives you access to kids would be considered a big undertaking for pedos.

If we were talking about being a babysitter then sure its not much of a commitment but becoming a teacher or entering the priesthood is a little more involved. Sure it could happen but to assume that accounts the phenomenon in its entirety seems like a stretch to me.

 

[FlippyHambone]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/vatican-official-says-pope-francis-should-resign-abuse-1.4799495

Can we just take a moment to appreciate just how fucked up this really is? There's an organization which has a proven record of systemic child sexual assault, from the lowest to the highest ranks, and the head of the organization knew about some of the allegations for years before they finally became public.

This is fucked up on an Alex-Jones-Lizard People-Pedophiles conspiracy level, only that it's 100% true, beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt.

Why isn't there an internationally sanctioned probe into the Catholic church which would force the Vatican to give full access to its historical records? Were this any other organization - like a business - this is exactly what would happen, while probably shutting down operations. These people belong in front of human rights tribunals, they're no better than a Milosevic or a Saddam.

The protections religions are afforded must end. They should be treated like any other organization, subject to the same scrutiny of laws that secular organizations are.

The Catholic Church has been illegitimate for over 50 years. Sede vacante.