Law Florida - Senate passes Republican sponsored Bill to outlaw lab-grown meat. DeSantis supports ban

[panamaican]

So is that a yes to opposing a ban on lab grown human meat? There's no such thing as "common ways to obtain" human meat.

Sure, if we lived in a purely capitalist society, but we don't, and we have very heavy central planning. Nearly every major corporation and industry receives subsidies, preferential taxation and loopholes, heavy regulation often written by lobbyists for those industries, so if we're going to have such hands on planning already, fishing and farming seems like a pretty good choice to protect.

Cultured meat certainly isn't a self-funded endeavor, it's had $2.8 billion in investment from governments and venture capital.

State of the Industry Report: Cultivated meat and seafood | GFI

This report details the commercial landscape, investments, regulatory developments, and scientific progress in the cultivated meat and seafood industry.

gfi.org

Unprecedented government support for cultivated meat​

• In Europe, the Netherlands announced $65 million in funding for cultivated meat and precision fermentation, the world’s largest-ever public investment in the cellular agriculture field.
• Israel, China, and South Korea all increased policy support for cultivated meat development.
• The U.S. Congress directed nearly $6 million in research funds to alternative protein R&D. California approved the first-ever state investment in cultivated meat research, directing $5 million to R&D across three labs, two of which focus on cultivated meat.
• Israel launched the largest government-backed cultivated meat consortium to date, involving the country’s top food producers and academic labs.

I have no idea what they are planning on doing at some unspecific point way in the future, but the cultivated meat isn't even available for consumers currently, so you can pocket that question and come back to it when they start pumping out fake meat that it's significantly cheaper to buy that real meat. If voters demand it, I'm sure they'd be willing to, or they can give it to bums or something.

Right now the cost isn't anywhere close.


In 2013, the first clean burger cost $325,000. While the price has decreased dramatically since then, current estimates range from $363 to $2,400 per pound, making it much more expensive than regular meat. (A pound of conventionally produced lean ground beef costs less than $6. Organically raised beef typically costs about a dollar more.)

It's not a yes on banning lab grown human meat. We lab grow all sorts of human components already. Meat is just muscle and we already grow that in a lab. So, no, I don't oppose lab grown human muscles because it would literally set back science and medicine by decades.

I agree we're not in a purely capitalist society. But you haven't laid out an argument against lab grown meat except from an economic protectionist perspective. Protecting an industry from competition. And not even international competition, domestic competition. So, a capitalism based response makes sense here.

The protectionism argument is weak. If you have a stronger one, you should present it.

 

[Skarsgard]

Sounds like lobbyists at work.

 

[Lucas1980]

Good for Florida...once again. I'm sure some muppets will hate on this just because its Florida .

 

[panamaican]

What has banning cultured meat got to do with whether it should be legal to grow human meat?

It's a deflection. Rather than debate the specifics of why lab grown cattle meat should or shouldn't be illegal, he's shifting the argument to one that's really about cannibalism.

It's specious. For this line of debate to be analogous, cattle meat should already be illegal. It's a weak argument. Here's the thing -- we lab grow human meat already. Meat is just muscle. And we grow that in labs all of the time. Hence the speciousness of the argument -- he's really trying to argue about the morality of eating humans so that he can avoid the debate about eating lab grown cattle.

 

[Staph infection]

Good, we need real food. We also need to remove GMO products and let’s get US produce into markets and grocery stores.

Some ground beef seems like it may already be lab grown. I buy my ground beef at Publix down here in Florida and they now a ground beef called market ground beef. It had a very red hue to it and it cooks differently compared to their normal ground beef (sirloin, chuck). It is also oxidizes very quickly. If you buy it and don’t use it within a day it gets a great color whereas the others will hold a day or two.

 

[nostradumbass]

It's a deflection. Rather than debate the specifics of why lab grown cattle meat should or shouldn't be illegal, he's shifting the argument to one that's really about cannibalism.

It's specious. For this line of debate to be analogous, cattle meat should already be illegal. It's a weak argument. Here's the thing -- we lab grow human meat already. Meat is just muscle. And we grow that in labs all of the time. Hence the speciousness of the argument -- he's really trying to argue about the morality of eating humans so that he can avoid the debate about eating lab grown cattle.

No, detective, I'm pointing out that none of you trying to make your argument about "capitalism" and "let the free market decide" even believe that yourselves. It's not particularly convincing when left wingers suddenly pretend to be selective libertarians.

Lab meat does not stand on its own, it's a money pit that that isn't even available for public purchase. The most optimistic estimates are that maybe one day years and years from now with tens of billions more in funding, they could eventually get the price down to double what meat currently costs and have controlled scarcity. The most optimistic upside is putting farmers and fishermen out of work and doubling the price for consumers for a product with no long term testing and controlled scarcity.

Like I said, there are plenty of places more hostile to farmers and consumers where they can work the bugs out, and you're free to bring it back up for discussion once they've worked those out, but until then, Florida, Texas and Arizona don't seem to have much interest in the project.

 

[Skarsgard]

Why the hell ban it?? Jesus that's almost as bad as mandating it.

Holy god it's a fucking win-win. All the people who have issues concerning animal rights get proper nutrition without hurting animals. People who have arthritic or chemical issues with red meat can now EAT AS MUCH RED MEAT AS THEY WANT, since it can be engineered in a way that's catered to their biology

What the fuck is wrong with everyone?? Do you hate choices???

They hate choices unless it's their choice.

 

[Sinister]

Ok. But why do you want to ban it for everyone else? Why can't the free market decide? If people want to eat this stuff, who are you to tell them they can't?

Small government conservatives are a myth.

To be fair, they're small Government towards ideologies they like, and especially to the wealthy class they admire. Heavy-handed large Government for everything that terrifies or disgusts them.

Cuz freedomz!!

 

[terrapin]

It doesn't matter who makes it, the point is that as long it's safe (and there is no evidence it isn't ) people should have a choice. Why are these Republicans against people having choices.

I posted earlier that there seems to be no rhyme or reason to Republican stances on these kinds of things.

They seem to favor big business over human beings and over the environment as a rule and yet here we have potential giant lab grown meat corporations threatening to take over the cattle industry and they're protecting the cattle industry. It's hard to know who they're going to choose to protect.

We like to camp a lot, so we're very aware that the cattle industry destroys BLM land and makes it way less enjoyable to be on. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to allocate so much water and land resources to cattle ranchers. It's a subsidy basically that we give them. That's all funded by the taxpayers dollar too.

And also there's many people like myself who don't eat meat for moral reasons. We would love the opportunity to have lab grown meat. We could have that protein we've evolved to need and yet would not have to kill any animals in order to get it. If anyone has done a deep dive into mass meat production and the slaughter of farm animals, it is truly a disgusting industry and there is just an immense amount of unnecessary and untold suffering that goes on in the meat production industry and labgrown meat has to potential to end all of that suffering forever!

And then there is the issue of global warming and how much cattle raising contributes to that and this would also solve that problem.

So the only downside is an outdated and unnecessary technology for meat production is no longer needed and so of course Republicans are going to stand against it.

 

[MicroBrew]

No, detective, I'm pointing out that none of you trying to make your argument about "capitalism" and "let the free market decide" even believe that yourselves. It's not particularly convincing when left wingers suddenly pretend to be selective libertarians.

Lab meat does not stand on its own, it's a money pit that that isn't even available for public purchase. The most optimistic estimates are that maybe one day years and years from now with tens of billions more in funding, they could eventually get the price down to double what meat currently costs and have controlled scarcity. The most optimistic upside is putting farmers and fishermen out of work and doubling the price for consumers for a product with no long term testing and controlled scarcity.

Like I said, there are plenty of places more hostile to farmers and consumers where they can work the bugs out, and you're free to bring it back up for discussion once they've worked those out, but until then, Florida, Texas and Arizona don't seem to have much interest in the project.

What is contradictory about saying this ban is anti capitalist and anti libertarian and also not being in favor of eating lab grown human flesh?

Society is generally against legalizing hard drugs like Fentanyl yet society is capitalistic. I don't see the contradiction here. There are a lot of things that society has banned, so does that mean America is anti capitalist.

As @panamaican says, you are just trying to deflect and sidetrack from the O.P. because you know there is no real way to defend the proposed ban by FL Republicans; with support from DeSantis. In your attempt to defend them your whataboutism is trying to argue that cannibalism should also be ok.

 

[MicroBrew]

WTF? You guys realize that I'm the one who said every corporation and major industry is
subsidized, right? Glad you all agree that "omg, he's not letting the free market decide" was a silly argument, and we already do have a heavily planned economy.

So now that we've all acknowledged that the government already does intervene on behalf of certain companies and industries, we can return to the actual conversation of which ones. Farming and fishing actual meat has been around forever, actually works and is a cheaper and more abundant source of food than some nonsense with no long term testing that produces fake meat for 100x the price.

So since every major industry is subsidized to varying degrees why even single out cultured meat?

 

[panamaican]

No, detective, I'm pointing out that none of you trying to make your argument about "capitalism" and "let the free market decide" even believe that yourselves. It's not particularly convincing when left wingers suddenly pretend to be selective libertarians.

Lab meat does not stand on its own, it's a money pit that that isn't even available for public purchase. The most optimistic estimates are that maybe one day years and years from now with tens of billions more in funding, they could eventually get the price down to double what meat currently costs and have controlled scarcity. The most optimistic upside is putting farmers and fishermen out of work and doubling the price for consumers for a product with no long term testing and controlled scarcity.

Like I said, there are plenty of places more hostile to farmers and consumers where they can work the bugs out, and you're free to bring it back up for discussion once they've worked those out, but until then, Florida, Texas and Arizona don't seem to have much interest in the project.

Are you going to respond to my other post instead:

It's not a yes on banning lab grown human meat. We lab grow all sorts of human components already. Meat is just muscle and we already grow that in a lab. So, no, I don't oppose lab grown human muscles because it would literally set back science and medicine by decades.

I agree we're not in a purely capitalist society. But you haven't laid out an argument against lab grown meat except from an economic protectionist perspective. Protecting an industry from competition. And not even international competition, domestic competition. So, a capitalism based response makes sense here.

The protectionism argument is weak. If you have a stronger one, you should present it.

Your above post completely disregards what I said to you. Let the free market decide. The free market already allows people to lab grow human tissue. There's no market for consuming it, only medical applications.

If there's no economic viability for lab grown meat, as you suggest, then farmers and fishermen have nothing to be worried about because their product will always be cheaper. But to argue that farmers and fishermen need economic protection from a product that you don't even think has market value is inane. And if there's no economic protection needed then what is the argument for banning it, other that general government overreach?

Certainly not the completely irrelevant "human meat" argument you're proposing because we already do that legally. To the best of my knowledge, Florida hasn't banned medical procedures that use lab grown human tissue.

 

[panamaican]

What is contradictory about saying this ban is anti capitalist and anti libertarian and also not being in favor of eating lab grown human flesh?

Society is generally against legalizing hard drugs like Fentanyl yet society is capitalistic. I don't see the contradiction here. There are a lot of things that society has banned, so does that mean America is anti capitalist.

As @panamaican says, you are just trying to deflect and sidetrack from the O.P. because you know there is no real way to defend what the proposed ban by FL Republicans, with support from DeSantis. In your attempt to defend them your whataboutism is trying to argue that cannibalism should also be ok.

It's such a false argument. Florida hasn't banned medical procedures that use lab grown human tissue, commonly known as regenerative medicine and tissue engineering.

And they haven't banned eating people either, lol.

 

[Loiosh]

I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.

Riverdancing.

 

[Sinister]

MPU cranking out the bangers. In this video is mentioned the price point setting done by intermediary entities in meat processing. What processors, you want lab grown meat out of the market and meat made more affordable? This is the problem we need tackled:

 

[nostradumbass]

What is contradictory about saying this ban is anti capitalist and anti libertarian and also not being in favor of eating lab grown human flesh?

Society is generally against legalizing hard drugs like Fentanyl yet society is capitalistic. I don't see the contradiction here. There are a lot of things that society has banned, so does that mean America is anti capitalist.

As @panamaican says, you are just trying to deflect and sidetrack from the O.P. because you know there is no real way to defend what the proposed ban by FL Republicans, with support from DeSantis. In your attempt to defend them your whataboutism is trying to argue that cannibalism should also be ok.

Are you going to respond to my other post instead:



Your above post completely disregards what I said to you. Let the free market decide. The free market already allows people to lab grow human tissue. There's no market for consuming it, only medical applications.

If there's no economic viability for lab grown meat, as you suggest, then farmers and fishermen have nothing to be worried about because their product will always be cheaper. But to argue that farmers and fishermen need economic protection from a product that you don't even think has market value is inane. And if there's no economic protection needed then what is the argument for banning it, other that general government overreach?

Certainly not the completely irrelevant "human meat" argument you're proposing because we already do that legally. To the best of my knowledge, Florida hasn't banned medical procedures that use lab grown human tissue.

Neither of you are libertarians, so it's obviously disingenuous when you suddenly pretend to be Mr. Libertarian Man for select projects you support.

Pan, we're clearly talking about food, not you deflecting to medical procedures that have nothing to do with food laws.

State and federal governments have lots of food laws about GMOs, cottage foods, fermentation, labeling, food storage, licensing, taxes and regulations, health inspection, wages, farm conditions and equipment, what foods you can or can't sell, so pardon me for laughing at you suddenly pretending you're libertarians.

Since you are the ones complaining, how about either of you give an argument in favor of lab meat that isn't you suddenly pretending to be a libertarian that we know you don't believe in, or a bizarre tangent about skin grafting?

 

[Joe]

The main good of lab grown meat is that it will end the holocaust of animal slaughter and mass production that we call the meat industry.

The good of this far outweighs any damage it might do to existing farmers on any level.

Not to mention that animals of today that we use for feed are hardly natural

 

[RoastBeast]

I'm against lab grown meat, but I don't think the government should get to decide.

Agreed. Unfortunately with all the "legal" monopolies controlling most major markets, the people don't really have much of a say in this either.

It's like how "Round up ready" crops should be completely banned, yet they aren't. Avoiding them is next to impossible if you want to live a normal life (you basically can't eat at a restaurant ever again). You also need to have extra cash on hand and be on your toes at all times in order to avoid them. It's just simply not feasible for the average person to avoid this stuff so unfortunately it requires the government to protect us from these predatory corporations. But they won't because those corporations are bribing them.

If our laws on monopolies and "lobbying" were revamped, the market would work a lot better and we would need a lot less government involvement. Unfortunately that would require politicians to cut themselves off at the knees, which they won't do.

 

[Natural Order]

Soylent Green is people!!!

 

[panamaican]

Neither of you are libertarians, so it's obviously disingenuous when you suddenly pretend to be Mr. Libertarian Man for select projects you support.

Pan, we're clearly talking about food, not you deflecting to medical procedures that have nothing to do with food laws.

State and federal governments have lots of food laws about GMOs, cottage foods, fermentation, labeling, food storage, licensing, taxes and regulations, health inspection, wages, farm conditions and equipment, what foods you can or can't sell, so pardon me for laughing at you suddenly pretending you're libertarians.

Since you are the ones complaining, how about either of you give an argument in favor of lab meat that isn't you suddenly pretending to be a libertarian that we know you don't believe in, or a bizarre tangent about skin grafting?

What does being a libertarian have to do with anything? I've always been a small government conservative. I argue against government intervening in people's private decisions all of the time.

We're talking about food which is why your deflection to "human meat" didn't make sense. No one eats human meat so lab grown human meat was irrelevant but you made that your focal point anyway.

Here's a very simple argument for lab grown meat: If company can produce safe lab grown meat, they should be allowed to market it as an alternative to cattle and chicken. If there's a market for it, good for them. If there's no market for it, sux for them. It's no different than any other food product produced in a lab.

For example -- my dad was a research chemist on some Pringles flavors. Lab created flavoring. Vitamins are lab created. The list of food products that have their origin in a lab is pretty extensive. So long as they are safe, people are allowed to make their own choice on whether or not to buy it.

And please stop the "you're not a libertarian" schtick. It's irrelevant. Rather than debating the validity of the subject matter, you're pretending that if you accuse people of the right or wrong political affiliation, it alleviates you from making a coherent argument. (which is why you punted the "make an argument" point back to me instead of putting forward an argument in support of the ban yourself).

Let me show you why it's a deflection: Aren't you a conservative? Doesn't that mean you oppose government overreach? When did you become an economic socialist, using government to control the means of production. As a conservative, you must oppose government intervention in the markets.

See how dumb that is?